376

(34 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

jack the knife wrote:
vern wrote:
Lynne Clark wrote:

*wanders onto Google to look up antecedents...*

Yes, I understand the rules are there for a reason, that being to make things clear. My point is that in this instance, it is obviously clear without using google to look up obscure rules the preponderance of readers and writers have no idea exist. That is going beyond what I dare say any publisher/editor would be concerned within the context of a story. But if someone is looking for that technical detail in a review then they are well beyond anything I could offer or would seek on this site.

I do wish this had come up before the clarification that cheetahs don't roar because that is precisely what I was going for. When we overlook a factual error, contradictions, plot holes, transitions, etc. in our search for technical fault, that is a case of sticking to rules to the detriment of creative writing imho. Take care. Vern

The structure of that sentence is what I thought you were going for when you started the discussion, since it was flawed. (The sentence structure, not the discussion. That's one example of what I mean. smile ) I agree that an isolated sentence like the one you proposed is not likely to raise the concern of editors - though they would likely correct it - or cause readers to shake their heads in confusion. But if I had the time on this Sunday of March Madness and Tiger in the hunt at Bay Hill, I would give you more examples to show why sticking to proper construction is important for clarity.

I also am wandering in from watchin Tiger in the hunt -- but not so much any more after that last bogey --  and I agree the sentence structure would be a problem if the meaning were not clear, but when it is absolutely clear without defying logic, then the precise sentence structure becomes a non-issue, countless examples where it is not clear notwithstanding, imho. Take care. Vern

377

(34 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Lynne Clark wrote:
jack the knife wrote:
vern wrote:

As you state, "its" obviously refers to the cheetah, so, I suppose if anyone would attribute "its" to a roar having its picture taken, then we can throw all logic and the rules governing such out the window. I did consider the "a vs the" situation, but ultimately decided it had no consequence in the grand scheme of things. Nothing wrong per se with rearranging other than "startling me" is a bit less dramatic imo. Take care. Vern

The rules of sentence structure regarding antecedents are there for a reason: to avoid ambiguity in every instance, not just berry-picking examples. In the given sentence, it's fairly obvious the cheetah is the antecedent, but structurally, it isn't. Excusing this because the meaning should be clear here ignores countless other instances where the meaning is not clear and gives a pass to sloppy sentence construction. Next subject: dangling participles. smile

*wanders onto Google to look up antecedents...*

Yes, I understand the rules are there for a reason, that being to make things clear. My point is that in this instance, it is obviously clear without using google to look up obscure rules the preponderance of readers and writers have no idea exist. That is going beyond what I dare say any publisher/editor would be concerned within the context of a story. But if someone is looking for that technical detail in a review then they are well beyond anything I could offer or would seek on this site.

I do wish this had come up before the clarification that cheetahs don't roar because that is precisely what I was going for. When we overlook a factual error, contradictions, plot holes, transitions, etc. in our search for technical fault, that is a case of sticking to rules to the detriment of creative writing imho. Take care. Vern

378

(34 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

jack the knife wrote:

Ignoring whether a cheetah does or does not roar, the given sentence is problematic in its construction. "Its" refers to the cheetah, obviously, but the subject of the opening clause is "roar," so "its" could be referring to the antecedent "roar," which of course is nonsensical. Replacing "a cheetah" with "the cheetah" helps a little but doesn't resolve the issue. The solution I'd propose in my in-line: The cheetah roared, startling me as I snapped its picture. This makes "cheetah" the unambiguous antecedent of "its."

As you state, "its" obviously refers to the cheetah, so, I suppose if anyone would attribute "its" to a roar having its picture taken, then we can throw all logic and the rules governing such out the window. I did consider the "a vs the" situation, but ultimately decided it had no consequence in the grand scheme of things. Nothing wrong per se with rearranging other than "startling me" is a bit less dramatic imo. Take care. Vern

379

(34 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Kdot wrote:

Cheetahs make a weird snarl sound. If I read "roar of a cheetah", it's exactly this sound I would picture. Same with an elephant... "roar of an elephant" would give me images of an elephant making a loud elephant noise (eg not a lion noise). Third example: Katy Perry saying "hear me roar"... well humans aren't good at that activity but I can still visualize it.

I suppose I'm asking if the quote in OP was presented in a symbolic nature or factual?

The sentence was/is presented as an example where the author may not in fact know he/she has made an error. And many times, we as reviewers simply read over and accept it without comment because we are also unsure.

To quote:
***Cheetahs purr whereas big cats such as leopards,jaguars,lions, and tigers do not have the purring capability. Only these true large cats listed above can roar. Cheetahs do not roar because they do not have the capability of "true" large cats.***

Thanks for the input. Take care. Vern

380

(34 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Lynne Clark wrote:

Unless, of course, it was because cheetahs don't usually roar that the sound startled the photographer? That would be valid, I think.

