726

(11 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Karin Rita Gastreich wrote:

As a reader, I prefer shorter chapters. It's purely psychological - short chapters make it easier for me to say "One more chapter before I go to sleep!" So when writing, I try to limit the length of my chapters too. Most of my chapters run 2000-5000 words. Some of them are even shorter.

Okay, I've got a better idea of what others might think a long chapter is >6K , longer if the chapter is divided up by
                 * * *
for example?

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

like to be able to finish a chapter and not stop in the middle if I have to leave the story for some reason

the bookmark effect plus logical place to pause

727

(11 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

I have to say that a chapter length should not be determined by how long one can stand reading in front of a computer. I know my tolerance for that kind of reading is short. Even if the computer is an iPad, and I don't have one, so I don't know what might be the difference in the level of strain induced by a desktop or an iPad,  but I do have a Kindle and have grown to dislike it for the reason there is added some weariness to reading by it, I believe there is more to be gained by creating a self-contained story within a chapter than by arbitrarily reducing it according to word length. I am toying with making my current project, a novella of no less than 15,000 words, without chapters, but I have to say there is a handy bookmark effect in creating chapters.  Is there any other reason to divide a longer work into chapters?

728

(10 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

TirzahLaughs wrote:

For me, the easiest definition of literary fiction is fiction that focuses more on the person rather than plot.

... in order to express something of a universal human condition perhaps even to the extent of unrealistic archetypes for the heros and villains. Archetypes are *not* expressed in contemporary naturalism and often ridiculed, and IMO sci-fi and romance could be genres onto which literary-fiction style can give a luster of importance.

729

(10 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Ordinarily I never recommend a wikipedia entry on a general topic, but the entry for literary fiction I think is good

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_fiction

Literary fiction, in general, focuses on the subjects of the narrative to create "introspective, in-depth character studies" of "interesting, complex and developed" characters

Plot
Literary fiction does not focus on plot as much as paraliterary fiction. Usually, the focus is on the "inner story" of the characters who drive the plot with detailed motivations to elicit "emotional involvement" in the reader.

Style
The style of literary fiction is often described as "elegantly written, lyrical, and ... layered".

Tone
The tone of literary fiction is usually serious and, therefore, often darker than paraliterary fiction.

Pacing
The pacing of literary fiction is slower than paraliterary fiction. As Terrence Rafferty notes, "literary fiction, by its nature, allows itself to dawdle, to linger on stray beauties even at the risk of losing its way."

Literary novelists are typically supported by patronage via employment at a university or similar institutions, with the continuation of such positions determined not by book sales but by critical acclaim by other established literary authors and critics.

. . . in the TALK tab (in this regard even more interesting than the article) and critical of the "Literary" tag. [I do not agree 100% of the following, but it has merit in counterpoint] :

I agree with the folks who are arguing that contemporary academic literary fiction as currently practiced is a genre (and is actually among the most rigidly formulaic of genres). One of my friends read submissions for a campus literary magazine, and he reports that the overwhelming majority of the stories submitted were about male English professors having affairs with female undergrads. That's not a formula? Off the top of my head, here are some of the conventions of literary fiction (particularly short fiction): 1) The piece will be contemporary social realism, 2) The protagonist will be an ordinary person, 3) The protagonist will be self-absorbed and self-pitying, 4) The protagonist will not get along with others in his or her social network, 5) The protagonist will spend a great deal of time thinking about the past, 6) The protagonist will come to an epiphany in which he or she grasps the essential truth of his or her situation, 7) The ending will be ambiguous, 8) The prose style will be cool and detached. Obviously not all literary fiction hits all of these points (just as not all science fiction is set in the future), but enough of it does to identify a few conventions, surely.

730

(24 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

garth hallberg wrote:

I'm new to this, so please excuse my ignorance. But why is a group focused on literary fiction worried about some rules that are/might be more appropriate to a first-year college composition course? Long sentences and "useless" words are often what distinguishes a fiction writer's voice, unless you plan on being Hemingway redux.

Literary fiction today, not in the sense of all  the good stuff written decades and a century ago,  has within its style rule-breaking, so it is a first step to understand the meaning, purpose, and common-sense of those rules by which grammar checkers flag a sentence that is too long and how it might be appropriate (or not) to break a long-sentence rule if the first purpose for the author is to create "literature" and not genre pulp fiction that sells to a mass market trained to only read according to rules.  The implication of your assertion is to me that literary fiction means breaking all rules rendering that fiction as unreadable to anyone, and that is untrue if the author wishes to sell his book to anyone other than an academic literary snob who probably finds the book unreadable, too. If a highly literate reader still will skip over a long sentence or paragraph, no matter how beautifully well crafted, there is nothing wrong with trying to analyze the reason, and it may be, alas, the sign of a permanent cultural trend away from meaningful and purposeful prose that is by its nature long and complex.

