John Matthews wrote:
SolN wrote:

Interesting ideas. I'm going to continue following this thread and we'll launch a new contest by the beginning of next week.

Just found this thread and evidently I missed something. I joined in July, renewed once, and haven't seen a contest yet. Isn't this one of the things we pay premium for?
My only contest suggestion is: If Sol chooses an idea, the person who suggested it should not be allowed to enter. Because they have the jump on everyone else.

Well, since we've been waiting for several months for the contest which would be announced "next week" I don't think it matters a dither who suggests the idea if Sol can't come up with one on his own. The suggestion of an idea doesn't give the "suggestor" any advantage that I can see. Every contest idea comes from someone and no matter where the idea comes from there are plenty of varied and original responses which anyone who might have suggested such idea probably never dreamed of fitting the idea. There is a reason why you can't patent an idea. No matter what it is, it must be executed. Just an idea doesn't make a good story. The execution of the idea does. I could have an idea for a story and spend twenty years on it and it not be as good a story as someone else might present.

My idea is to have a contest period regardless of subject matter or who suggested it.  Just my opinion. Others may differ and I'm sure they will just as  I have disagreed with the suggestion within this post. Take care. Vern

477

(32 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:
vern wrote:
Dill Carver wrote:

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings when I called you stupid. I honestly thought that you already knew.

My only intent for commenting on this is to say that it could well join the list of classic insults listed at the beginning of this thread. PC or not, I literally laughed out loud and nary a cuss word was uttered. That is a literary feat extraordinaire imho. Take care. Vern

I can't claim it Vern. I think it has been commonly used before; or a variant of it. I was paraphrasing from memory.  The 'You're so stupid that you are incapable of realizing just how stupid you actually are.' genre of taunt/insult smile

The best part about these classic insults is that they should not offend unless the recipient accepts them as truth; wherein they merely become a statement of fact. Anyway, we need more imagination in the present such as these from the past present. Take care. Vern

478

(32 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings when I called you stupid. I honestly thought that you already knew.

My only intent for commenting on this is to say that it could well join the list of classic insults listed at the beginning of this thread. PC or not, I literally laughed out loud and nary a cuss word was uttered. That is a literary feat extraordinaire imho. Take care. Vern

479

(32 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Q.X.T.Rhazmeulen wrote:
Dill Carver wrote:
Dill Carver wrote:

Wow! What was that?  It whooshed over your head.

Janet Taylor-Perry was right about you, at least

Dill, go back and look at my original post, the one you inexplicably derided, and ask yourself of if I'm being serious or sarcastic. I think if you do that you'll see we're actually on the same team. In the meantime, peace to you. Let's not have any hard feelings over what I can only imagine is a misunderstanding.

Having looked back over all the above "insults" related to this post -- except the most recent ones to which I'm responding -- they appear to be in the vein of tongue-in-cheek or sarcasm followed by a smiley face for reinforcement of words which can be misconstrued in the best of circumstances. Just an observation. Take care. Vern

Edited to add "appear to be" for clarification.

There is nothing strange going on at tnbw; it is just a normal day. Take care. Vern

I would suggest using a modification of the Universal Translator of Star Trek fame. Be sure to leave a note at the beginning that you are using a Universal Translator Typewriter just in case some might not recognize the text as written. They can be tricky for the uninitiated. Take care. Vern

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

I'm a rule breaker--so get over it.

So is everyone else; that is within the rules. Take care. Vern

Definition of "rule" from Merriam:
**
Definition of rule
1 a :a prescribed guide for conduct or action

b :the laws or regulations prescribed by the founder of a religious order for observance by its members

c :an accepted procedure, custom, or habit

d (1) :a usually written order or direction made by a court regulating court practice or the action of parties  (2) :a legal precept or doctrine 

e :a regulation or bylaw governing procedure or controlling conduct
**
It might be noted that the first thing listed is "guide". No one forces you to use it under threat of bodily harm; you are free to follow it or ignore it. Perhaps Merriam can show it better than moi. Or you can discuss the merits with the dictionary; it's not set in concrete either. Take care. Vern

corra wrote:

Hi Vern! smile

Within the original post, Marilyn quotes the publisher as saying "... but successful writers of quality fiction have learned to resist the temptation" [to use dialogue tags to do more than differentiate between speakers.] I am guessing people are responding to that when mentioning "examples of 'great' writers who have broken the 'rules'" within this thread.

