A reader’s opinion is just as valid as a writer’s.
Nuff said.
Personally, I believe a "reader's" opinion is more valuable than a "writer's" opinion. After all, you'll be selling most books to "readers" hopefully. It is the reader within the writer which offers the most sage advice. Take care. Vern
Whew, when I saw the subject, I was afraid we'd lost Ursula Andress who of course I pronounced Undress after seeing her coming out of the water in her bikini to the delight of James Bond. A beautiful body is a terrible thing to waste. Take care. Vern
My computer was killed by the power company so I've been without for a while, so what do you expect for my first post back, lol. Take care. Vern
Quite honestly, if Dill's going, I'm out too. He's the main reason I've stayed. Quality discussion and quality tomfoolery. Peace out, folks! And write well.
Here's to hoping he and you will stay. The two of you were instrumental in starting the original shred thread and it would be a shame to lose either or both of you now that the site has a bonafide Shred Group. Keeping fingers crossed. Take care. Vern
I agree with Corra that we would not get to know many people on site if not for the forums; we don't all read everybody else and the forums at times sparks an interest in a person enough to explore their writing. I know several people have told me they looked into my writing first because of the forums. Sure there will differences of opinion, that is life. Sometimes those differences might get a little heated -- I've been in a few heated discussions myself -- but I don't think anything said on either side of any of them would warrant closing the forums. Sol, has closed a few threads because of the heated rhetoric I suppose, but only a very few. Though I don't think there was any need to close them personally, that is his right as owner of the site. And he has shown great restraint and given warnings before taking drastic action.
There have been suggestions and offers before of certain threads where "anything goes" but the problem with that is that one never knows where a discussion is going to lead. Practically every thread of any duration on this site and probably anywhere else is going to go off subject at some point. It is natural. Somebody says something and that sparks an unexpected response from someone else and a tangent is born. Conversation is like that. Life is like that. The spontaneity is what makes the conversations/discussions interesting and informative. The forums would a dull dull dull place without such spontaneity. What is the most active enduring thread in the forums? It is the one which asks us to "Say the first word which comes to mind" and the reason it has gotten so many responses and people go to it time and time again is that you literally never know what one word will bring to mind in someone else. That is its strength. And that is the strength of all the threads which have staying power. They evolve. If they don't, they simply die on the vine after a few responses over a few days or less.
I guess it boils down to the fact that the forums with all their imperfections and differences of opinion, heated or not, are what keeps the site vibrant and especially so in the absence of contests to stir the creative juices. That's my say and it would be a real shame and loss if Dill or any other member were forced out for participation which though it may be heated at times for some, it is not close to a capital offense. Nor are the vast majority of the discussions which take place in the forums regardless of subject matter or where they lead. Take care. Vern
If we're going to be libertarian here, sure, anyone can form any group and hope to attract members to that group. Sol wants to create a new group - fine. Members can join it. But what the practical benefit that would be escapes me. I created the Thriller, Mystery, Suspense group, but I didn't intend for members who joined it to post only in that group. It was meant only for a place for like-minded readers/writers to go for discussions or whatever. As it turned out, the only thing I've seen coming out of these myriad groups I'm associated with is the occasional quiz. Perhaps I should be more active administering my group (and if anyone wants to take it over, let me know), but my focus has been posting and reviewing in the Premium group, where the action was and (so far) is. I'm not privy to all the other groups' activities, but I'm not aware of any that have postings only to that group. That would kind of defeat the purpose of this site, IMO. Sol, though, seems to want postings for like-minded writers confined to this new group and for like-minded reviewers to seek those postings out. I guess we could change the mindset of the site and have all the subgroups serve as a minor league, as it were, where genre postings would first go to the applicable group before advancing, if warranted, to the majors (Premium). I don't know, this edict from on high has a "who cares" quality to it unless Sol is pursuing a radical change in the TNBW model, and this is the first step.
