1 Topic by Dirk B. (edited by Dirk B. 2019-07-07 22:38:33)

Topic: I versus me - Grammar

I researched the use of I versus me before writing the two sentences below. One of my reviewers flagged the "I" at the end as incorrect.

De Rosa asked, “Who’s been inside since the body was discovered?”
“Father Coppola, who is waiting at the police tape, the paramedics, and I.

I chose "I" at the end because I read the sentence as short for:

"Father Coppola, who is waiting at the police tape, the paramedics, and I have been inside.

Is my understanding correct?

Thanks
Dirk

Quote Post 1

Re: I versus me - Grammar

I'm sure I say "me" when I shouldn't lots of times. But in this case, I'm asking which is grammatically correct.

Quote Post 2

3 Reply by B Douglas Slack (edited by B Douglas Slack 2018-11-30 04:20:56)

Re: I versus me - Grammar

I'd rewrite the second sentence as:

"Me, the paramedics, and Father Coppola, who's waiting at the police tape."

May not be grammatically correct, but it's how I'd speak the line.

Bill

Quote Post 3

Re: I versus me - Grammar

I'm used to using "me" in cases like this when I speak, but wanted to go for accurate grammar in my old age. I suspect eventually me will triumph over I as the English language continues to devolve.

Quote Post 4

Re: I versus me - Grammar

You're right, Dirk.

And I would say 'I'.  My teachers knew what they were doing.

Quote Post 5

Re: I versus me - Grammar

Use of "I" is correct and natural to native speakers of proper English. The parenthetical nonessential dependent clause "who is...," while correct, is unnatural in dialogue and is what probably makes the final "I" awkward. However, if the speaker is speaking in a pseudo-formal fashion like a cop, it is appropriate.

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Re: I versus me - Grammar

The bit about waiting at the police tape is irrelevant to the question asked; it also reads like pedantic stage direction.  I don’t know what all the hubbub is about grammar and proper English.  This is dialogue.  You could write it like a real humans speaking:

“Who’s been inside since the body was found?” De Rosa asked.
“Just me, Father Coppola, and the paramedics.”

Quote Post 7

Re: I versus me - Grammar

Doesn't it depend on who the narrator is? If he was an English teacher, he might talk in a grammatically correct way.

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Re: I versus me - Grammar

Yes, dialogue depends on the speaker.  Especially in Cornwall.

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10 Reply by Temple Wang (edited by Temple Wang 2018-11-30 21:34:03)

Re: I versus me - Grammar

alkemi wrote:

Doesn't it depend on who the narrator is? If he was an English teacher, he might talk in a grammatically correct way.

No, the narrator has nothing to do with the dialogue of a particular character, per se.  It depends on who the character/speaker is.  In the novel chapter in question, all the characters are Italian and speaking Italian, including the POV character.   English is merely the language used to convey the story (which obviously throws a monkey wrench into things).  The character/speaker in question is a police officer (Italian), so likely not the kind to be speaking with a pretentious air.

The problem with this dialogue has nothing to do with I/me, IMHO.  The whole line needs rewritten so that it sounds like realistic dialogue.  That’s the first step.  The I/me question in dialogue is certainly worthy of debate, and it is absolutely dependent on the speaker, but the example given isn’t really the best to use as the basis for the discussion.

Quote Post 10

Re: I versus me - Grammar

I would be one of the last persons to render a verdict on the technically correct use of I vs me, but I do know what sounds natural in conversation and as Temple has pointed out quite rationally, the example used to start this thread ain't it. Take care. Vern

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12 Reply by njc

Re: I versus me - Grammar

If the narrator is a first person narrator, then surely it should matter.  I'm thinking now of =The Moonstone=, whose multiple narrators have each their own voice.  A more modest example is John Dickson Carr's =The Arabian Nights Murder=, which is in its way a minor classic.

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13 Reply by vern (edited by vern 2018-12-01 03:23:30)

Re: I versus me - Grammar

njc wrote:

If the narrator is a first person narrator, then surely it should matter.  I'm thinking now of =The Moonstone=, whose multiple narrators have each their own voice.  A more modest example is John Dickson Carr's =The Arabian Nights Murder=, which is in its way a minor classic.

The way I look at it, a first person narrator is in effect one of the characters in the story and is going to have a distinct voice much like the character whose story is being told in first person. As such, unless the character who is being represented by the first person narrator also speaks technically correct in his/her dialogue then it would seem unlikely that the same person as a narrator would speak technically correct all the time. The "voice" would sound unnatural in such a case in my grammatically ignorant though socially experienced opinion. Take care. Vern
Edited for PS: ***Well, when Tom and me got to the edge of the hilltop we looked away down into the village and could see three or four lights twinkling, where there was sick folks, *** Appropriate sample from the first person narrator, Huck Finn, using the voice -- and the me -- of the character.

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Re: I versus me - Grammar

njc wrote:

If the narrator is a first person narrator, then surely it should matter.  I'm thinking now of =The Moonstone=, whose multiple narrators have each their own voice.  A more modest example is John Dickson Carr's =The Arabian Nights Murder=, which is in its way a minor classic.

“No, the narrator has nothing to do with the dialogue of a PARTICULAR character, PER SE.   IT DEPENDS on who the character/speaker is.”

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15 Reply by njc

Re: I versus me - Grammar

I'll go further.  To the extent that you are writing in a close PoV, the narrator's vocabulary and some grammar choices should reflect the character, using words that the character might use, because it that character who is being represented by the words.

But it is hard to see how the I/me issue arises there.

Quote Post 15

Re: I versus me - Grammar

Goodness. All I wanted was for someone to verify my grammar. :-)

I agree that the second sentence needs rewriting. The new version is a clipped "Father Coppola, the paramedics, and I." The speaker is a senior constable, whom I felt would want to speak intelligently among his peers and, in this case, his superiors.

