1 Topic by Dirk B. (edited by Dirk B. 2019-07-07 22:36:26)

Topic: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

My current WIP includes references to God in the form of pronouns (e.g., you, your, he, etc.) primarily when used in prayer. It turns out that well-informed Catholics do not capitalize these pronouns. Neither does the Catechism (the definitive book on Church teaching) and most if not all approved Catholic Bibles.

Here's the tricky part. Many Catholics are not familiar with these rules and expect them to be capitalized. Capitalizing of these pronouns comes largely from Protestants, so there is a great deal of confusion. My target audience is Catholics, then other Christians with a curiosity about the Church, then simple heathens who want to read a supernatural thriller.

I've generally decided that when it came to Catholic elements to the story that I would not stop for info dumps to explain things that Catholics should already know, such as the Catechism. But as for capitalization of pronouns, many of my readers so far expect capitalization. I expect that will be true of the majority of potential readers.

I'm curious what this group recommends about how to proceed. I've now gone both ways and am considering gong back to lowercase. It may be necessary to include a note in the front of the book explaining this. I had one in my content summary, but few bothered to read it.

Thoughts?

Thanks
Dirk

Quote Post 1

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

Dirk B. wrote:

My current WIP
(...)

There is an accursed in-your-face approach to your method seeking enlightenment.

Quote Post 2

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

and you misspelled "dog".

Quote Post 3

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

While there are generally accepted rules in the English language, meaning there are certain conventions when writing in English that all English speakers/writer accept as valid (e.g., capital letter for the pronoun "I"), there are neither rules for EVERY situation nor an authority who may be addressed in case of doubts.

There are Spanish, French, and Portuguese academies accepted by all speakers/writer as authorities. These academies publish rules everybody follows, whether they like it or not. These academies also recognise changes in language trends, rejecting some of them (which are discourage by the public-education systems) and accepting others that are adopted even by those who disliked them. In case of doubt, one can write to the academy and receive an answer.

While there’s no English academy, there are certain institutions regarded as “authorities”, whose recommendations are followed by large group of writers. One of them is the Chicago Manual of Style. I found this comment from them on capitalising pronouns referring to God:

“Chicago lowercases such pronouns, but it’s not wrong to uppercase, especially if you are writing for a religious readership or anyone else who might take lowercasing as a sign of disrespect. In matters of style, in contrast to those of grammar, there are few right or wrong answers. Different houses follow different style guides in order to make their publications consistent.”

https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qa … q0004.html

So, it seems, that in the end it's up to you.

Kiss,
Gacela

Quote Post 4

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

A quick glance https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s … ersion=KJV at Genesis 1:1-30 shows that the pronouns are not capitalized.
Memphis Trace

Quote Post 5

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

Given the person praying in your chapter, I believe he wanted to show reverence for God.  Here's something that may help:  https://www.gotquestions.org/capitalizi … s-God.html

Think it depends on the situation.  But it was a prayer.  Doesn't get much more reverent than that.

Quote Post 6

7 Reply by Temple Wang (edited by Temple Wang 2018-12-17 21:16:57)

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

Memphis Trace wrote:

A quick glance https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s … ersion=KJV at Genesis 1:1-30 shows that the pronouns are not capitalized.
Memphis Trace

Wouldn’t a more relevant example be of a passage of a man praying to God in a work of literary fiction written originally in English in the last hundred years or so?

Quote Post 7

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

Thanks, everyone. The technically correct choice for Catholics is to lowercase the pronouns, although some (many?) Catholics don't realize it. The most common Catholic Bibles in North America don't capitalize the pronouns, nor does the Catechism. I like capitalizing, but the primary target audience is Catholics and the most knowledgeable folks on the Catholic.com forums say not to do it. I'll think about it some more, but I'm probably going back to lowercase.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Quote Post 8

9 Reply by Dirk B. (edited by Dirk B. 2018-12-18 00:38:26)

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

Here we go. This was written by a Catholic priest. https://www.osv.com/Article/TabId/493/A … e-Him.aspx

Capitalizing pronouns (e.g. he, him, his, you, your, etc.) referring to the Blessed Trinity has not been a widespread practice in Christian tradition. In fact, these pronouns are never capitalized in the source documents. They are not capitalized in the Greek text of the Scriptures. Neither did St. Jerome capitalize them when he translated these texts into Latin Vulgate.