731

(24 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

I read the article. She makes some valid points. My biggest problem with the article is the weakness of her examples. But I supposed that is her idea of keeping it simple. However, sometimes qualifiers and descriptors are necessary in order to drive a point home or for clarification. It's a fact that we all can learn to work toward perfecting our craft. Nonetheless, it's also important that not all writing will be formula writing and when a person tries to conform to someone else's style, then the author's own voice is lost.

The thought occurred to me today that the examples were from and for simple non-fiction declaratory writing and not creative writing.

Off- topic to this, but relevant, is the criticism of Common Core Language curriculum being dumbed down to only include reading and writing manuals and bureaucratic regulations, and "literature" stripped away.

Ponder this from Oscar Wilde's The Picture of Dorian Gray:

From the corner of the divan of Persian saddle-bags on
which he was lying, smoking, as was his custom, innumerable
cigarettes, Lord Henry Wotton could just catch the gleam
of the honey-sweet and honey-coloured blossoms of a laburnum,
whose tremulous branches seemed hardly able to bear
the burden of a beauty so flamelike as theirs; and now and
then the fantastic shadows of birds in flight flitted across the
long tussore-silk curtains that were stretched in front of the
huge window, producing a kind of momentary Japanese effect,
and making him think of those pallid, jade-faced painters
of Tokyo who, through the medium of an art that is necessarily
immobile, seek to convey the sense of swiftness and
motion.

and

The Importance of Being Earnest:

"In matters of grave importance, style, not sincerity is the vital thing"

732

(24 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

janet reid wrote:

Chick lit is probably a subject for a whole new thread! I'm going to keep that one in my back pocket and use it for a discussion in the the Romance Group.  Not sure it suits Literary Fiction all that much?!  smile

Oh, I think Romance if crafted in a suitable fashion (what I mean is likely to be in Ye Olde Style)  can cross  the gender gap, much like 40's-'60's movies pairing the likes of Bogart and Bacall, not really the Rom-Com movies of today.  You do agree there is a bifurcation in writing to gender tastes in literature today that is bad for literature, per se, and it is a little chicken-or-egg in that men have stopped reading anything other than action/sci-fi (space opera) in fiction and women must be buying 8o% of the novels today?

733

(24 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

janet reid wrote:

My favourite writer, a #1 NY Times bestseller, writes paragraphs that's one sentence - I'm not talking 30-40 words, I'm talking 60+ words.  But there's no need to re-read any of it to figure it out.  In some scenes (love scenes specifically), she shifts between the male and female MC POV's continously (easily 6 or more POV changes) with no separation between paragraphs.

Which author is that?
Like the use of passive-verb sentences leading to boring narration -- but only for some readers, not including myself -- I think there must be something about unmarked change in POV that is confusing/annoying to me, and I wonder if  the reason I cannot get into Romance is  the tendency to swirl POV around . . . and the fact Romance is chick lit. On the other hand, for the male audience, some contemporary Sci-fi does something similar, or that it may be combined with stripping stories completely of any narration at any POV.

At the other end is the POV 100% in 1st-person of an acting character in the novel. That does not work for me, too.  In the Romance genre, but in old-fashioned style, I, more or less accidentally, read I Capture the Castle by Dodie Smith (The Hundred and One Dalmatians) and enjoyed the end-of-the-Edwardian-Era (Downton Abbey sort) with a stiff upper lip attitude and happy ending except for my willing suspension of disbelief was stretched when Cassandra just happened to be hidden under the staircase when she overheard perhaps the most important plot twist of the story.

janet reid wrote:

I'm so used to it, I'm really not the best person to critique the use of omniscient POV that ended up in head-hopping (I don't see a difference to be honest), so I leave that to others!  (that's my excuse at least!)

I reckon I simply prefer to read omniscient narration even if it is old-fashioned and against the contemporary style of show-don't-tell. However, I satirized that same omniscient narrator (and thereby destroying the illusion it creates and incur wrath in editorial opinion) by having him introduce himself:

I fancy I am a recalcitrant chef. I am not so a chef as inclined to give the remunerative diner what is his due. Instead of serving meat cooked to perfection, I will more likely serve a different kind of meat, not cooked, namely, the ephemeral meat of the soul. Such a disobedient cook as I will perchance meet his diner's yawns and droopy-eyed countenance with snobbish disdain.

