Temple Wang wrote:Welcome, John. This forum is dead, by the way, so if you seek social interaction, you’d best seek that elsewhere. LOL
Discouraging anyone within this forum to post or to have joined will result in your removal.
LOL
Welcome, John. This forum is dead, by the way, so if you seek social interaction, you’d best seek that elsewhere. LOL
Aw, man. Kerfuffle’s off his leash again. Who was on troll watch?
Better Call Sol [sic]
I'm almost afraid to ask another grammar question, lest I unleash another kerfuffle, but here goes. :-)
Can someone please tell me if the second sentence is considered grammatically correct? I prefer the way it reads, and I've seen it used by an experienced author with whom I trade reviews.
Alessandro never liked Connor, considering him too pious to be his friend.
Alessandro never liked Connor, considered him too pious to be his friend.
Or do I need to use a period instead of the comma?
Thanks
Dirk
I use a structure like this purposely sometimes, and I know other writers whose style/voice is suitable for this kind of structure. I’m familiar with your work, and the second would stand out as unusual to your style/voice in my opinion.
A period alone isn’t much of a solution. Grammar-wise, you’re missing the subject (though the flexible among us (like me) would argue it’s “implied”). Chuck’s suggestion is fine. However, I think the pause implied by the comma is meaningful. I see three other options (in addition to Chuck’s)—depending on how long you want the pause. [Also, the end of it sounds a little wonky to me, as with three pronouns in short order (“him,” “his,” and the implied “he” preceding the second clause), assigning the antecedents gets a little stumbly. I’d lose one of the pronouns to make it clearer]:
Alessandro never liked Connor—considered him too pious (to have as friend).
Alessandro never liked Connor. He considered him too pious (to have as friend).
Alessandro never liked Connor; he considered him too pious (to have as friend).
THAT SAID: If it were me. I would put a period after “pious” and end it there. That’s a punchier sentence, and I think the friend bit is implied. In fact, some writers (like me), might be tempted to make it even more terse (though this might not fit your style):
Alessandro never liked Connor—too pious.
It’s working fine for I (or is that “me”? LOL)
Marilyn Johnson wrote:“Who’s been inside since the body was discovered?”
“Just Father Coppola, the paramedics, and I.”Break this answer down as follows:
“Just Father Coppola.”
“Just the paramedics.”
“Just I.”As you can see, the “Just I” doesn’t work. If you change it to me, it works. Since it’s dialogue, you’re free to use whichever version you so choose, but she’s not in the habit of using incorrect grammar in any of the previous sentences, so why would she here?
I suggest: “Aside from myself, just Father Coppola and the paramedics.”
“(Just) Father Coppola (has).”
“(Just) the paramedics (have).”
“(Just) I (have).”The word “just” is irrelevant.
A vast swath of the population is going to feel better saying “me” in spoken English, and that’s acceptable, because that’s become a “norm” (whether it’s “grammatically correct” or not). Language is a living, breathing thing, and common usage changes what’s considered “acceptable”—and in some cases, the rules themselves change to adapt to common usage. So, to that segment of the population, “I” is going to grate on the ear. But just because something grates on your ear doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It might just mean your ear’s a curmudgeon ...
“Who’s been inside since the body was discovered?”
“Just Father Coppola, the paramedics, and I.”Break this answer down as follows:
“Just Father Coppola.”
“Just the paramedics.”
“Just I.”As you can see, the “Just I” doesn’t work. If you change it to me, it works. Since it’s dialogue, you’re free to use whichever version you so choose, but she’s not in the habit of using incorrect grammar in any of the previous sentences, so why would she here?
I suggest: “Aside from myself, just Father Coppola and the paramedics.”
“(Just) Father Coppola (has).”
“(Just) the paramedics (have).”
“(Just) I (have).”
The word “just” is irrelevant.
Goodness. All I wanted was for someone to verify my grammar. :-)
I agree that the second sentence needs rewriting. The new version is a clipped "Father Coppola, the paramedics, and I." The speaker is a senior constable, whom I felt would want to speak intelligently among his peers and, in this case, his superiors.
Thanks to all for your feedback.
When you have a grammar question, you might consider checking a reputable grammar website or the grammar appendix of your dictionary, both of which address such simple rules. (If you had merely typed “I versus me” in Google, rather than throwing red meat to this bunch, you’d have got yourself a definite answer in about thirty seconds rather than, well....) Alternatively, if you are serious about writing, then you should own a good reference. I suggest you invest in one or a few. Here are a couple:
Woe is I - Patricia T. O’Connor (grammar)
The Chicago Guide to Grammar, Usage and Punctuation
Researching these sort of things on you own is a good way to actually “learn” the rules. Posting a simple question to a group like ours is a recipe for, well, precisely what you got...
If the narrator is a first person narrator, then surely it should matter. I'm thinking now of =The Moonstone=, whose multiple narrators have each their own voice. A more modest example is John Dickson Carr's =The Arabian Nights Murder=, which is in its way a minor classic.
“No, the narrator has nothing to do with the dialogue of a PARTICULAR character, PER SE. IT DEPENDS on who the character/speaker is.”
Doesn't it depend on who the narrator is? If he was an English teacher, he might talk in a grammatically correct way.
No, the narrator has nothing to do with the dialogue of a particular character, per se. It depends on who the character/speaker is. In the novel chapter in question, all the characters are Italian and speaking Italian, including the POV character. English is merely the language used to convey the story (which obviously throws a monkey wrench into things). The character/speaker in question is a police officer (Italian), so likely not the kind to be speaking with a pretentious air.