Okay, I just ran a test and you can post to both Premium and Shred at the same time simply by clicking both groups when publishing. As stated earlier, I don't see any need for any groups other than Premium, but I see no need to protest the Shred Group any more than the others since they are all evidently going to be a part of the site unless Sol changes his mind about the group system. Unlikely. You can have your cake and eat it too if you desire to post in both groups. And no one need join nor participate in Shred or any other group to include Premium (for those only in Basic) if they do not wish. Take care. Vern
vern wrote:jp wrote:But I hope group members are not restricted to reviewing only each other. They can still review the works of people outside the Shred group, won't they?
They are no more restricted than any other group. Most works posted are listed in more than one group. Take care. Vern
** My understanding is that members who are confined to the "Shred Group" and *removed* from the Premium Group no longer have access to works posted on Premium, where the vast majority of works are indeed posted. Those sent to "Shred" can only read works by their connections and the groups they would have access to.
You may test it by leaving the Premium Group. I did, and got this message when I tried to click on several posts that appeared in the stream on the home page: Not Authorized Please join one of the following groups to read this posting: TheNextBigWriter Premium.
So currently, anyone limited to the 'Shred Group' has access to those ten members and their limited connections.
Jeff
I suppose Sol could confine some folks to the Shred Group for his own reasons, but that is not the natural or usual way to join. I'm a member of the Shred Group and can still access the Premium Group and any other open group the same as always. And I know that all the other members of the Shred Group were/are not confined to that group any more than a member of let's just say the Hodge Podge group is confined to that group. If you join any group, that does not confine you to that group. I'm not sure why the confinement theory exists, but it is certainly not the rule. Join or not, it's up to the members. Take care. Vern
vern wrote:
I think the separation is because some people, certainly not all, but enough, may not be prepared for the sometimes overly blunt reviews which some (again certainly not all or even a large percentage) provide. There are those who are more sensitive to criticism and there are those who are less tactful in reviewing. It only makes sense that the two have the option for a different environment. No one is required to function in one or the other; there is flexibility for using either or, or both. With the added option, what might be considered "rude' in one forum might be run of the mill in the other. Different skins for different folks or even the same folks at different levels of development. That's the way I see it and applaud the new option. Take care. VernI believe that it also provides a safe environment for reviewers. There are some members who are authoritative and forthright within the reviews they dispense (fair enough), but who for some reason will not accept the self-same degree of attention towards their own writing, however legitimate and technically substantiated that critique might be.
Strange but true. I have consciously experimented in the past. I have reciprocated reviews in-kind. Measured the review to legitimately suggest the same degree of alteration and change within their own writing that they suggest within the work they reviewed; and yet the author(s) have felt insulted. Apparently within some people there is no assumption or acceptance that you should ever take back what you dish out or reap what you sow.
Anyway, within the Shred it should be safe and sensible. Only those authors level-headed enough to happily receive the same style and degree of critique they dispense will utilise the group.My main optimism for the venture is that extended discussion upon word craft and writing analysis might break out within the Shred group forum.
Cheers!
I agree on all points. Take care. Vern
It may not be my place to say this. It may not even be appropriate. Heck, I don't know. But I think everyone is missing the point.
The shred group appears to me to have been created to contain a *single* person, and that's that. And, a damn fine writer. Jeff
It is your place just as much as anyone else to have a say. I probably know of which "single" person you refer and I agree they are a fine writer, but I don't believe the Shred Group was created for that person alone. The idea for "shredding" has been around for a very long time with its own thread. The group merely makes it easier for folks who wish to participate. Take care. Vern
But I hope group members are not restricted to reviewing only each other. They can still review the works of people outside the Shred group, won't they?