734

(24 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

janet reid wrote:

We all do it, and that's why we are here. With all the words and thoughts and rewrites and notes, it's easy to miss even obvious and simple mistakes. A new pair of eyes is invaluable to pick out our glaring mistakes.

Not sure if this is related closely enough, but this conversation can probably be extended to a range of other writing rules. POV comes to mind. Many writers have successfully broken the so-called unbreakable POV rules. Of course, first time writers need to be careful as they are still learning, but it can be done.

Janet, romance also tend towards being "wordy", and it works also for that genre. Just another example to support what Charles said.

In relation to POV, there is head-hopping, and I think it, too, relates to an attempt at economy of words by lesser writers. I understand that head-hopping is more permissible in Romance because there is naturally an intertwining of two characters both in action and thoughts. I do not think head-hopping is rightfully a taboo as long as some logical separation such as paragraphing can be made. I have experimented with POV in two ways. (1) Characters are gathered together in one scene but in an impossible way. Some are fictional and some are real (though obviously in reality they are all fictional), and they cannot by time and location be gathered together -- essentially POV is equally shared by everyone except the narrator who is absent.  (2) I also have a 1st person narrator-character alternating with the author and with the neutral, omniscient narrator who does all the {he said, she said, and then and then}.

735

(24 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

janet reid wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

"I want to take the second step after my volunteer work in Africa and return to university to finish my prerequisites for graduate school in Medicine."

Charles, just shows that you shouldn't just simply follow/apply rules blindly.  Sometimes less is more, and sometimes more is more.  The "sticky" bit IMO is to know when is less more and when is more more.  So in the example you have used, if one reviewer had proposed to use less words as per the article, and you had proposed the above, I certainly would have followed your advice in this instance.

And the way I read you comment, you're not saying either that there will never be a case where words couldn't/shouldn't be cut, but rather that it must be needed/justified and not done just to follow some or other "rule"?

Your example certainly opened my limited thinking in regard to using more words to convey a message/concept with clarity rather than trying to be economical to the n-th degree and in the process, not really saying anything.

Janet R

I think unnecessary words would be cut under the old rule of the "wordy sentence," but also under the principle to which I hold (which I know is not for everyone, writer and reader) no word should be cut if it does add information, and the sentence may, in fact, be enhanced by expanding the sentence.  I believe these rules for shorter sentences, un-sticky sentences, and adverb-less phrases are too restrictive and lessen the quality of what we call literary fiction.

He begins his article with:

"As a reader, you can usually recognize a sticky sentence when you have to go back and reread an unclear passage to understand it."

and I think that is wrong.  A sentence that causes one to go back and re-read it may be one containing complex words, phrases, and structure representing complex concepts.  That is a good thing if used wisely. The glue words in a sticky sentence are words like [very, many, somewhat, slightly] and adverbs. I have also read that such glue words are simply passed over by readers (more likely IMO). How can they be both inhibitors and throwaways?   The old rule of proper word choice that subsumes the rule against the wordy sentence applies. "The food was somewhat tasteless" has a different meaning and purpose than "The food was tasteless" even if so subtle, a typical reader will not see the difference, and I believe if that difference is important to the author to convey, he will have to use more words or an additional sentence to spell out the difference, assuming all readers are prone to skimming rather than reading, and indeed it may be better to drop "somewhat" but not under this idea of the sticky sentence.

[update: I will concede that any author has his mind stuck in using certain "glue" words and phrases in a routine way.  Looking over some of my work, I appear to like "very" when its use is rarely necessary.]

736

(24 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Who is making up this crap?

https://www.kibin.com/grammar-rules-blo … er-writer/

Original: “Now I want to go for my second step and go to university to finish my prerequisites.”

Revised: "I want to go to university to finish my prerequisites.”

There has always been the common-sense admonition against the "wordy sentence" and the original does contain the unnecessary words "Now" and "to go for".

That is it.

By eliminating the *reason* for the action, the sticky-sentence corrector gets rid of an *economical*  way to express information within a single sentence.

I correct the wordy original to a longer and more complicated sentence:

"I want to take the second step after my volunteer work in Africa and return to university to finish my prerequisites for graduate school in Medicine."