The problem with this dialogue has nothing to do with I/me, IMHO. The whole line needs rewritten so that it sounds like realistic dialogue. That’s the first step. The I/me question in dialogue is certainly worthy of debate, and it is absolutely dependent on the speaker, but the example given isn’t really the best to use as the basis for the discussion.
The bit about waiting at the police tape is irrelevant to the question asked; it also reads like pedantic stage direction. I don’t know what all the hubbub is about grammar and proper English. This is dialogue. You could write it like a real humans speaking:
“Who’s been inside since the body was found?” De Rosa asked.
“Just me, Father Coppola, and the paramedics.”
It's probably a spelling thing, but I use a cereal comma on Frosted Flakes. Take care. Vern
Cause you’re a cereal killer ....
Lordy, it’s a wonder you folks get any writing done at all...
Bill’s method is what I have used. I believe it’s the only way. It’s tedious, but it works like a charm. I have used it many times. Never had a problem.
New wrinkle. I probably shouldn't use Italian for some words (e.g., police ranks & organizations) and not for others (e.g., types/ranks of clergy, Catholic Church, St. Peter's Basilica, etc.). And I don't trust Google Translate to give the correct Italian translation for everything I have to name.
Thoughts?
I’d focus on writing your story and just keep a glossary of words, terms you think you might need to deal with eventually and sort it out down the line.
Sounds ambitious.
The only way I can see to do it is to view it from the "X-Line" tab and take screenshots.
That would be tedious. If you wanted a hard copy, it would make more sense to press that “printer” icon on the review and print it (to paper - or a pdf if you don’t want to waste paper and toner).
What’s being discussed is something different - “exporting” the data, which isn’t likely and not really necessary. Should be backed up on the site.
Marilyn Johnson wrote:Oh, I just checked mine and it's showing the same thing. Not my work.
Same here. While clicking on the Author's posts does bring up mine, I've never read anything from the two listed under featured by author. This will be very misleading to readers who don't realize there's a problem.
Just checked a dozen different writers and they all have the same two listings under featured by author.
They are all like that. Even Sol’s. I suspect he’ll sort it out soon enough. I left him a Quickee.
Temple Wang wrote:Kdot wrote:Hi Sol. Had a device stolen that's logged in here, so I went ahead and changed my password.
Now here's where the fun begins:
Existing devices are not kicked off / logged off when I set my password. The holder of the device can simply change my password to anything he desires. He can also change my email address to his own, then click "lost password" and unreset mine. (I validated the former is possible using my phone).
Recommend: Attempt to change email address goes through an email confirmation cycle
Recommend: Change password expires any active tokens on the user accountGood Lord in heaven! What if they post some bad writing under your name?
Hmm, or a best seller. Take care. Vern
Damned optimists ... always looking for the silver lining in every disaster. ;-)
Hi Sol. Had a device stolen that's logged in here, so I went ahead and changed my password.
Now here's where the fun begins:
Existing devices are not kicked off / logged off when I set my password. The holder of the device can simply change my password to anything he desires. He can also change my email address to his own, then click "lost password" and unreset mine. (I validated the former is possible using my phone).
Recommend: Attempt to change email address goes through an email confirmation cycle
Recommend: Change password expires any active tokens on the user account
Good Lord in heaven! What if they post some bad writing under your name?
Temple Wang wrote:Hardly. Season’s just getting started here, Chuck. Thursday’s Puppy Fritter night at the market downstairs. Three yuan per skewer. Alas, I prefer bamboo rat to either, though ... slow roasted with yams.
Been done before, Temple.
Lelia ... caught André and Rodney watching her. "The tomato ones are good."
"I like crickets better, thanks," Rodney opined. "Crunchy on the outside, chewy middles."
André covered his face with one hand. "I'm sorry. You cannot domesticate foxes, no matter how young you start."
"Whaaat? You're the one who grossed out everyone in the teachers' lounge with the joke about bad rat." Rodney shook his head. "You cannot translate from Army to teacher, especially not at lunch."
Mr. Lee snorted a little. "He's right. Fresh roasted rat's not bad, but it's got to be fresh." Lelia made a sort of unhappy noise. "Rat is the protein of choice in a number of places, Miss Chan. As long as it's cooked through and fresh, you're reasonably safe."
"Patrick, my love, not everyone has a stomach trained to survive third, fourth, and last world cuisine. Enough," Dolores stated firmly. "No roasted rodents today. The topic is closed."
Patrick Lee's gustatory history is a minor running gag in Alma T.C. Boykin's Familiar series.
Gag? LOL. I bet their rats aren’t as tasty (or big) as my hometown critters. This one’s kinda small, but you can see they gotta lot more meat on ‘em than those puny things you Laowai call rats ...
“The Chinese bamboo rat has a very wide range, is common in some localities, is considered a plantation pest in parts of China, and is presumed to have a large total population. The main threat it faces is being hunted by man for food.”
Temple Wang wrote:big-horse-droppings-on-an-asphalt-road-picture-
At least Empress Wu has stopped eating dogs and cats.
Hardly. Season’s just getting started here, Chuck. Thursday’s Puppy Fritter night at the market downstairs. Three yuan per skewer. Alas, I prefer bamboo rat to either, though ... slow roasted with yams.
The language in my construction of unaffixed dialogue, which requires a unique, distinct voice in dialogue from each character, is that of a manic twenty-something black valley-girl NPR reporter - should I ever need that character.
All artificially intelligent means to access writing will break down at high levels of creative literacy.
So too, I suspect, does reading from an editor's point of view. Reviews as galley proofs are not really reviews. Complicated, grammar-licensed paragraphs in fiction have the intention to scramble and confuse the literal minded who can make great bureaucrats and IT personnel but not readers of literature designed to grow and activate brain cells.
