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Hang'em High In Space

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Lord of the Rings In Space -- A Saturn Tale

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Mamma Mia In Space.

Debbie Green wrote:
Dirk B. wrote:

Twas the Night Before Christmas
...
His eyes -- how they twinkled;
His dimples: how merry,
His cheeks were like roses,
His nose like a cherry...


Exactly.

This is exactly right. If you are writing a preposterous poem or tale, then the more "rules" you break, perhaps the better for the humorous effect. Doesn't quite work the same for a more traditional novel or short story. Still, rules were made to be broken or have exceptions. Take care. Vern

Using the eyes to express emotion which they can't do is similar to using dialogue tags which denote actions that do not generate speech -- you can't laugh, giggle, smile, bark, etc. words in dialogue. Do people understand what you mean when you use such tags? Yes, they do. But does it serve the primary purpose of a speaker tag - to identify the speaker. No, it doesn't. People, even famous authors still resort to such things on occasion and they get away with it. Why? Because they can and they know they can. Now, the question becomes, "Can you get away with it?" Obviously, if you think you can and are comfortable that your audience will also be comfortable with it, or at least accept it, then you've nothing to lose. The decision will be yours up until some future traditional publisher says change it and you'd rather do so than not make the sale. Good luck either way. Take care. Vern

Rather ironic, we learn the so-called "rules" of writing and then we can't help but notice all the exceptions by authors who are actually making money by not following them. Life ain't fair. But as Luke Peters would say, "It wouldn't be fair if life was fair." Take care. Vern

The more we think we learn, the more we see "mistakes" in other works. Kinda like the English teacher who is always catching mistakes in the way people talk. The one on the receiving end may not see the "nit-picking" as a mistake, only natural speech despite the technical incorrectness which the "expert" will notice. I do see things which give me pause in most anything I read anymore, but I try to ignore the interruptions as they detract from the enjoyment and there ain't a damn thing I can do about it after the fact. Once it is spoke, it can't be unspoke. Take care. Vern

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Debbie Green wrote:

Vern: The dappling is the most important part - or the part my character's brother is watching.

Yes, it certainly appears to be the most important part of the excerpt. That is why I suggested you might use the dappling to "show" the sparkle and dazzle without having to "tell" the reader it sparkles and dazzles. Of course others may disagree with that assessment and there is nothing wrong with some telling within a story; it is doubtful a good story can be told without some telling. Take care. Vern

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Dallas Wright wrote:

And to think, with a couple of keystrokes or a flip of a page, this rabbit hole could’ve been spared completely....
George, Charles, and Noah are looking down from heaven and saying, “WTF?”

Probably true, but some rabbit holes are fun to go down. Just ask Alice. Take care. Vern

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John Hamler wrote:

Personally? Well, I love how Debbie Green hung in there for the first few advice columns, but then...

Well, then she shut herself up and was like...

THIS SHIT IS GETTING TOO GODDAMNED SCIENTIFIC FOR ME and I'M outta HERE!~

I dunno. Just made me laugh is all.

It's fun to be silly.

Cheers

John

And this bit of "a-cute" observation made me laugh as well. Thanks, John. Take care. Vern

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Sideman wrote:
alkemi wrote:

What about gravitational bending of light, would that count as refraction?


Probably not as refraction is normally the passing of light through a tangible medium. If you apply the principles of Loop Quantum Gravity with General Relativity, by means of the Planck Scale, it indicates that gravitational pull passes the light through a vacuum which causes it to bend, due to a change in velocity. Because the light has not passed through a medium of tangible mass (it passed through a vacuum) it is therefore not refracted, by the definition of refraction.

Einstein agrees with Sideman. He called it "bending light" so it's probably safe to say he would have called it "refraction" if that were the case. Take care. Vern

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Go Genesis. Take care. Vern

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Reflection is the word, but there also might be another question within your example. Do you need to tell the reader it is sparkling and dazzling or might you simply show it with the reflected light creating dapples in the yard and such -- which you are doing anyway. Just a thought. Take care. Vern

Dirk B. wrote:
Seabrass wrote:

My issue is with 'Joseph pleaded'. Let the dialogue do the pleading. Let the speaker tag just say 'said'.