.
Yes, I agree that is true and may be part of the problem, but in a follow up post MJ says, "As Moonshine told me, there are always exceptions, and there are places where nothing else you use can hammer that one important thought any better than a tagline." and people still keep providing these examples from numerous authors of fame and fortune who have broken these so-called rules as if these exceptions had not already been allowed for within the so called rule in question.

I think a great deal of the problem is people don't bother to read what has been stated, they just pick out some perceived promotion of a god-like rule which doesn't exist. But to each their own; they may write anyway they wish and find arguments where none exists. I don't know how many times it must be stated there are no concrete rules before it sinks in and folks quit arguing against their own point that there are none. Thanks for your insight. Take care. Vern

Dill Carver wrote:
vern wrote:

It seems to need repeating that NO ONE is saying you can't break rules.

It is true, NO ONE here is saying that you can't break rules. Who are you repeating it to? Who is saying that you must adhere to rules?

Pardon me if I've misunderstood your post but I'm baffled by your comment?

The list of words provided which started this thread has created responses from some who tend to think that posting this list means they must never be used period when in fact it has been stated more than once within this same thread that there are exceptions. I quoted a line from MJ to that effect in replying to another author.

If you ignore statements which allow for exceptions to the so-called rule and argue against the so-called rule as though it were presented as being set in concrete, then you are by default saying  that the original post is saying the so-called rule is set in concrete and you can't break the rules. And NO ONE has said or implied you can't legitimately break those so-called rules. I have instead stated that no rule is set in concrete. We have free will, we can do as we choose. That being the case, we still continue to get examples of "great" writers who have broken the "rules" as though anyone has said the rules can't be broken. Perhaps a bit lengthy and wandering -- probably breaking a rule somewhere -- but hopefully it will clarify my statement and  position on the subject. If not, I suppose it is beyond my capacity and probably should just quit trying to explain -- it could be debated if that is set in concrete or not. Take care. Vern

It seems to need repeating that NO ONE is saying you can't break rules. Yes, rules are made up by some people for whatever purpose they intend. You have traffic rules; that doesn't mean you can't break them if you so desire; most people speed at least occasionally, some like me, almost always. Traffic rules just as "writing rules" are there for a purpose, but that doesn't mean you must follow them come hell or high water. You may break the rules and get away with it just I do almost every day in driving, but you may also get caught and then there may be consequences. That doesn't mean there will always be harsh consequences since you might get by with a warning even if stopped by the traffic cop. Yes, it is common sense that the rules are made by others, both the writing rules and the traffic rules, as well as all the other rules/laws of the land. No one is placing a gun to your head in this country to force you to follow any rules. You are free as has been stated often in this thread to follow your own rules. You may be stopped at some point by a publishing cop should you wish to go that route, just as you might be stopped by a traffic cop if you insist upon breaking the traffic rules. Or you may never get caught and more power to you should that be the case. Just as there are emergencies which warrant breaking the speed limit, there may be situations where one is compelled to violate so-called literary rules and be justified for doing so. That is common sense. Trying to deny the rules which create a somewhat more orderly road to get to where you are going merely because you may break them without consequence occasionally is not common sense. We all use common sense to make choices. That should apply to your writing life as well as the rest of your life. No one is denying that right to anyone with any so-called rules, whether you agree with them or not. Take care. Vern

graymartin wrote:

The folks at Moonshine Cove Publishing must be huge Hemingway fans, because he's the only writer I know who follows their strict "no dialogue tags except for 'he said/she said"" policy. I think the point is to avoid drawing attention to your prose at the expense of the plot and dialogue.

As for their elaborate list of prohibitions, it's pretentious and flies in the face of successful commercial fiction. Paula Hawkins (The Girl On The Train) has her characters both "barking" and "snarling" out dialogue, and I don't think most critics would accuse her of writing "hack fiction." Likewise, if your character has been screaming until his voice is hoarse, I don't see anything wrong with having him "croak" out a line of dialogue (sure he could "say" something "in a hoarse voice," but I'd argue that "croaking" is a simpler, more visceral description). Assuming he's human, I think the readers will assume he's not imitating a frog.

