Deckland Oz wrote:
vern wrote:
Deckland Oz wrote:

Having actually worked in both marketing and editorial at one of the big NY publishers, I can say with  certainty that writing a book which fits clearly into a specific genre is absolutely essential to getting it published, because genre is one of the primary tools publishers use to market books. If you don't know your genre, if it is unclear to everyone, unless you plan to self-publish, you have a serious problem.

I have no doubt that a marketer might put a book in a specific genre for promotion, but if what you state is the case, then give me an example or two of a book which has no elements of any genre other than the one it supposedly fits. And also show me any submission requirements which would state that a book must fit one and only one genre and that genre must be picked by the author in advance. And why would there be such a thing as crossover if a book must fit entirely in one specific genre? Call me skeptical.  Thanks. Take care. Vern

Obviously books may have elements of various genres; that's not the point. What is the point is that if you actually want to attract an agent or an editor, you're going to have a much easier time of it if one element of your book is prominent enough to make the work clearly definable as a given genre. As for submission requirements insisting your book be a given genre, it's very likely that some do. Of course, if you're talking about big, reputable publishers, virtually none take direct submissions anymore; you have to find an agent. As for agents, I think very few will request pages if you don't state clearly what your genre is and have a query that backs that claim up. Agents are busy; they have no time to waste figuring out what genre your book is so they can pitch it to an editor. Bear in mind, btw, that most, if not all agents, specialize in specific genres; if I'm an agent who works only in espionage thrillers and horror, and you send me a query that says, "has elements of literary fiction and romance," I'm not reading any further. If this isn't clear, I'm guessing you haven't spent an awful lot of time querying your novel, because it's a pretty basic and widely known fact.

To start with, I've checked dozens of agents and every single one lists multiple (many) genres they accept. And no one said to put in a query that you have elements of different genres. As I stated earlier, you pick whatever genre best fits in your own mind and don't worry about it. I doubt very seriously any agent will decide against a good query and sample (or complete draft as many accept now) because they might not see the genre classification as you do. And btw, you might read clearly the first time before making assumptions and deciding not to read further. Take care. Vern

Deckland Oz wrote:
vern wrote:

The way I look at it, we often get sidetracked by things which ultimately are pretty much irrelevant in getting a book published. This is one of those things which will take care of itself with the crafting of a good story. Just my three cents (inflation). Take care. Vern

Having actually worked in both marketing and editorial at one of the big NY publishers, I can say with  certainty that writing a book which fits clearly into a specific genre is absolutely essential to getting it published, because genre is one of the primary tools publishers use to market books. If you don't know your genre, if it is unclear to everyone, unless you plan to self-publish, you have a serious problem.

I have no doubt that a marketer might put a book in a specific genre for promotion, but if what you state is the case, then give me an example or two of a book which has no elements of any genre other than the one it supposedly fits. And also show me any submission requirements which would state that a book must fit one and only one genre and that genre must be picked by the author in advance. And why would there be such a thing as crossover if a book must fit entirely in one specific genre? Call me skeptical.  Thanks. Take care. Vern

Most stories, if not all, have elements of more than one specific genre. For instance, a historical novel might also have a love affair and a murder mystery. You pick the element which dominates in your mind and/or intention and go with it. There is a good chance that no matter what you pick, an agent/publisher will choose a different genre. Of course, if you self-publish, it really doesn't matter; you're not marketing the genre, you're marketing the book, hopefully anyway.

The way I look at it, we often get sidetracked by things which ultimately are pretty much irrelevant in getting a book published. This is one of those things which will take care of itself with the crafting of a good story. Just my three cents (inflation). Take care. Vern

329

(62 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

I use quite a bit of dialect in my novel Root Hog or Die and have found that reviewers are about evenly split between loving it and not so much. I did lighten it a smidgen over time, but nothing drastic. I finally decided to leave it up to any future publisher/agent as to whether it stays in the current form or is reduced or eliminated. I find it much easier to do away with dialect than to create it in the first place. For any who might be considering using dialect in their writing, it is basically a crap shoot. Take care. Vern

