26

(89 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Temple Wang wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
Temple Wang wrote:

restaurants-spite-spitefulness-restaurant-menu-spleen-03401263_low.jpg

While I have your attention (again) what is your opinion on a member using false identities to get around blocking, for example, aka, Charly Ring, Bevin Wallace, Bill Weldon, Van Alsen.  Interesting that the aborigine from Australia, Wallace, and the Vietnamese, Alsen, have the same bugaboo in preferring the word quaver over quiver when the two have the same meaning when used as a verb, but quaver is rarely used in American English.

Dunno, Chuck.

Of course you don’t actually have an opinion on anything but I’ll just just keep asking nevertheless to  see how your statement on facts vary.

27

(89 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Temple Wang wrote:

restaurants-spite-spitefulness-restaurant-menu-spleen-03401263_low.jpg

While I have your attention (again) what is your opinion on a member using false identities to get around blocking, for example, aka, Charly Ring, Bevin Wallace, Bill Weldon, Van Alsen.  Interesting that the aborigine from Australia, Wallace, and the Vietnamese, Alsen, have the same bugaboo in preferring the word quaver over quiver when the two have the same meaning when used as a verb, but quaver is rarely used in American English.

28

(89 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Well, doesn't it suck that I can't give an honest, unvarnished opinion on this topic!   As a newbie three times over (since 2005?) I do remember a change from a site containing members inclined to give impersonal and honest content review, thumbs up or thumbs down, to now a kaffeeklatsch of Chardonnay sipping chatterers. Not that that there is anything wrong with that, mind you, but it could explain an off-putting nature for newbies, who are not the only ones who will neglect to thank a reviewer, but certainly the only members who never thank, or comment, and resort to delete a newbie review and block the newbie reviewer for giving an honest Simon Cowell opinion.

29

(2 replies, posted in Writing Tips & Site Help)

Dirk B. wrote:

Can someone please tell me if my use of wearing is correct? One of my reviewers says it should be wear, and he's probably right, although I find it odd to write it that way.

Calabrese was the only priest at Orfanotrofio di San Nicola who never stooped to wearing the simple uniform of the other priests: black shirt, black pants, and a tabbed collar.

"to wear' is 100% grammatically unambiguous and 100% understandable; "stooped to wearing" depends on the idiomatic use of verb "to stoop" with subsequent "to" and altering a verb "to wear" into a gerund, "wearing."  If the author wants a looser, vernacular narrative he will use a grammatically looser structure  like this latter construction {*} and blends the voice of omniscient narration with POV dialogue for no beneficial effect for the reader {**}.

{*} because it is more common in speaking than the "to wear" construction for enigmatic reasons because "to wear" is shorter and simpler and clearer.

{**} and to this reader 100,000 words in the same voice regardless whether in dialogue or in narration that have the exact same style is boring.

For the benefit of those who missed it, what is the name of your forthcoming book and what is it about? When do you think it will be released and how much will it cost and which literary awards do you predict it will win?

and you misspelled "dog".

Dirk B. wrote:

My current WIP
(...)

There is an accursed in-your-face approach to your method seeking enlightenment.

33

(11 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Kdot wrote:

Only core world rules can be assumed (eg airlocks vs transporters). I would cite Stargate as a model to follow. Mind you, I don't like Stargate, but their model is hard to fault. On par with B5, though Straczynski commits the misstep of losing the middle-road consumer

Stargate is a complicated example, don't you think? It had multiple books, 3 TV series, and more movies spun off from a blockbuster movie: simple cowboys in space theme with a tiny core of seed information to remember. SGU TV series,  on the other hand, had to be watched from the beginning, and easily in isolation from the original SG1 in core information, certainly more complicated and engaging, suited to a different sort of audience, continually updated from season 1 through season 2.  Too bad it just sputtered to an end rather than with a planned resolution/finale. To an extent it is what is not right with such serialization in lacking coherence (say, based on a single novel in its beginning to end) that U.S. TV production (versus U.K., generally) do by milking a limited core of seed material to death. Never watched B5 past the second episode - in evidence that this reader of novels takes the liberty of  skipping further into the book to sample what is ahead - making no sense of judging a novel on the basis of the first thousand words or first chapter.

34

(11 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Kdot wrote:

In the lower range, you'd charge $0.99 (Amazon's lowest) then lower it to $0.50 on Google and hope Amazon price-matches.