They are no more restricted than any other group. Most works posted are listed in more than one group. Take care. Vern
We each have a personality and a style. Our normal way of writing or reviewing will change for the better through feedback on a site like this. Having a Shred group will not protect new writers. Reviewers get frustrated with common mistakes that come from lack of experience. Each of us as an individual has a responsibility to work toward being fair, polite, and honest. We must not forget, we are here to help. Sincerely, John
You are correct, merely having a Shred Group will not automatically protect new writers, but it would certainly offer a different environment for some reviewers who prefer the type review that some new members may not be accustomed. And conversely some authors might appreciate just the type review some "shredders" provide but would not necessarily receive in the normal channels by oft times random selection.
In any case the Shred Group would be no different for those who don't join than any other group on site which you don't join. Just as you have joined many groups beyond Premium because you evidently feel they will offer something different, so too it would be with the Shred Group for those who join.
If there wasn't some minimal support for such a group as the Shred, it wouldn't have been established. The same could be said for all the groups you have joined. The real difference being that as far as I know, there is no one opposing all those other groups despite the fact that most are seldom used and offer nothing to benefit or entice most members.
In short, why would you "protest" an already established group you don't have to join or even acknowledge its existence? Put the shoe on the other foot for the groups you belong to. Just my opinion. Take care. Vern
I've read all the posts on this subject so far and, sorry, Sol, but I don't see the need for this shred group. If an author can't take the heat of unfavorable critiques, they can leave. If reviewers are mean-spirited and vitriolic, they can be removed from the site. And we already have a Fight Club group for members who like to duke it out. As far as I know, the Premium Group does not require "niceties" and "encouragement" from reviewers, though most reviewers will try to find something positive in their critiques. They chose to review it after all when they could have passed on it. Finally, I wouldn't want the Premium Group to get the reputation of the place where reviews aren't "honest."
I don't think anyone is saying the Premium Group's reviews aren't "honest". There are however different ways of stating an honest opinion. If someone says, "Your plot could use some work, but it has potential" or conversely says, "Your plot stinks and you should buy a grammar book and study it before trying to write" they both could be honest opinions, but one might be more readily acceptable for someone new to the game depending on the thickness of their skin so to speak. You currently have all kinds of different groups available and people may join or not join depending upon their preferences. The Shred Group is no different. Just as you say, if an author can't take the heat, they don't have to participate any more than they do in any other group. You in essence argue against your own argument.
Yes, there is the Fight Club and we've had the Shred forum for ages and guess what, they have not significantly impacted the Premium Group in any way as far as I can tell, and certainly not as much as say The Basic Group or other groups which are a part of the site. Personally I don't see any need for any group other than the Premium Group, but as long as we're going to have them (and Sol says we are) then one more which will probably be more useful than most of the others and no one has to join any more than any of the others, then it appears to be a good idea to move the reviewing process to a more thought provoking level for a certain segment of the site. Don't know if I will or not, but no one has to use it just as with any other group. Take care. Vern
It'll be interesting to see how the shred group develops. But I'm curious about a few things.
1) If the Shred group members insist they are doing nothing but offering the truth about grammar, spelling, etc., why are they separating? Isn't that what we signed up for?
2) If new members are to be offered nothing but 'kind,' non-confrontational reviews, aren't they being robbed of the critiques they signed up for?
and 3) Aren't those pandering, say-nothing-of-substance reviews what people spent a month complaining about last year, and still regularly disparage as ineffective? Who wants 'em?
Give me a shot of truth serum from the Sheriff or Keanu anytime. I want to know what needs fixing. JP
I think the separation is because some people, certainly not all, but enough, may not be prepared for the sometimes overly blunt reviews which some (again certainly not all or even a large percentage) provide. There are those who are more sensitive to criticism and there are those who are less tactful in reviewing. It only makes sense that the two have the option for a different environment. No one is required to function in one or the other; there is flexibility for using either or, or both. With the added option, what might be considered "rude' in one forum might be run of the mill in the other. Different skins for different folks or even the same folks at different levels of development. That's the way I see it and applaud the new option. Take care. Vern
Please tell me you don't want it in pink!