The writing is not hard; it's the writing to please others which is difficult. Take care. Vern

331

(11 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Deckland Oz wrote:
vern wrote:

I've always thought literary fiction to be more character driven than plot driven -- heard that somewhere along the line. So, I suppose you get more in depth character analysis and relationships versus twisting plots and sub-plots, intricate mysteries, etc.. By that standard, I guess my somewhat fictionalized memoir is really literary fiction. Egads, who knew. Take care. Vern

Character-driven vs. plot-driven is only a feature of literary fiction. The term itself was invented by publishers and agents for the purely practical reason of organizing novels into kind, as I said above: If it's fiction and it ain't any genre, it's "literary fiction." Simple as that.

Well, that's all well and good and correct I suppose, but if someone asks what it "is" it seems better to describe some of its features than to simply say it is not something else. Its rather difficult to prove a negative so I guess that's why no one (other than the ones who decide to publish it) really knows what literary fiction is -- it is not. Take care. Vern

332

(11 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

I've always thought literary fiction to be more character driven than plot driven -- heard that somewhere along the line. So, I suppose you get more in depth character analysis and relationships versus twisting plots and sub-plots, intricate mysteries, etc.. By that standard, I guess my somewhat fictionalized memoir is really literary fiction. Egads, who knew. Take care. Vern

333

(62 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

I'm pretty sure that in this statement,
" I set it up in the narrative and then let the profanity and the weirdness distinguish his dialogue. Without using ums and uhs or stuttering or whatever."
John said nothing about not tarnishing dialogue with swearing -- not his point. Thus it is very difficult to use John's use of swearing to prove one's point based upon a point he never made. Or are we now allowed to discuss politics in the forums again? Oh well, it was worth a shot. Take care. Vern

334

(62 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Christine Dreier wrote:

I just looked at published books, national and international bestseller, in how they use dialogue tags. The books I examined are quite diverse: Natchez Burning by Greg Iles, The Time in Between by Maria Duenas, All the Light We Cannot See by Anthony Doerr. All three authors use dialogue tags sparingly, but do use words like whisper, ask and a few other descriptive words for dialogue here and there. I'll strive to provide a context to eliminate the need as much as possible, then just not worry about it.

I believe the key word is "sparingly" and if well established authors can get away with it only "sparingly" then those still looking to join the established club probably should use such tags a bit more sparingly. It goes without saying, hopefully, that if you intend to self-publish, then you can do anything you wish without concern for any norms within the traditional publishing industry. Regardless, there is nothing to prevent the author from writing any which way they wish, publishers be damned -- you pays your money and takes your chances. No one can force the author to abide by any rules if they choose not to and who knows, you might win the lottery. Unfortunately, few will. Still your choice. Take care. Vern

335

(62 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

My mantra for speaker tags (feel free to borrow it): "Let the words (dialogue) and actions show the tone and/or state of mind of the speaker." Yes, there may be a few exceptions as with every rule, but there should not be many imnho. Take care. Vern

336

(62 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Like all other "rules" it is just a guideline. Sure folks use "uhs" and "ums" and such in talking just the way they use "you know" which is distracting and annoying in person and would become more so in written dialogue. An occasional utterance is no big deal, but to make it standard practice is probably going to make it stand out to the point of distraction for the reader. Surely there are better ways to differentiate characters' speech patterns. Take care. Vern

Dirk B. wrote:

Time to see if there's a consensus on this one:

Is the second comma below (after the word epithet) required? I think it doesn't belong because the name of the epithet, Bastardus Minusculus, is mandatory for understanding which epithet is being referred to. Or am I applying the wrong comma rule? (This is about a future society where the Roman Empire has been resurrected, hence the name Caligula.)

Although it took years for Caligula to be recognized for his brilliance, among the many side effects is that the epithet, Bastardus Minusculus, which had tormented Caligula throughout his youth, became an honorific awarded for extraordinary accomplishments in any field, similar to the coveted Noble Prize of the late second and early third millennia.