Pretty much the same question: how are you incentivizing anyone to pay for a book in an expensive way by dribs and drabs. I thought the point would be to tease (cost-free) to buy the entire book. On the other hand,

Kdot wrote:

The people doing well with it say that each episode provokes sales on other episodes and that's how they can turn a profit (plus provoking sales on related full-price books,

you imply that an "episode" is self-contained (not really a serialization of a novel) without a need to buy the "overarching" book, just maybe more episodes in which the math rules out buying all episodes for anything less than an entire book. Are these episodes like episodic TV shows essentially?

35

(11 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Kdot wrote:

eBook, kindle specifically

But then aren't you stuck with the problem of getting people to notice they exist (marketing)? I would say the purpose of serialization is marketing through a free medium, or even better being paid per word in the old days.

36

(4 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dirk B. wrote:

Will, if you're interested, a bunch of us have gravitated to the Medieval Fantasy/Magic forum for brainstorming. It's a diverse group, including various fantasy, science fiction, and thriller stories.

There developed a cultural phenomenon when sci-fi gravitated away from science into medieval fantasy, quite early on from the mid-1960's with Dune, exemplified by the Star Trek (science)/Star Wars(medieval fantasy) divide. Linking this to the Strongest Start contest would it not be a good standard if an author signals in the first thousand words the sub-genre type of sci-fi he is crafting! Fantasy, especially of  the YA type, signals this quickly, often effecting a strong start of this type, but sci-fi writers do not do this and only eventually drift off into fantasy fairly unrelated to science at all. Where are the Asimov's who know science?

37

(11 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Kdot wrote:

I've been doing a lot of research into serializing a novel (which is significantly different from simply cutting it into bits and releasing them in order). I've been considering releasing one of my stories in this format since it kind of over-arches the other novels, but I can't make enough compelling arguments to do it.
. . .

Serializing into what publishing format? Much has changed since the time when King could publish serials in magazines and be paid per word.

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-it-wrong-t … tasy-novel
Why is it wrong to use italics to show internal dialogue when writing a fantasy novel?

It is not exactly ‘wrong’, but using a blocks of italics are not quite appealing to the readers’ eyes. Italics are used to emphasize, it is hard to read if it forms a huge block of text- I myself have to squint very hard to read italics.

It is like using UPPER CASE for the WHOLE BOOK. Isn’t very good-looking, is it?

Fantasy readers tend to read quickly, tearing through the book so I think action is more important than long monologues that seem will never end. Jane Eyre is a classic great book, contains chapters of monologues, which is annoying for teenagers that want a fantasy novel- but different people like different books.

Okay back to the principal, italics can be used with occasional thoughts.

Oh this is not good, I think, but what else can I do other than standing here and watch, I cannot help him.

Compare to this:

Oh Jesus Christ, this is not good, not good at all! I try to figure out what to do but my brain seems blank and unable to think. How can I help him? What can I do? I cannot just stand here and watch- that is obviously useless! Dear god, is he going to survive? What if… no! No he will not die, he will not! I got to help him… but I cannot do anything.

39

(0 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Writing unaffixed dialogue with more than two characters works in principle by the same consistent alternation method with self-identified speakers:

Standard:
“Blah,” said Joe.
“Blah, blah?” asked Jill.
“Blah, blah, blah.”     (Joe again)
“Blah, blah, blah, blah.” (Jill again)
Etc.

Until shortly the reader loses track of who is speaking. And the author reassigns dialog tags.  The primary reason a reader will lose track is the lack of distinction of “voice” of the two speakers. In genre fiction written only for entertainment value, extended dialogue without (omniscient narrated) action is rare, and thus identification tagging occurs through associated action.

“Blah,” Joe said as he hit Bob.
Jill put herself between Joe and Bob. “Blah, blah?”

In Examination of Serious Coincidence Through Dialogue with the Dark Prevailer, part 23
https://www.thenextbigwriter.com/postin … t-22-25545

all action is narrated through one of four characters, Amanda, and as such presents like a first-person narrated story. The exception to this sort of narration is that Amanda does not act in a quasi-omniscient narrator identifying who-says-what. Identification is presented through dialogue itself and maintained by the distinct voices of the particular characters: Amanda, the storyteller, and Claire, a woman of few words acting in capacity of sounding board.