Even as the biblical texts were translated into English, the pronouns remained in the lower case. This is true of both Catholic and Protestant translation of the Bible. The Douay-Rheims Bible did not use them, neither did the King James. Neither do more than 30 current or old translations that I consulted online.

Outside the Scriptures, the English translation of the Catechism of the Council of Trent used lowercase pronouns, as does the current Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Thus we see the use of the lowercase for pronouns referring to the Divine Persons in biblical text.

Some years ago, at least in English-speaking countries, there was a pious practice of using the uppercase for pronouns referring to members of the Trinity. However, this practice was neither widespread nor ancient.

As for God’s name being holy, this is absolutely true. Thus, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are capitalized, as is the name of Jesus. 

But pronouns are not proper names — they are, by definition, words that stand for or point back to proper nouns.

One may well argue that such pronouns should be capitalized, but given the widespread and ancient practice to the contrary, one ought be careful not to impugn motives of impiety for those who do not do so.

Done!

Quote Post 9

10 Reply by Memphis Trace (edited by Memphis Trace 2018-12-18 02:46:40)

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

Dirk B. wrote:

Thanks, everyone. The technically correct choice for Catholics is to lowercase the pronouns, although some (many?) Catholics don't realize it. The most common Catholic Bibles in North America don't capitalize the pronouns, nor does the Catechism. I like capitalizing, but the primary target audience is Catholics and the most knowledgeable folks on the Catholic.com forums say not to do it. I'll think about it some more, but I'm probably going back to lowercase.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Relevant in what way?

My opinion is that Dirk B. should capitalize God pronouns in his story because by doing so he will win the hearts and minds of folks in his target audience who think it shows respect for God to do so. Few, if any, readers will rush to the Bible or recent literature to determine that Dirk's creation of a minuscular Christian god is, in fact, respectful.

Dirk's main job is to get the folks who buy religious oriented books to read his book believing the author is respectful of God. I seriously doubt that he would offend anyone who felt God's pronouns shouldn't be capitalized. Indeed, I think readers favoring the minuscular would fondly embrace Dirk B. with the thought Gee, I know more than the author, but I'm glad he is being respectful of God!!!

Capitalization (or not) of the Deity is a human convention. As such, those who wrote the Bible determined that capitalization (or not) was respectful.

Memphis Trace

Quote Post 10

11 Reply by Dirk B. (edited by Dirk B. 2018-12-18 03:42:52)

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

LOL. I just finished changing them to lowercase before you posted, Memphis. I'll have to sleep on it. As I mentioned above, I like capitalizing the pronouns, but I also want to respect Catholic practices and traditions. Admittedly, I'm hoping it gets read by more than just Catholics (e.g., curious Protestants, who might expect caps in their works of religious fiction).

Quote Post 11

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

Dirk, although I'm late to this discussion, I have always heard that pronouns relating to the Christian Deity are capitalized.  From my Harvey's Grammar to my English Grammar for Christian Schools.  It surprises me that Catholics don't.  The only exception being when you are referring to Jesus the man, as then you are stressing the humanity part of his nature.  So that's my two-cents worth.  As to your audience--you are writing an apocalyptic novel and deviating from traditional eschatology and soteriology.  You will attract a lot of Protestants. If you do decide to use lower case, you do need to describe why in the introduction, and a full explanation.  Like the reason why Catholics use the crucifix with Jesus on it, which Protestants consider idolatrous, but Catholics would argue that it's the other way around--that the crucifix should focus us on His (yep, you guessed it, I'm a Protestant) sacrifice, and not on the symbol.

