76

(2 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dirk B. wrote:

However, doesn't the summary through dialogue of his experiences make it all "telling" rather than "showing"?

No.  However, it can be done clumsily like often in TV shows, very much like it is the author with an agenda rather than telling a story.  Telling a story is perfectly permissible when the author is telling a story. The show/tell distinction is over-rated except in post-modernist POV, usually first-person, literature.

77

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

No, John Dickson Carr, who also wrote as Carter Dickson.  His best?  Open to taste, of course, but I'd suggest =The Sleeping Sphinx= (Gideon Fell), =The Lost Gallows= (Henri Bencolin), and =She Died a Lady= (Sir Henry Merrivale).

Wikipedia puts him exactly within the Brit/Christie type, having lived in England in his 20's in the '30's. So, yes, probably not something I am interested in. Interested in an updated Chandler, perhaps.  Would also like a notion of what the expert editors and literary agents say sells in U.S. My guess is the "romance suspense" of Robyn Carr - also not something I am interested in.

78

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

True also of most of Christie and Carr.  Not so for Ellery Queen, since Queen comes in with his policeman father.
Starting the story before the murder lets the reader see the conflicts and tensions from which the murder arises, and even wonder who the victim will be.  It gives context which can make the death more dramatic, or carry its ripples through to the reader.
I think the question to ask is "Is the opening a story that engages the reader?"

The contrast can be seen also in Law & Order and Law and Order: Criminal Intent  My entertainment experience with murder mystery is via television Cop Shows. Some were more direct than others, Columbo being nuanced versus the cheesy ones like Mod Squad that involved boring social issues. These shows are limited to 44 minutes or so and therefore are forced into getting to the point quickly in contrast to a novel. I read Christie and Conan Doyle in youth and found them meandering like P.D. James now. There is likely a difference between American and Brit (versus Raymond Chandler of the same era, perhaps). I find the quality of writing irrespective of other elements in James superior to any American, but my sample error is too great to generalize because I may have only read two or three by Americans whose names I cannot remember.

I am guessing you do not mean Jack Carr (action thriller). Google tells me there is a Robyn Carr, author of "romantic suspense."

79

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

dagny wrote:

Charles_F_Bell
This strikes me as a masochist's  success. You can get that from Wang Chung here in a "review" that is one-third correct, one-third wrong, and one-third only an opinion. To the ignorant/naive that may look like help.

Charles,
I really didn't see it that way, but as a hint that maybe I should invest in a mystery writing course to see how off base I really am. My ego says the man never read a mystery novel in his life, but my brain tells me that I don't know everything and a little education never hurt anyone. The course I chose is reasonably priced, has a six week duration and will show me what I know and what I don't.

I've gotten really good feed back from this site, Charles. Good editing, good plot advice and reviewers have asked me the tough questions a mystery writer needs to expose holes. I've tried every workshop online and this is the best for getting your work read right away instead of waiting weeks to get your work posted on the main page. So, I'm pretty happy here.

dags smile

Wandering off the import of my original comment on the topic, opening lines, you have though made an interesting point about entering into a field of genre writing one may not be immediately competent to pursue. My mind is set on writing what I like and liking what I write, but suppose on a lark, let's say I did decide to write a murder mystery, what be the advice I should follow in the first chapter that you might have learned from the referenced site?  For example, I get the sense from reading a few murder mysteries, but mostly having watched movies and TV shows of that genre, the dead body will or will not be introduced quickly within the plot.
Hypothetical first line:
It was a dark and stormy night when Ferd Berfal entered Winterfalls Mansion to find his uncle lying dead in the anteway.
I cannot fathom a logical explanation for rejecting this except to point out that successful murder mystery writer P.D. James does not do that. In fact, she takes a long time before exposing the crime at all. As (an impatient) reader I find that annoying and prefer the Law And Order approach to lay out the crime within the first two minutes. How does an editor draw a line?

If you do not like this example, pick one of your own. Getting past spelling, punctuation, grammar, and basic elements of style, what in particular did you find helpful from the referenced site to write the opening lines of a murder mystery?

80

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

dagny wrote:

Well, this should really upset Charles. I got my critique  back and it ripped apart my submission. No agent would touch it. It was rejected. So...Charles, I would say based on that, Richard Bradburn is a legitimate editor, and someone worth listening to.
Even though I am crestfallen, it's not easy to hear your stuff stinks on so many levels, I will rally and consider it a learning experience.
sad

This strikes me as a masochist's  success. You can get that from Wang Chung here in a "review" that is one-third correct, one-third wrong, and one-third only an opinion. To the ignorant/naive that may look like help.

81

(0 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

I have changed the group description to: Literary fiction is a term used in the book-trade to distinguish fiction that is regarded as having literary merit from most commercial or "genre" fiction.  Unlike genre fiction plot is not the central concern. 

For this I pinched from Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_fiction] which I recommend reading.

In there is also the previous sort of description for this group: A concern with social commentary, political criticism, or reflection on the human condition that is only so good as it means, for example, including the trials of a drug addict in fiction alone does not make that book literary fiction.

The question-begging term is "literary merit," of course.