In addition to the two principal characters are Chaz, distinguished by his words included in quotation marks, and the unidentified Dark Prevailer of the title -- in italics. Only the DP’s nature and purpose in the story is ambiguous to the reader, and that is his purpose in the story. The italics could mean Amanda’s internal monologue, could mean an internal dialogue (hallucination or dream fragment), could mean a supernatural entity (a known unknown), could mean a natural, but not understood, entity (an unknown known), or magical entity (an unknown unknown). In this case, and for any author who wants to use a punctuation device like italics, one is hampered -- corralled into pseudo-convention--  by the meme of italicizing internal monologue for which there is already a standard device of quotes with “she thought” tagging.

Next: distinction by voices of characters.

40

(0 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Heretofore I have defined unaffixed dialogue as internal monologue, thoughts and musings, and subconscious underpinnings to active thought. I will expand this later to include a character that may or may not exist, or exist as an internal dialogue (rather than monologue, or possibly not) at the same time.

part one https://www.thenextbigwriter.com/forums … t-one.html

part two https://www.thenextbigwriter.com/forums … final.html

Jill hit Jack with a spoon. How dare he say vanilla ice-cream tastes bad.
"What did you do that for?"
"You're mean!" I need to play hard-to-get.

Expressing internal monologue (most simply say: thought) associated with words or action through italics following on those words or action in the same paragraph (although not always by every author) is a meme among a subset of genre-fiction writers and not a generally accepted rule. It limits the use of italics rather than leaving a degree of freedom for an author to keep using italics to express a word or words offset from the context of the rest of the words such as is the most common use for emphasis, for example.

However, the following is as much a standard way of using italics - to express a word or words offset from the context of the rest of the words – in placing words expressed by another character at a different time or place. The difference between the two is in this latter there is expressed a rule for deciphering within the text itself. In the former there is no means other than having already memorized a rule known from somewhere else, but in the latter the rule is contained within the paragraph itself.

Old man Max. That’s what Alec began to call me when he was ten. I replaced my Porsche with a Jag on my forty-ninth birthday. C’mon, how many times are you going to be forty-nine? The smart aleck said. Old man with his old-man car. I had thought him to be a quiet, even rather stupid boy, when he was little. A phone call in the night changed my mind. Should I kill them?

Essentially this is another means to express dialogue in the standard way:

“Old man Max” is what Alec began to call me when he was ten.
I replaced my Porsche with a Jag on my forty-ninth birthday.
"C’mon, how many times are you going to be forty-nine?" the smart aleck said.

There is a fluidity attained both with omitted dialogue tags and compression into one paragraph all the elements of two characters in different time and place. This sort of thing is important when combining the words, actions, and thoughts of more than two characters. Next.

41

(4 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Temple Wang wrote:

Welcome, John.  This forum is dead, by the way, so if you seek social interaction, you’d best seek that elsewhere.  LOL

Discouraging anyone within this forum to post or to have joined will result in your removal.

42

(4 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Hi John. The forum concept on TNBW is something that didn't fly after the first year, so all forums are "dead" in a sense that members do not interact so much for social chit-chat, and I discourage that here, nor seem to want to converse  to topic. The exceptions are in the fantasy and sci-fi forums.

As moderator here I can speak to the fact that I do not treat this forum as if a blog where I or anyone writes and everybody else reads without interaction. So, I suspect that is a reason for a sense of deadness.

If you want to post to the topic I am pleased to reply. The primary issues have been "just what is literary fiction?" and "the importance of style over plot."

I am curious to what you consider "literary fiction" and how your writing fits that.

Temple Wang wrote:

I see three other options (in addition to Chuck’s

Of course, you do. You prefer to change meaning away from the author's intent by dropping the connection between the guy being too pious and his being unsuitable as a friend. The sentence in my corrected form conveys more information than your final edited version: not liked, not a friend, and too pious.

njc wrote:

Alessandro never liked Connor, considering him to pious to be his friend.

Though in an informal, breezy voice I'd go with your original version.

, *-ing blah blah. is as correct as:

Bob and me love pole dancers, considering them dangling boobs and all.

There is almost always a disconnect between the intended subject and a trailing -ing participial modifier, so, at least, the first of the following two is better in being in proximity to the subject:

Having five kids and another one on the way, my mother always keeps the ironing board up.
My mother always keeps the ironing board up, having five kids and another one on the way.

https://menwithpens.ca/dangling-participles/

https://www.theguardian.com/media/mind- … articiples
Excuse me, but I think your modifier is dangling
There are far too many, just hanging around and annoying the reader. It's time to cut them down.

Dirk B. wrote:

I'm almost afraid to ask another grammar question, lest I unleash another kerfuffle, but here goes. :-)

Can someone please tell me if the second sentence is considered grammatically correct? I prefer the way it reads, and I've seen it used by an experienced author with whom I trade reviews.