Maybe. Nope, they're not just lazy,  they can't roar, so "don't usually" wouldn't be valid in this case. Unless of course the photographer was on a mad scientist's island where all sorts of strange things might happen. Now, we're getting somewhere. The paperback should be out soon. Take care. Vern

381

(34 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

kraptonite wrote:

Indeed.

Or (for the sake of a capital C), if the Cheetah were a powerboat and the photographer at the marina?  smile

(Joking!)

LOL, I should've used that as backup. Take care. Vern

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(34 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Norm d'Plume wrote:

Do cheetahs roar?

Exactly. No they don't. Damn, that was too easy, lol. But perhaps the author will think they do and we can discuss that. Take care. Vern

"The roar of a cheetah startled me when I snapped its picture."

Let's say you came across the above sentence in a story you were reviewing. What comment, if any, would you leave for the author? Take care. Vern

kraptonite wrote:

Open question to the author community, (and out of genuine interest):

Which 'great storyteller' do you emulate and what is it about that particular 'storyteller' that made you imitate them?

I tend to admire and lean toward Mark Twain in my writing. That probably has more to do with my own upbringing and also having had him read to the class during our "rest period" in elementary school. Most kids napped; I listened to the exciting stories. I submitted a sample of my writing to one those online sites which tell you whose writing you resemble and it said Mark Twain. I submitted another sample and it said Samuel Clemmons. It is what it is, lol. Take care. Vern

385

(20 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

C J Driftwood wrote:

Doesn't it depend on when it is being told to the reader? The story could have occured in the past, but the telling is in the present. So the tense would be present tense when the aside comments pulling the reader into the story are made, and in past when the story is being told.

Pretty much the opinion when the narrator is speaking in a more or less conversational tone, using both past and present tense as most of us do when telling  story in person. Take care. Vern

386

(20 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

amarie wrote:

It is not true that the story has already occurred if it's being told to the reader.....

Just think: any action = past tense. Commentary, random tidbits, truth, audible or internal thoughts along the journey = are cool as present.

I suppose it's all in the eye of the author or reader as the case may be. However, if a story has already occurred, it is by definition in the past regardless of the amount of time difference. Still, you may as an author relay it as unfolding in the present tense if it fits your narration style.

By the same token, no rules are set in concrete. "So, I pick up my beer and take a drink" is action in present tense, not the past. "I flip him the bird" would also be action in the present tense as told by the author in a conversational voice. There really is no right or wrong for these particular situations; one can have their cake and eat it too. Take care. Vern

Edited to extend quote.

There are exceptions to every "rule" except of course the one I just stated. You can find success stories which break basically every so-called rule of writing. That doesn't mean that "you/we" can break them with impunity. It also doesn't mean that we will be put to the guillotine should we break any "cardinal rules" placed upon the shoulders of would be authors. If it works, it works. But the odds are that you and I as unknown authors will not pass the preconceptions of agents/editors/publishers, etc. which may take a gander at our stories. Sure we can self-publish if that is the route we wish to take and there are success stories in that category also -- just a whole lot more that don't quite pay the rent. So, we must ask ourselves, "Do you want to take the shot or not; well, do you, ...? Go for it. Take care. Vern

388

(15 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

I agree with all that K says with one possible exception in the eye of this totally non-expert. I take it to mean that when you refer to a "guard" informally that you are referring specifically to a member of this elite guard and it is merely a substitute for their complete title much the same way we refer to "Mom" when referring to our specific mother rather than just any mother out there in the crowd of mothers. If that is not the case, then I withdraw my input. But either way, thee is a reason I don't as a rule comment on grammar/punctuation in reviews I may give. Take care. Vern

389

(15 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Strictly from a logical perspective, nothing to do with any rules which may apply, I would say you are even in the "informal" usage using it as a substitute for a specific title/name and thus I would use "Guard." To not do so would render the "guards" simply any guard which doesn't seem your intention. Just an opinion from one with no expertise whatsoever other than a bit of logic and layman's perspective. Take care. Vern

This is kind of in the same vein as using improper speaker tags such as "he laughed, he blushed, he smiled, she giggled, etc." You can't actually laugh or blush, etc. words but that doesn't stop people from using them or editors/agents/publishers, etc. from frowning upon such usage. To be sure eyes can burn from various things, but they don't burn with frustration. But if an author is going to argue for such use, then it is probably a waste of time to try to dissuade them with the technical impossibility of it. Most likely a future publisher will be the only one with that influence. My opinion for what it's worth. Take care. Vern

There is no debate about the word "boats"; it is plural period.
There is no debate about the word "testicles"; it is plural period though if referred to as a pair (which they generally are) then that would be a single pair.
There is no debate about combined words "summer and winter"'; they are two different seasons and together are plural period.

Are you ready for a political debate yet? Take care. Vern

njc wrote:

The US and UK differ here.  In the US, a group is.  In the UK, a group are.