Briefing for a Descent into Hell by Doris Lessing - Yes
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone by J.K. Rowling  - No

I would use the primary distinction as the (un)importance of plot as primary concern and not any relevance of social commentary.

82

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

There's Mr. Hamler in the Army of Qin Terracotta Warriors, somewhere crowded into the middle.

83

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Mariana Reuter wrote:

I think this is the right time to consider this thread closed.

Suin made a useful contribution by pointing at a professional editor who, on his website and for free, analyses the first 1000 words of stories uploaded by writers, highlighting weaknesses—or strengths—agents and publishers care about.

Suin laid a tool—and an editor—that can be used—consulted and even hired—by those TNBW writers who prefer to do so.


And I disagree that it is useful, and to some extent even harmful, and I gave my reasons.

But in the narrow, bigoted bubble in which you live, disagreement is not to be permitted.

Now the thread is closed.

84

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

I don't know.

Oh. In my 25 years of online chat whether formal, or casual, it has always been a violation of netiquette to correct spelling and grammar. Easily the most identifiable argumentum ad hominem or just plain impolite.

I prefer to ask whether the others on the forum will consider it a useful contribution.  This varies with audience of the forum, small clubby group versus everybody.

Democracy deciding the discursive impact of argumentum ad hominem over a forlorn hyphen sounds like mob rule by a very silly mob.

85

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

Topic drift?

No better way to set a topic adrift than to correct grammar and spelling within a forum discussion.

Agree or disagree?

86

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

Topic drift?

Interestingly, it is not an unrelated topic to this one of establishing an objective basis for evaluation (or not).

But I should save it for Literary Fiction Forum (when I get the time, alas) so as not to bother you with it.

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(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Charles_F_Bell wrote:
njc wrote:

Topic drift?

No better way to set a topic adrift than to correct grammar and spelling within a forum discussion.

On the other hand, the topic of Orwellian concept destruction through socialist prescriptivist alteration of word meaning is a fascinating topic, should you or anyone wish to engage and learn all about the uses and abuses of gender identification and climate change. Interestingly, it is not an unrelated topic to this one of establishing an objective basis for evaluation (or not).

88

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

Topic drift?

No better way to set a topic adrift than to correct grammar and spelling within a forum discussion.

89

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Suin wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:


Yes, and thank you for that, but is there any objective standard by which one can judge his opinions having any value?

Charles, I pay fees to tNBW each month to receive reviews from other writers who are just like me - people who enjoy writing, who manage to squeeze an hour or two of writing and reviewing into their busy week, and who are not professional/published writers. Then, I found out that I could submit my work to The Opening Lines and receive a free review from a person who is dedicated full-time to writing and editing. I didn't blindly accept and implement his feedback, but valued it, just like I value the opinions of my fellow writers on tNBW. To me, any feedback is helpful. I hope this answers your question.

Yes, it does answer the question to the extent of your motivation. Many people do not use objectivity as a standard for evaluation and even deny such exists.

90

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Temple Wang wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
Temple Wang wrote:

Since this is an editing site: it’s “ad hominem

nope, two-word expression used as a single adjective. Generally, hyphenate two or more words when they come before a noun they modify and act as a single idea.   "The logical fallacy is ad hominem." is the conceptual adjective representing a single idea  behind ad-hominem

Wrong.  It’s a Latin expression (against the man OR to the person) in its entirety and, as such, is not hyphenated.  But I admire your spunk.

It is derived from Latin ("to the man") but by itself is no pertinent concept. The concept is Ad Hominem Logical Fallacy or Logical Fallacy of the argumentum ad hominem to be properly represented as an adjective of a single concept, ad-hominem, in a sort of abbreviation. Not hyphenated it is literally gibberish in context, to the man lizard.

91

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
vern wrote:

You certainly make the case for "Silence is golden." Take care. Vern

Once again, there are two or three of you who wish to make this forum battering rams of personalities and not an exchange of information and ideas. If you look at what might have been my only post on this subject, for the OP did not wish to engage, you made no attempt to broach the topic I put there:

Yes, and thank you for that, but is there any objective standard by which one can judge his opinions having any value?   

It can be a yes-or-no question, and even if that doesn't say much, it's honest, and I have said that the subject matter is mostly within a realm of unknown knowns, and the truest answer is:I don't know, but I know what I like. An answer absolutely not coming from that webmaster.

If one looks at the history of your posts, it will become clear who is the battering ram of personalities. It is true, I made no comment on the post you mention because your history has shown a civil discourse with you is futile. Thus, my response regarding silence was an option far from the battering ram you allegedly perceive, I reckon. Take care. Vern

Again, no interest in discussing topic but rather me. I gave you three chances to say something pertinent through reiteration of subject matter, but again, just about me from you.

92

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Temple Wang wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
Temple Wang wrote:

Regards,
Empress Wu

and we hear from ad-hominem lizard number two of three.

Since this is an editing site: it’s “ad hominem

nope, two-word expression used as a single adjective. Generally, hyphenate two or more words when they come before a noun they modify and act as a single idea.   "The logical fallacy is ad hominem." is the conceptual adjective representing a single idea  behind ad-hominem

93

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Temple Wang wrote:

Regards,
Empress Wu

and we hear from ad-hominem lizard number two of three.