As for the second line, I might do an action instead: God was silent for a moment. "Her time has come, Joseph. Have faith."

Relying solely on said probably means using an exclamation mark in the dialogue. I got schooled for too many of those recently. I took advantage of the italics of mind speech to eliminate God said, although I like that God was silent for a moment. I'll add that in.

It seems to me that using italics would be more confusing since it is for "thoughts" and if Joseph is "hearing" the "thoughts" then they are actually "spoken" words rather than real thoughts. Does God have inner thoughts, don't know, but if so, how would you denote them, and if not, why would He have "thoughts" merely for someone to hear. What would distinguish that from speaking? Just some random thoughts -- written out. Take care. Vern

Or it could be, "sayeth the Lord" for variety or Biblical familiarity, depending upon other context. Take care. Vern

I think this is one of those times that the sound to the ear is probably a good guide. "Among" the hurricane or "Amidst" the trees just sounds awkward whether within the strict rules of grammar or not. It is definitely not a distinction I would be concerned about should a character utter a sentence using such words. If it sounded weird, then I would probably rewrite the sentence to avoid it altogether rather than checking to see if some rule was bent or broken. That's the way I see it and will probably write it in the future present. Take care. Vern

Pretty much the same way "look" could be treated in another post. You describe something which would indicate the head shake as opposed to saying "shook his/her head" in the same way you would describe what someone is seeing as opposed to saying "look" before doing so. Good article. Take care. Vern

You don't really have to say "look" in any way or use synonyms for such. What are you seeing when you "look" at someone's face or whatever it is you're "looking" at? That's what you describe and in doing so, it is obvious you had to "look" in order to see what it is you're looking at. Why say "I looked at her eyes" or any semblance of such when you are going to go right ahead and show the reader what it is you are "looking" at. If you say she has blue eyes, then you must have looked and the reader can figure that out without being told direct; it's like beating them over the head and telling them, "Look, damn it, or else you're gonna miss what I'm about to tell you to look at." Okay, look, that's my opinion. Take care. Vern

"Practice doesn't make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect." Courtesy Lee Trevino I believe, but would certainly apply to writing as well as golf. Writing the same old stuff doesn't improve anything no matter how much you write. Take care. Vern

Use your favorite books to read. Study the presentation of voice, dialogue, description, transitions, pace, foreshadowing, characters, sub-plots, etc. We often learn more by examples we enjoy than from self-help books. Punctuation/grammar would probably be an exception to that philosophy. Take care. Vern

Hi, LA, welcome to the site. Depressing experiences of the memoir type can be handled in different ways and of course the "voice" is crucial to the acceptance by the reader imho. As you mention the HEA results, the things leading up to that are key elements of tension, obstacles, character building, etc. which make for a good story. Depending upon the voice chosen, unpleasant experiences can be presented in a palatable manner for the reader whether gut wrenching or a more lighthearted style. I invite you to check out my novel Root Hog or Die for an example of the lighter side. It is a "memoir" basically, but uses composite characters to protect the guilty. There is no need to leave a review unless you wish to make a comment. Good luck with your writing. Take care. Vern

PS: If you decide to read, all chapters of RHOD beyond the first three are inactive, but I will gladly activate should you wish to continue.

This article has an interesting take on genre and writing to a target audience. Perhaps you will agree with it. Follow the link below. Take care. Vern

http://www.writersdigest.com/online-edi … hooses-you

Deckland Oz wrote:
vern wrote:

Agents specialize in one genre? I think not as evidenced by small sample from A.A.R. below. Take care. Vern

I said agents specialize in specific genres, plural, not "one genre" as you indicate above. So your list only proves my point: those are the genres in which those agents specialize.

But again, what's important is simply that if you have no idea what your genre is and you don't state what it is in your query, your chances of an agent asking for pages are severely diminished. Remember that a book is a package deal, now more than ever. For an agent to spend her precious time looking at your book she needs to know from the outset that it is something she can really sell. That means it needs to hit a number of essential points; genre is one of those points. As for genre, it too must hit certain points, i.e., the criteria for that genre. To assume that your writing and your query are so marvelous that they'll simply blow any agent away without consideration for the practical aspects of how it will be sold and marketed is a bit arrogant, and really quite foolish. If you are serious about getting published, you probably want to use every tool at your disposal. Genre is one of those tools.