Alessandro never liked Connor, considering him too pious to be his friend.

Alessandro never liked Connor, considered him too pious to be his friend.

Or do I need to use a period instead of the comma?

Thanks
Dirk

Alessandro never liked Connor and considered him too pious to be his friend.

46

(29 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Temple Wang wrote:
Temple Wang wrote:
Marilyn Johnson wrote:

“Who’s been inside since the body was discovered?”
“Just Father Coppola, the paramedics, and I.”

Break this answer down as follows: 
“Just Father Coppola.”
“Just the paramedics.”
“Just I.”

As you can see, the “Just I” doesn’t work.  If you change it to me, it works.  Since it’s dialogue, you’re free to use whichever version you so choose, but she’s not in the habit of using incorrect grammar in any of the previous sentences, so why would she here?

I suggest:  “Aside from myself, just Father Coppola and the paramedics.”

“(Just) Father Coppola (has).”
“(Just) the paramedics (have).”
“(Just) I (have).”

The word “just” is irrelevant.

A vast swath of the population is going to feel better saying “me” in spoken English, and that’s acceptable, because that’s become a “norm” (whether it’s “grammatically correct” or not).  Language is a living, breathing thing, and common usage changes what’s considered “acceptable”—and in some cases, the rules themselves change to adapt to common usage.  So, to that segment of the population, “I” is going to grate on the ear.  But just because something grates on your ear doesn’t mean it’s wrong.  It might just mean your ear’s a curmudgeon ...

As a "reviewer" who would dictate your own meaning into the author's words, you would say that, wouldn't you? As to style of choice of words, even assuming equality of meaning and grammatical propriety between two choices, and that is not the case here, the author's preference, often from his first instinct as a native speaker of the language and immersion from birth in the culture of its origin, is primary over any reader's opinion.

47

(29 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Kdot wrote:

Edit / disclaimer: I didn't originally read "just" as modifying the nouns after it. I read it initially as "merely"

[Merely] Father (has),  paramedics (have), I (have)

Reading the just the way Marylin has, forces the nouns into the accusative. Just read this way implies "It was only X,Y,Z". There's an invisible subject pronoun affecting each noun

[Affected] father, [affected] paramedics, [affected] me

Yes, she forced a different meaning from what the author had written.

48

(29 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Kdot wrote:

Interesting aspect introduced there.

Consider the "just" applies to a group of three.

Just (us)

Just (Father,paramedics,[me])

You could never get away with : Just (we)
It follows you cannot use : Just (Father,paramedics,I)

Just us or just me is idiomatic of object following on an adverb. There is no need to edit the amended version which is grammatically normal and clear in meaning.  Just (us)= Just (Joe, Bill, and I).

49

(29 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Marilyn Johnson wrote:

“Who’s been inside since the body was discovered?”
“Just Father Coppola, the paramedics, and I.”

Break this answer down as follows: 
“Just Father Coppola.”
“Just the paramedics.”
“Just I.”

As you can see, the “Just I” doesn’t work.  If you change it to me, it works.  Since it’s dialogue, you’re free to use whichever version you so choose, but she’s not in the habit of using incorrect grammar in any of the previous sentences, so why would she here?

I suggest:  “Aside from myself, just Father Coppola and the paramedics.”

No.  The “just” in the original collectively contains the elements, but your  breakdown changes that meaning to just one element in isolation to the other two. So your suggested editing changes the meaning of what the author intended.

50

(36 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Norm d'Plume wrote:

Waiter: Your choice of entrees this evening are lobster, salmon, hamburger, steak and fried chicken.
You: I'll have the steak and fried chicken.
Waiter: No, you have to choose one.
You: I did. You said steak and fried chicken. That's what I want.
Waiter to Manager: Harry, put a damn comma after steak in the menu!

On the menu we have spam, and eggs and bacon; spam, eggs, and bacon; hash browns and spam, and eggs; eggs and spam, spam, and eggs.

On the menu we have spam, (Oxford comma) and eggs and bacon; (semicolon to separate items in long list) spam, eggs, (Oxford comma) and bacon; hash browns and spam, (Oxford comma) and eggs; eggs and spam, (Oxford comma) spam, (Oxford comma) and eggs.

In well articulated speech, a long pause for the semi-colon, shorter pause for Oxford comma, and very short pause for the common comma.

Items like eggs and bacon and eggs and spam with no comma before and are items of a combined nature separated by Oxford comma, after, or semicolon, before.