Seriously, there is a market in pink firearms and accessories. I'm guessing the only reason there's no market for lace is that it would get caught when the weapon is drawn.
For the life of me, I don't understand the stupid gender association with a color. Pink, blue, boy, girl, do small kids know the difference or care? I wore pink shirts as a teenager when they were somewhat in vogue and still wear them on occasion. Got and get more compliments than negative reactions. A color is pretty or not regardless of what gender it's on. Humans are stupid animals, lol. Take care. Vern
It looks like the Democrats like government power more than they hate Trump: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/liber … le/2646052 Of course, given the rumors of FBI abuses soon to be revealed, and the FBI's failure to keep records of anti-Trump communication in their ranks, this might be expected.
Look for disclosures as this year's campaigns ramp up.
I would say it is not only the Dems who "hate" Trump, a lot of Pubs just won't admit it on record now that he is president. That goes to show they like power as much or more than the Dems. Right now the Pubs have almost absolute power and they have demonstrated the effects of that. There should be some type provision that any law must have bipartisan support so they would be forced to compromise when needed. Furthermore, once this stupid shutdown is solved, they should unanimously pass a law that from this point on every bill must pass on it's own merit and not tied to something else just to get the votes to pass something that won't pass on it's own merit. And then they should all freaking resign. Take care. Vern
I'll agree with you on getting rid of the business tax. But try and convince Chuck Schumer or Nancy Pelosi to go along with it.
They're about as likely to go along with it as Ryan and McConnell are to let it come to light. Not going to happen unless by some miracle they impose term limits to take the preponderance of donor money out of the equation. Until then, the Republicans are only whistling at dogs about being concerned about over-taxation of business. Take care. Vern
Apple just paid 38 Billion dollars in taxes in anticipation of bringing 350 Billion back from overseas, where it was parked to protect it from a double-taxation regime inflicted by no other industrial country.
The first lie which comes from Trump's version of the announcement is that it's not 350 billion, rather around 250 billion. Yeah, that's a lot of money, but there was nothing in Apple's announcement that it would spend that money in the U.S. It doesn't need that money for any foreseeable U.S. investments.
The second lie in Trump's version is that Apple did not need the tax change to park that money in the U.S. They would not have to pay the tax until the money was spent which is probably no time soon since as stated they have enough U.S. generated profit to cover their needs. No spending, no taxes.
I've stated this in other forums, but I'll say it again here that if the Republicans or Democrats want to reduce the taxes on business, it is a simple solution. Do away with the business tax totally instead of playing their sham game. Change the code so that any profit must be passed on to individuals whether owners, stockholders, or employees. A certain percentage could be set aside for future funding of research or capital needs, but even that must be used within a reasonable time say ten years. Any additional needs beyond that could be funded by standard means of borrowing or bringing in more investors.
But politicians of either stripe won't make such a simple change to the tax code because the wealthy donors would then have to pay fair taxes on what they can now avoid and couldn't cry all the way to the bank about unfair business taxes. And the beat goes on. Take care. Vern
Oh, for sure, we don't need any regulations on business or anything else. Hell, who needs to inspect food or roads and bridges; who needs speed limits or airline rules for maintenance or flight patterns; who needs rules on monopolies who run others out of business so they can jack up prices; who needs rules on loan sharks or banking institutions which prey upon the unwitting or desperate; who needs taxes for schools when their kids don't attend; who needs rules against fraud or bullying or stealing intellectual property; who needs anything the government provides when one can do everything for themselves you know like build a business with no help from anyone like employees, public roads to transport goods, machines to produce products, office supplies, and on and on.