Quote Post 12

13 Reply by Marilyn Johnson (edited by Marilyn Johnson 2018-12-18 18:44:23)

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

OR, you could just get rid of all the pronouns and please everybody and make it more modern:

Father, I come in Jesus’s name. I'm a sinful man, not worthy of grace. I beg for it nonetheless. I've failed many times. But no more.” Romano tried to ignore the agonizing knot in his stomach. “From now on I will bear my cross with joy.  Please strengthen my resolve. I so long to feel the Holy Spirit stir within me—”

~~~
Connor crossed himself. “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. … Father, just as Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, was lifted into Heaven, lift this curse from Alessandro. Hear me, Father, and show us mercy, just as Jesus showed mercy to the lame, the sick, the blind, the possessed, even the dead. Remove this cup from Alessandro. Yet, not my will be done. Amen.”

~~~
Food for thought.

Quote Post 13

14 Reply by Shaina BAKER (edited by Shaina BAKER 2018-12-18 20:52:47)

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

Memphis Trace wrote:
Dirk B. wrote:

Thanks, everyone. The technically correct choice for Catholics is to lowercase the pronouns, although some (many?) Catholics don't realize it. The most common Catholic Bibles in North America don't capitalize the pronouns, nor does the Catechism. I like capitalizing, but the primary target audience is Catholics and the most knowledgeable folks on the Catholic.com forums say not to do it. I'll think about it some more, but I'm probably going back to lowercase.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Relevant in what way?

My opinion is that Dirk B. should capitalize God pronouns in his story because by doing so he will win the hearts and minds of folks in his target audience who think it shows respect for God to do so. Few, if any, readers will rush to the Bible or recent literature to determine that Dirk's creation of a minuscular Christian god is, in fact, respectful.

Dirk's main job is to get the folks who buy religious oriented books to read his book believing the author is respectful of God. I seriously doubt that he would offend anyone who felt God's pronouns shouldn't be capitalized. Indeed, I think readers favoring the minuscular would fondly embrace Dirk B. with the thought Gee, I know more than the author, but I'm glad he is being respectful of God!!!

Capitalization (or not) of the Deity is a human convention. As such, those who wrote the Bible determined that capitalization (or not) was respectful.

Memphis Trace

I agree with that, because that reminds of a book preview I read on Amazon where the author said that she did not capitalize the "s" in Satan because of the wrong he did by her. I did not check if she was Catholic or Protestant, though. Crazy, but capitalization of pronoun related to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit (holy spirit?), has a meaning of itself and is sometimes sacrosanct.

Quote Post 14

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

My thanks to everyone for their thoughtful feedback. The series is intentionally focused on Catholicism, even though I hope others will read it. As a result, my gut tells me to respect Catholic traditions throughout. I'm going to go with lowercase for now and make the final decision when I've finished the first draft of the book.

Thanks
Dirk

Quote Post 15

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

For the benefit of those who missed it, what is the name of your forthcoming book and what is it about? When do you think it will be released and how much will it cost and which literary awards do you predict it will win?

Quote Post 16

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

OMG

Quote Post 17

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

For the benefit of those who missed it, what is the name of your forthcoming book and what is it about? When do you think it will be released and how much will it cost and which literary awards do you predict it will win?

Chucky’s back ....
https://news-cdn.softpedia.com/images/news2/Curse-of-Chucky-Big-Reveal-Tiffany-Is-Back-Video-386713-2.jpg

Quote Post 18

Re: Capitalizing pronouns relating to God - Capitalization

Dirk B. wrote:

My thanks to everyone for their thoughtful feedback. The series is intentionally focused on Catholicism, even though I hope others will read it. As a result, my gut tells me to respect Catholic traditions throughout. I'm going to go with lowercase for now and make the final decision when I've finished the first draft of the book.

Thanks
Dirk

You do what you gotta do, but know that few Protestants will consider reading a Catholic material. As someone put it out, if you want to go ecumenical, using capitalization means a lot to Protestants while Catholic wouldn't care at all. You will therefore take an informed decision, with no surprise as to who picks up your book.

Quote Post 19