Maybe that's why we had a revolution. That's not politics, just a speculative written narrative, lol. Take care. Vern

Perhaps a good way to look at it is that if you put "A couple" as opposed to "The couple" the correct "is" would certainly sound better to the ear than "are" would. The "a" shows correctly that it is one couple which is singular; make it "two couples" then you are plural. Keep in mind that I am probably one of the least qualified on this site to answer questions concerning grammar. If it helps, use it, if not, the trash can is close by. Take care. Vern

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(20 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

In thinking about this "correct" use of grammar in writing our stories, I thought about how we use "I vs Me" when speaking conversationally in reality or often times in writing. We all pretty much would say "Johnny and I went to school" which would be correct. But we also more often than not will say "Me and Johnny took a trip" which though incorrect grammatically is more the norm than not because it just sounds better to the ear than "I and Johnny." That would also be the case with the scenario presented by Tirz.

So, let's expand this line of thinking into a hypothetical scene about Tirz's character in Plum:

***Me and Binny got into an argument because he washed my drawers with his crotch rot underwear. So, I slapped him silly when I found out and he got mad and jumped in his car. I'm flipping him the bird while he's driving away staring at me scratching my hooch because just thinking about what he done makes me itch like crazy. When he drove into a fire hydrant and it burst, filling his car with water, I'm laughing my ass off which I shouldn't have done, but it at least made me forget about my itching vagina. ***

Now, mind you, these aren't Tirz's words from her novel, but they are pretty much in character with the voice of Plum though Tirz says it a whole lot better. You might have legitimate grammatical questions from the first "Me and Binny" to the changing tenses throughout, but they all fit with the voice and character even if not quoted directly because the narrator is speaking in a conversational tone to the reader and she is a bit quirky to say the least. That's the way I see this debate about "correct" grammar. Take care. Vern

395

(20 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Norm d'Plume wrote:
vern wrote:

Hi, Tirz, you are telling the story in first person, but the story has already occurred or you wouldn't be able to tell it; therefore, you "flipped" Binny the bird as you are not in the process of flipping him the bird while you are telling the reader that you did so in the past.

Don Chambers writes a lot of his stories in first person, present tense. So I believe he would write it: I flip Binny the bird. You can tell a story as it is happening, which is present tense. Send him a message if you want him to comment on this. He's not very active on the site at the moment.

Yes, you can tell a story as it is happening, but that is not the way Plum is written for the most part; the story has already happened and is being relayed to the reader. Take care. Vern

396

(20 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Hi, Tirz, you are telling the story in first person, but the story has already occurred or you wouldn't be able to tell it; therefore, you "flipped" Binny the bird as you are not in the process of flipping him the bird while you are telling the reader that you did so in the past. Beyond that, if it sounds strange to you, then it is probably "wrong" even if many might think it is technically "correct." I've read a great deal of Plum, but don't as a rule comment on grammar things in a review because I am not the best qualified person to do so and there is also a "voice" the narrator uses which is unique and it would be totally natural for said voice to screw things up now and again.

I would suggest that you finish the book and whatever edits you wish to make before losing any sleep over a grammar situation which appears to be a toss up between reviewers. You and/or a future editor can make that ultimate decision regarding tense and other technical things which might create a difference of opinion among current reviewers. Lord knows Plum has enough to deal with without getting embroiled in a grammar debate, lol. It might be helpful to note that I ran into a similar situation with Root Hog or Die regarding dialect; some love it, others call it a no-no. I finally decided I would keep it with some slight toning down and hopefully let some future publisher/editor decide if it should stay or go. I put that decision in the summary at the beginning but still told readers comments either way were appreciated. Take care. Vern

397

(11 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Norm d'Plume wrote:

You can add comments to existing comments. You can't start a review in xline, placing new comments.

I suppose I'm a bit confused by this. Why would you want to "start a review" in xline as opposed to inline. The xline is so that you can see all the comments at once and if you are just starting a review there obviously wouldn't be any more comments there to see. Vern scratches his head. Take care. Vern

398

(11 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Norm d'Plume wrote:

You can't leave inline comments in xline view, at least not during the initial review. Also, as Bill said, the 2x2 summary field at the bottom requires html tags.

Of course you can leave comments in the x-line review, I do it all the time; matter of fact just finished one. Just click on the highlighted area and you get another comment box. Take care. Vern

Edited for PS: Others can also leave comments within the review which is a benefit very few use or possibly even know about.

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(11 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Why don't you simply open the review in "x-line" to start with; that way you don't have to switch back and shouldn't have a problem. Take care. Vern

400

(3 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Hello, Deth, not sure where you posted the chapter, but it's not on the home page with new listings and your portfolio shows nothing. BTW, when you do get posted, you might provide a link with your message hear. Other than that, welcome to the site. Take care. Vern