Survival of the fittest is the only rule we need kind of like the dinosaurs before the climate change they overlooked. Dog eat dog. Rules, who needs them? Certainly not Republicans who gerrymander districts to their advantage; no rules against that. Republicans surely don't need the stupid rules of the electoral college, they can win through their own brilliance and charisma despite the numbers. Throw all the rules out; hell, they're all crooked Hillary's doing. No rules, no taxes, no safety nets; just pure unadulterated macho man. Good idea. Take care. Vern
Before all is said and done, the shut down will be crooked Hillary's fault. And roughly a third of the population will believe the pathological liar they deem to be Lord Trump. Take care. Vern
vern wrote:Seamus wrote:And coming soon to a forum near you [drum roll]
The The Ego Stroke Group Group
This group is for people who want to give and receive kind words aimed at encouragement even if there’s no hope. Only post here if you are ready for banal platitudes and gold stars for participating. (Also great for credit hoarders. 50 words of empty, benign rhetoric = piles o’ points!)LOL. This from one who has posted nothing and has reviewed zilch. It appears the only goal for this character is to try to stir a hornet's nest in the forums. It is quite laughable really. BTW, Ms, this is my thread so it won't be deleted like the one where you attacked forum authors for no reason unless deleted by Sol. Should you insist upon spewing more nonsense, it will remain for the amusement of all until that day comes if ever. As stated previously, I will be laughing at you, not with you. Take care. Vern
*Bows* God Vern has spoken. I yield your post back to you. I cry easily when other people laugh at me. And sorry for calling you a curmudgeon. Anybody can see that’s not true. How could I have been so insensitive. *sticks tail between legs and runs away from Vern*
LOL! Take care. Vern
And coming soon to a forum near you [drum roll]
The The Ego Stroke Group Group
This group is for people who want to give and receive kind words aimed at encouragement even if there’s no hope. Only post here if you are ready for banal platitudes and gold stars for participating. (Also great for credit hoarders. 50 words of empty, benign rhetoric = piles o’ points!)
LOL. This from one who has posted nothing and has reviewed zilch. It appears the only goal for this character is to try to stir a hornet's nest in the forums. It is quite laughable really. BTW, Ms, this is my thread so it won't be deleted like the one where you attacked forum authors for no reason unless deleted by Sol. Should you insist upon spewing more nonsense, it will remain for the amusement of all until that day comes if ever. As stated previously, I will be laughing at you, not with you. Take care. Vern
This morning, feeling frobly-mobly, I was overwhelmed with dysania, but I knew I must get moving. After my shower, I was overcome with shivviness, thanks to a gift to myself. Though I want to write more on my new novel, I most likely will perendinate because I’m caught up with news of our kakistocracy and can’t unglue my eyes from the TV this morning. So I presume I will be grufeling today since we have snow on the ground and I am reluctant to go outside. I feel philogrobilized, but that can’t be, so I will watch the news and sympathize with the grumbletonians as they jeer the snollygosters and ultracrepidarians. I hope my phone doesn’t ring because I am not into twattling today.
(OMG! My spell-check is working overtime!)
What, you didn't include "callipygian" in this ensemble? Okay, my editing suggestion is to just throw it out at the end of the para with "... into twattling today while admiring my callipygian self in the mirror." Or such, lol. Take care. Vern
We should be well acquainted with "kakistocracy" since we're living with it at present. I agree with Jack, we could use a bit more "callipygian" in our life, lol. Good list. Take care. Vern
If I must explain, I'm just testing to see if he really can play by ear. Take care. Vern
Most improbable romance. No dream-worlds. Max 3300 word.
For more frequent, lighter contests: caption contests. Prize of 50 review points.
Don't really care what the subject is, but any number of review points would be pretty worthless to many who will never use what they already have. Take care. Vern
Not sure what to say. I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Ahh, he returns from The Great Pyramid. Observations and/or rumors do come alive in one's absence. What to say? Back in August of last year, you announced a contest for the next week. So you might see where the slow demise is coming from. The low level of current participation is a prescription for a slow death of stagnation with signs of early rigor mortis. Yes, it is only my opinion -- but is it really? It might also be a wake up call. Take care. Vern