I believe MJ and Moonshine have said as much in one of the post by MJ above which states: " As Moonshine told me, there are always exceptions, and there are places where nothing else you use can hammer that one important thought any better than a tagline." And it should be obvious that any best selling author can break more rules than a novice and get by with it. As I also stated above, there are no rules set in concrete (except this one, lol) so exceptions by best selling authors do nothing to change the fact that most of us amateurs should at least pay token attention to the so-called rules favored by those who might be important for our future publishing efforts. No one has said or is expected to follow every single "rule" and that is the whole point of my post above. Take care. Vern

Yes, indeed, the so-called rules are primarily for those who wish to publish in the traditional manner. It goes without saying that if you self-publish, you can say or do or not do anything you wish. You can end every sentence with a question mark even if it doesn't ask a question; you can write the entire story in capital letters with no punctuation at all; you can leave out large chunks of important information; you can print the story right to left or start from the bottom of the page and go upward; you can do anything you wish and chalk it up to defying the rules just because you can. You have that right and no one is saying anything against that free spirit and inalienable right. And after you do all that and put JKR or any other best seller to shame, then you just may establish a new set of rules. Here's wishing you the best of luck.

No rules are set in concrete; no one is saying that. They are however a good guideline if you are indeed serious about publishing in the traditional manner. No, you don't have to abide by every single "rule" all the time -- no one is saying that -- but you just might have a greater chance of achieving the goal of traditional publication should you at least try to accommodate them once in a while. So, you are certainly within your right to knock the "rules" as irrelevant for the self publisher every time the subject comes up in a thread, but you also might want to think about just exactly why you are on a writing site to ostensibly improve your writing. After all, if you are free to follow whatever rules you wish because no one can tell you otherwise, why even bother with anything which might help one improve or be more likely to sell a story? I'm just curious because this scenario invariably plays out with any mention of any type of so-called "rule" within one of these threads. Now, I do quite often break so-called "rules" both on purpose and by mistake, but I don't simply break them because it doesn't matter one way or the other as far as publishing goes.

Having made my remarks, I suppose for the sake of "truth in advertising" so to speak, I should say that although I may end up self publishing at some point in time, I am still exploring the traditional route and expect to for some time to come. And I should also say that if I decide to go the self-publishing route tomorrow, I will still stand by the above statements. Take care. Vern

To this list I would add "paused" which was debated as a dialogue tag in another recent thread. At least most of these could actually be shown by the spoken word whereas "paused" and the like definitely can't be. I must say I used many of these and similar ones in the past, but I find only one I still have in my completed novel -- I'll probably keep it for now just for old times sake; no one wants to be perfect. Hopefully that puts me on the right track. Take care. Vern

490

(3 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Well, I'm back and though I did make a few bad bets, I would never have bet on that contest being here upon my return; even I, a gambler at heart, would not take on those odds. Still, I am willing to wager a new contest will come about before the end of the year -- I'm not saying which year now, mind you. Take care. Vern

491

(3 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Off to Sin City for a few days. Perhaps there will be a new contest by the time I'm rich/broke. Take care. Vern

Hijacks -- games up

Apple cider -- drink up!

When reviewing, I always tell the author to use what might help and ignore the rest -- I make that statement in ways that relate to the story such as bury it, kill it, feed it to the dogs, etc. Your job as author is to know the difference and if any suggestion/review makes you uncomfortable that could be a good hint. Take care. Vern

Scrambled eggs

njc wrote:

The glitch seems to have disappeared.

Hmm.

Did you clean your glasses? Take care. Vern

497

(23 replies, posted in HodgePodge)

Unfortunately, I can never find the right words for these occasions so I'll just say, Condolences, GP. She made a difference in the world with you. Take care. Vern

Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn or anything else by Mark Twain

I learn by example. Take care. Vern

First line from my novel, Root Hog or Die:

**Mom just sat there wringing her hands as if trying to squeeze mercy from God while Granny jabbered on betwixt sucking on a cigarette and taking frequent shots at her spit can.**

Of course it is subject to change depending upon which version I decide to query at any given time -- sometimes I start with a different chapter. Take care. Vern

500

(40 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0us2UbWFTCI

Take care. Vern