-------
“Because of what I went through, my desire for being in the medical field has increased even more.”

to

“Because of my experiences, my desire to work in the medical field has increased.”

Oh? And what were those "experiences"?  I would add words to this sentence after "experiences" (what he went through) while eliminating the unnecessary "even more"

and I would *not* begin a sentence with "because" because it makes for an ugly introductory dependent clause. [IMO] Effect should come before Cause because that is how perception of reality really happens.  Replace "because" with its meaning, "for the reason . . ." and the ugliness shows through more clearly.

"My desire to work in the medical field has increased because of my experiences as a volunteer helping the indigent sick at the clinic, travels in Africa, and the early and preventable death of my sister."

My guess is this sentence would be tagged by a style corrector as a too-long sentence.

737

(13 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

Nice to see you back, Charles! You've been on hiatus. I agree about the long sentences. I use them when I want the story to slow down. For real action parts, short and choppy works well. AND I agree about adverbs. Why the hell did I have to teach them to my students if as a writer, I'm not supposed to use them?

Thank you. Tackling a difficult tax problem does not mix well with creative writing. As to rules on grammar and style, most are sensible in a consensus over a couple centuries of English-language evolution, but this new-to-me one to avoid -ly adverbs must have come from some studies with test groups on readability -- much like the "too long sentence" prohibition. I also wish there to be an option in grammar/style checkers to ignore any quoted dialogue because those rules are different. I have enough trouble writing down to include realistic dialogue, and I struggle to figure out how to use and then spell commonly mispronounced words, regional dialects, onomatopoeia, and the last words of a dying man struggling to breathe or the sort of dopey utterances said during sex, for example.

738

(13 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

MrsPiddles wrote:

I also use AutoCrit, which helps me find those long sentences.

.

These style correctors are big on eliminating adverbs. I can see an overuse in a single sentence and perhaps within a single paragraph, but what is the problem with adverbs generally? "He angrily threw the book on the table" has no economy of words versus "He slapped the book down on the table" and does not directly say the "slapping" is from anger rather than from carelessness, for example.

739

(13 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

MrsPiddles wrote:

I'm so so on long sentences. If they're well written I can't tear my eyes away, if not I skip over.

Why skip over? Obviously, if the author bungles the crafting of a complex sentence, and that could be by placing a single punctuation mark in the wrong place, or complicates the complex sentence even more by using ten-dollar words, the sentence loses its effect to compel the reader to pay attention to something that is itself complex, but in that complexity there is intended a strident call: "Pay attention; slow down; I have something important to say." Even if not well crafted, or the work is saturated with them (making the reading a tedious project) , long sentences serve the purpose of conveying a very important databank of information for understanding the story. When a reader skips over a long sentence or paragraph, he misses the "point" of the story that may be contained in just a few words within that complex sentence or paragraph --- the complexity being the setting of the context of those important words. I think such complexity, if held to a reasonable level, that is to say: not tedious, makes the difference between the style for writing to entertain, as base as the level to which the author believes his mass-market reader will sink, and the style for writing literary fiction.

740

(2 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

Participated in Celebrate Literacy--The Magic of Books in Jackson, Mississippi today. Sold a few books, met our governor's wife, and even made a little blimp on the local news! Oh, and spoke briefly to a hopefully rising young film director about getting my Raiford Chronicles on film!

Good show, my lady!  It's a wonder to be a writer *and* a bit of an extrovert.

[We only have Celibate Literacy here, and who wants to show up at that?]

741

(0 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

to SoIL via quickee

Temple: Wang: I'd like to know the reason why Charles Bell is allowed to run amok on your website spreading hate and venom. Typically social websites like this have policies that control misogynic trolls. Can you explain why nothing is being done about him? Thanks

charles_bell: I would like to know why the account of charles_bell was deleted without warning or reason.

The allegation of bad behavior is not enough. Read The Crucible. There is no excuse for a witch hunt when there is no such thing as witches to hunt, and it is those making the false accusation who are the social il.

742

(0 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

To SoIN via quickee:

Temple: Wang: I'd like to know the reason why Charles Bell is allowed to run amok on your website spreading hate and venom. Typically social websites like this have policies that control misogynic trolls. Can you explain why nothing is being done about him? Thanks

charles_bell: I would like to know why the account of charles_bell was deleted without warning or reason.

The allegation of bad behavior is not enough. Read The Crucible. There is no excuse for a witch hunt when there is no such thing as witches to hunt, and it is those making the false accusation who are the social ill.