Thanks to all for your feedback.

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17 Reply by Temple Wang (edited by Temple Wang 2018-12-01 07:33:21)

Re: I versus me - Grammar

Dirk B. wrote:

Goodness. All I wanted was for someone to verify my grammar. :-)

I agree that the second sentence needs rewriting. The new version is a clipped "Father Coppola, the paramedics, and I." The speaker is a senior constable, whom I felt would want to speak intelligently among his peers and, in this case, his superiors.

Thanks to all for your feedback.

When you have a grammar question, you might consider checking a reputable grammar website or the grammar appendix of your dictionary, both of which address such simple rules.  (If you had merely typed  “I versus me” in Google, rather than throwing red meat to this bunch, you’d have got yourself a definite answer in about thirty seconds rather than, well....)  Alternatively, if you are serious about writing, then you should own a good reference.  I suggest you invest in one or a few.  Here are a couple:

Woe is I - Patricia T. O’Connor (grammar)
The Chicago Guide to Grammar, Usage and Punctuation

Researching these sort of things on you own is a good way to actually “learn” the rules.  Posting a simple question to a group like ours is a recipe for, well, precisely what you got...

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Re: I versus me - Grammar

alkemi wrote:

Doesn't it depend on who the narrator is? If he was an English teacher, he might talk in a grammatically correct way.

What is so unusual about narrating in a proper fashion? Saying only an English teacher speaks English in a grammatically correct way is like saying only a man of the cloth acts in a moral way. Unless an affectation of subculture is depicted through narration, speaking in a grammatically correct way is correct because by definition grammar is the logic of syntax, semantics, and morphology people have spoken in  the language for generations. I actually think it is offensive to suggest that a writer ought to try to not use proper grammar as is the current practice among non-fiction publishing editors to force de-gendering the universal personal pronoun "he/him" by mixing it up with "she/her."

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Re: I versus me - Grammar

vern wrote:

I would be one of the last persons to render a verdict on the technically correct use of I vs me, but I do know what sounds natural in conversation and as Temple has pointed out quite rationally, the example used to start this thread ain't it. Take care. Vern

Of course, I would ask a foreigner how to speak English in a natural way.

Quote Post 19

Re: I versus me - Grammar

I already researched it before posting here. See the first sentence of my first post. I was looking for an second opinion because one of my best reviewers told me to use "me".

I appreciate the feedback from those who replied to I. :-)

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21 Reply by Charles_F_Bell (edited by Charles_F_Bell 2018-12-01 09:21:29)

Re: I versus me - Grammar

njc wrote:

I'll go further.  To the extent that you are writing in a close PoV, the narrator's vocabulary and some grammar choices should reflect the character, using words that the character might use, because it that character who is being represented by the words.

But it is hard to see how the I/me issue arises there.

Huckleberry Finn and Flowers for Algernon are exceptionally good examples of narration in non-standard English, and common in non-standard English is the I/me issue being defined as the improper use of subject (I) versus object (me). Tom and me found the money that the robbers hid in the cave...  but Twain does not begin the book with You don't know about I.... There is a logical consistency to a non-standard English of a vernacular, a kind of grammar of its own, that works within its own fashion because it is logical. John Hamler here does that here on TNBW.

Quote Post 21

Re: I versus me - Grammar

“Who’s been inside since the body was discovered?”
“Just Father Coppola, the paramedics, and I.”

Break this answer down as follows: 
“Just Father Coppola.”
“Just the paramedics.”
“Just I.”

As you can see, the “Just I” doesn’t work.  If you change it to me, it works.  Since it’s dialogue, you’re free to use whichever version you so choose, but she’s not in the habit of using incorrect grammar in any of the previous sentences, so why would she here?

I suggest:  “Aside from myself, just Father Coppola and the paramedics.”

Quote Post 22

23 Reply by Temple Wang (edited by Temple Wang 2018-12-01 15:18:23)

Re: I versus me - Grammar

Marilyn Johnson wrote:

“Who’s been inside since the body was discovered?”
“Just Father Coppola, the paramedics, and I.”

Break this answer down as follows: 
“Just Father Coppola.”
“Just the paramedics.”
“Just I.”

As you can see, the “Just I” doesn’t work.  If you change it to me, it works.  Since it’s dialogue, you’re free to use whichever version you so choose, but she’s not in the habit of using incorrect grammar in any of the previous sentences, so why would she here?

I suggest:  “Aside from myself, just Father Coppola and the paramedics.”

“(Just) Father Coppola (has).”
“(Just) the paramedics (have).”
“(Just) I (have).”

The word “just” is irrelevant.

Quote Post 23

Re: I versus me - Grammar

Marilyn Johnson wrote:

“Who’s been inside since the body was discovered?”
“Just Father Coppola, the paramedics, and I.”

Break this answer down as follows: 
“Just Father Coppola.”
“Just the paramedics.”
“Just I.”

As you can see, the “Just I” doesn’t work.  If you change it to me, it works.  Since it’s dialogue, you’re free to use whichever version you so choose, but she’s not in the habit of using incorrect grammar in any of the previous sentences, so why would she here?

I suggest:  “Aside from myself, just Father Coppola and the paramedics.”

No.  The “just” in the original collectively contains the elements, but your  breakdown changes that meaning to just one element in isolation to the other two. So your suggested editing changes the meaning of what the author intended.

Quote Post 24

Re: I versus me - Grammar

Interesting aspect introduced there.

Consider the "just" applies to a group of three.

Just (us)

Just (Father,paramedics,[me])

You could never get away with : Just (we)
It follows you cannot use : Just (Father,paramedics,I)

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