94

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Mariana Reuter wrote:

Charles:

People like Suin are likely to be discouraged from making open suggestions and sharing their discoveries within the worldwide web if their post are to be derided.

There was no derision of Suin explicit or implicit in:

Yes, and thank you for that, but is there any objective standard by which one can judge his opinions having any value?

For certainly I respect her as a writer.

There was deserved sarcasm towards you and your cheerleading for partisan purpose precisely because of the way you write and behave in public forum.

95

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
vern wrote:

Silence is quite responsive; it says a great deal should one listen to it. Take care. Vern

Silence is not what came from Empress Wu but irrelevant noise.  Silence can mean several things but often requires a combination of uninterest, ignorance and lack of education.  I reckon you are the exception to the rule.

You certainly make the case for "Silence is golden." Take care. Vern

Once again, there are two or three of you who wish to make this forum battering rams of personalities and not an exchange of information and ideas. If you look at what might have been my only post on this subject, for the OP did not wish to engage, you made no attempt to broach the topic I put there:

Yes, and thank you for that, but is there any objective standard by which one can judge his opinions having any value?   

It can be a yes-or-no question, and even if that doesn't say much, it's honest, and I have said that the subject matter is mostly within a realm of unknown knowns, and the truest answer is:I don't know, but I know what I like. An answer absolutely not coming from that webmaster.

96

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

dagny wrote:

I am suggesting to everyone: beware of all prophets proffering truth. The monetization of same is of secondary consideration.

Charles,

I told you that we were not naive, we were not swayed by faint praise. I also assured you that for most of us this is not our first rodeo, we know to look out for hustlers. This is fact, not opinion.

Had you warned us in the beginning, I think the hard rhetoric between you and others would have been avoided.

smile

I said what I said in the first response as clear skepticism over the validity of the suggested website, and such only after demonstrated reasonable inspection before comment. In turn I asked the OP for her reply as to how I might be wrong.  What is frustrating: no one who opted to comment in any fashion has had anything to say (than Rah! Rah! to OP) except you in tangent from my original premise, and naivety has little to with what I said, really.  So, unless you can examine the site for any specific example of anything submitted that is not obviously awful that does not show the anonymous Irish editor with global clients full of s*** then please do so.

97

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

dagny wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
dagny wrote:

Thanks, Suin! smile

Perhaps you can answer the question on how an editor who claims to have a bunch of global clients is qualified to do what he claims to do. He provides no name  - only a reference to having a connection to the Irish and Canadian publishing markets, a fact irrelevant to an American author looking to write for Americans and perhaps publish in the U.S.A. Presumably he can expect aspiring authors submitting to the free site for busine$$ through clearly referenced Irish website editorial.ie, and no editor's job is to make a work publishable for any reason other than the mechanics of good writing  such as the right and proper spelling the word, "colour" as "color."

Who knew a two word response would elicit such a reaction! Dude, it's just something fun to do. It's not like we're all naive beginners who are going to be fooled into handing over bundles of cash to this editor. Lighten up. smile

I guess I asked you because I could count on opinion forthcoming.

I am suggesting to everyone: beware of all prophets proffering truth. The monetization of same is of secondary consideration.

This is somewhat part 2 of the thread relating to arbitrary selection of Strongest Start which is an unknown known in that we all can tell such a thing exists by what it is not - some awful writing, usually meandering and pointless, but not what it is.  It is also not the Literary Fiction submission I randomly picked off the suggested website, subject of the  thread.

98

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:

Silence is quite responsive; it says a great deal should one listen to it. Take care. Vern

Silence is not what came from Empress Wu but irrelevant noise.  Silence can mean several things but often requires a combination of uninterest, ignorance and lack of education.  I reckon you are the exception to the rule.

99

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Temple Wang wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
Temple Wang wrote:

His email is:  editor@editorial.ie
If you are really so curious, why don’t you just ask him directly?

Skepticism requires interest in the story of the buyer and not the seller. So we have five or so potential buyers so keen on the product of the seller, though it be ostensibly free, but no statements of their reasons.  Furthermore, on the Irish website not giving out free samples, there are the "testimonials", a red flag in the eye of the skeptic.

https://thoughtcatalog.com/ryan-oconnel … ss-boring/

You are unresponsive.

100

(78 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Kdot wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
dagny wrote:

Thanks, Suin! smile

Perhaps you can answer the question on how an editor who claims to have a bunch of global clients is qualified to do what he claims to do. He provides no name  - only a reference to having a connection to the Irish and Canadian publishing markets, a fact irrelevant to an American author looking to write for Americans and perhaps publish in the U.S.A. Presumably he can expect aspiring authors submitting to the free site for busine$$ through clearly referenced Irish website editorial.ie, and no editor's job is to make a work publishable for any reason other than the mechanics of good writing  such as the right and proper spelling the word, "colour" as "color."

Richard Bradburn
It's in there. You have to follow the link from Opening Lines up to the parent site that is his actual editing site and sift through it

Yes, the free site leads to a fee site.