Thanks
Dirk

You could rearrange it to eliminate any doubt: "Caligula's peers called him Bastardus Minusculus in his youth. However, once his brilliance was recognized, the epithet became associated with a great honor similar to the Nobel Prize during the late second and third millennia." or such.
Take care. Vern

Congrats to all who won, placed, and showed; but also to all who entered and enjoyed the experience. Take care. Vern

339

(9 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

A good book and a good story are whatever the audience deems it to be. Period. Granted, in most cases, your audience is not going to be ecstatic about a book which is sloppily written, full of errors, undeveloped characters, ridiculous dialogue, torturous descriptions, no plot, no tension, slow as molasses, etc., but a few minor deviations from the "publishers norm" are most likely not going to be a stake in the heart. The only "concrete rule" is the one which states "There are no concrete rules." That's the way I see it. Take care. Vern

340

(23 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Now I don't know what it was I been listenin' to, but what it ain't is decent talkin'. I mean all this parsing and stylebooking and tree nodes and I don't know whatall just sounds indecent and ain't much help to us non-alien  comma criminals. If it sounds like I need to stop and take a leak or something while reading the thing, I'll throw in a comma and if it don't sound that way, well, I just let somebody higher up that grammar tree worry about it. I ain't losing no sleep over it either way. Where the hell is good non-political Trump tweet when you need it? Ya'll carry on now cause this is way over my noggin. Take care. Vern

Dirk B. wrote:

Sol, are we allowed to edit our posted entries before the contest ends?

Thanks
Dirk

You always have been allowed to edit up to the contest deadline. I doubt that has changed. It would be kind of useless to have reviews if you couldn't. Take care. Vern

SolN wrote:

Post them all together. Just like you would post a normal book.

I'm pretty sure I understand what you mean, but this sounds contradictory. A book is normally posted one chapter at a time (including past contests), not "all together" as that would imply the three chapters posted as a single unit as opposed to individually.

I think by "all together" you are speaking of posting the three chapters consecutively within a short time frame as opposed to waiting a day or so between chapters. Of course, with a normal book posting, you could post the individual chapters at random times also and they would still meet the requirements for the contest as long they were all posted within the start and finish deadlines. Are these assumptions correct? Take care. Vern

TirzahLaughs wrote:

And 'She is a donkey' would be better said "she brayed at her own jokes, but sat stubbornly silent when anyone else said something humorous,' attributing the characteristics of a donkey to an individual without blatantly announcing what you're doing. It's more work, but more subtle.

I was on my break and writing super quickly.  I am sure there are much better metaphors in the world than the one I listed but it is, technically, a metaphor.

Personally, "She is a donkey" without any context says a lot more and more subtly than spelling out what has not been mentioned with four times as many words which in no way covers all the characteristics which might be attributed to the simple four word phrase. Take care. Vern

Dallas Wright wrote:
vern wrote:

Here's a start, but a google search will give you about 10,800,000 more sources. Take care. Vern

Metaphor vs simile
Metaphor vs Simile. Metaphor and simile are often confused due to their similarities. But in fact, the two imply different aspects of language. Just to start with, we can say that a simile is a metaphor, but all metaphors are not similes.
Difference Between Metaphor and Simile
www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-metaphor-and-simile/

Is this answer helpful?
What is the Difference Between Metaphor and Simile?
https://www.dailywritingtips.com/what-i … between...

The terms metaphor and simile are slung around as if they meant exactly the same thing. A simile is a metaphor, but not all metaphors are similes.
Simile and Metaphor—What’s the Difference? | Grammarly
https://www.grammarly.com/blog/whats-th … tween-a...

Simile vs. Metaphor Quiz. Both similes and metaphors add color and depth to language. Share your favorite similes and metaphors in the comments! Grammarly is a must-have
I

https://img1.etsystatic.com/072/1/98380 … 3_gzd2.jpg
LOL
Just messin’ with you, Vern.  ;-)

It is funny, even without context for the uninformed. Take care. Vern

Here's a start, but a google search will give you about 10,800,000 more sources. Take care. Vern

Metaphor vs simile
Metaphor vs Simile. Metaphor and simile are often confused due to their similarities. But in fact, the two imply different aspects of language. Just to start with, we can say that a simile is a metaphor, but all metaphors are not similes.
Difference Between Metaphor and Simile
www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-metaphor-and-simile/

Is this answer helpful?
What is the Difference Between Metaphor and Simile?
https://www.dailywritingtips.com/what-i … between...

The terms metaphor and simile are slung around as if they meant exactly the same thing. A simile is a metaphor, but not all metaphors are similes.
Simile and Metaphor—What’s the Difference? | Grammarly
https://www.grammarly.com/blog/whats-th … tween-a...

Simile vs. Metaphor Quiz. Both similes and metaphors add color and depth to language. Share your favorite similes and metaphors in the comments! Grammarly is a must-have
I

Dallas Wright wrote:
vern wrote:
Dallas Wright wrote:

I’m not smart enough to understand what you just wrote, but thank you for typing it.

PS: You might take a good hard look at that note from Stendhal.  LOL

Also, some people distinguish between “writers” and people that “type stuff”
Take care.

Well, you tried, bless your heart. Take care. Vern

My grandfather.  He’s eighty-four.  A curmudgeon, grumpy old sonofabitch.  He can't hear, he's about half-senile, bored a lot.  Sometimes, in a group of people having a conversation, he’s just half-listening.  When he doesn’t have anything substantive to add, or when he just wants to stir things up, he lets one rip and just sits there in his own fetid stench and grins as he watches what happens.

I'm sure he loves you just the same. Take care. Vern

Dallas Wright wrote:
vern wrote:
Dallas Wright wrote:

"By train, plane and sedan chair, Peter Ustinov retraces a journey made by Mark Twain a century ago. The highlights of his global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector."

“I see but one rule: to be clear. If I am not clear, all my world crumbles to nothing.”
Stendhal, writing to Balzac

To be clear or not to be clear … yes, that is the goal for sure. But if one has to inform the reader with a comma that the demigod is or is not the collector of dildos, then the author should not be worried about said reader and would surely have described the demigod who just happens to collect dildos as such in a more pragmatic way or perhaps said author needs a different hobby. Clear is not always for everyone as a simple overwhelming majority will do in most cases. Take care. Vern

I’m not smart enough to understand what you just wrote, but thank you for typing it.

PS: You might take a good hard look at that note from Stendhal.  LOL

Also, some people distinguish between “writers” and people that “type stuff”
Take care.

Well, you tried, bless your heart. Take care. Vern

Dallas Wright wrote:

"By train, plane and sedan chair, Peter Ustinov retraces a journey made by Mark Twain a century ago. The highlights of his global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector."

“I see but one rule: to be clear. If I am not clear, all my world crumbles to nothing.”
Stendhal, writing to Balzac

To be clear or not to be clear … yes, that is the goal for sure. But if one has to inform the reader with a comma that the demigod is or is not the collector of dildos, then the author should not be worried about said reader and would surely have described the demigod who just happens to collect dildos as such in a more pragmatic way or perhaps said author needs a different hobby. Clear is not always for everyone as a simple overwhelming majority will do in most cases. Take care. Vern

Oxford comma, Harvard comma, and/or Podunk U comma, is all in the eye of the beholder. Good grief, Charley Brown, use it or don't use it; if there is no right or wrong, let your publisher figure it out if it will use more ink than necessary, and if you self-publish, you can make your own decision. Five cents,,, please. Take care. Vern

I would say that this should be posed to whatever group (other than Premium) you wish to have that contest within as they are "free" to make their own rules per se. Each group may have their own forums, contests, reviews, whatever. Does it work? Apparently not so well as intended in most cases. Of course that all depends upon the group dynamics. I suppose it depends on the abilities of the moderator and the cohesiveness of the members to maintain the activity over time. However, all other groups I have joined have fizzled over time and it seems to me at least, that they only siphon the vitality of the Premium group as evidenced by less participation in reviews, forums, and contests. Only my thoughts, of course, and I'm sure some may disagree. Hey, it could me. Take care. Vern