But listen, I'm not here to argue. I'm sorry if I've put a bee under your bonnet. It certainly isn't my intention. If you disagree with the way I see things, and with the importance of knowing your genre from the start, I've no problem with that. Maybe you're right and I'm full of stuff and nonsense. Probably so. But I have worked in the belly of the beast; I have some idea what I'm talking about.

I don't question your experience in the industry. I agree that the genre is important to the agent/publisher going forward with marketing, etc.  What I don't agree with is that it is imperative to know what that genre might ultimately be in the eye of said agent/publisher. My point is that you pick the genre the way you see it and then don't waste a lot of time worrying about whether it is "right" or not. If the agent/publisher thinks it should be something different (and not everyone is going to agree) then they will use whatever they deem the most marketable for them.

Personal story. My first query letter many years ago when I didn't know what a query letter was and made no mention of genre got a very positive response. I had recently joined a writers' group and the initial reaction to my first presentation was that it read like an English 101 essay. It was suggested I change the voice to that of the child protagonist -- much the same way the original To Kill a Mockingbird was switched to the voice of Scout, not the adult. After making the voice switch on the first few chapters, I received many wows and decided I was ready for the big time.

I sent a letter to a reputable agent in NY with no mention of genre as I had no idea what should be in a query letter. I simply wrote the letter in the same voice as the child protagonist and explained my fits and starts in completing the story over many years due to putting food in my belly, etc. The agent responded in the same voice as my letter requesting a sample of three chapters or fifty pages (not sure exactly what it was all these years later) which I sent. Still no mention of genre by me or the agent.

The agent then requested the full manuscript suggesting it might fit in mid-grade. I sent the full manuscript with my opinion that it might not be suitable for mid-grade as the story evolved into more colorful language and graphic activities associated with coming of age. My mistake was that in my eagerness, I did not take the time to revise the rest of the manuscript into the same voice and gentler presentation. Thus the full manuscript was rejected, but it had nothing to do with me not placing it within a specific genre with my query letter. That is my point. Sure, you should state the genre in your query, but not being certain of what that genre is should not be a problem to lose sleep over. It is more of a big deal for the agent/publisher than it is for the author and said agent/publisher knows where to put it if the story has merit. That's the way I see it. Take care. Vern

Agents specialize in one genre? I think not as evidenced by small sample from A.A.R. below. Take care. Vern

Biography, Memoir, CHILDREN'S and Y/A, Cooking, Food, Wine, FICTION, Mystery, Thrillers, Romance, Science-fiction, Fantasy, Young adult
Jim McCarthy
Dystel and Goderich Literary Management


African-American, Arts, Cinema, Photography, Biography, Memoir, Comedy, Humor, Erotica, FICTION, Gay + Lesbian, Historical, Horror, Music, Musicals, Mystery, Thrillers, NONFICTON, Pop culture, Entertainment, Religion, Spirituality, Inspiration, Science-fiction, Fantasy, Women's literature, Young adult
Ethan Ellenberg
The Ethan Ellenberg Literary Agency

Biography, Memoir, Business, Investment, CHILDREN'S and Y/A, Comix, Graphic novels, Early readers, FICTION, Middle grade, Mystery, Thrillers, NONFICTON, Picture books, Romance, Science, Technology, Science-fiction, Fantasy, Women's literature, Young adult
Kimberley Cameron
Kimberley Cameron & Associates

Query by Email or Mail
Biography, Memoir, Cooking, Food, Wine, FICTION, Health, Diet, Historical, History, Horror, Literary, Mind, Body, Spirit, Mystery, Thrillers, NONFICTON, Parenting, Family, Politics, Current affairs, Pop culture, Entertainment, Relationships, Family, Religion, Spirituality, Inspiration, Science, Technology, Science-fiction, Fantasy, Self-help, Travel, World cultures, True crime, Women's literature, Young adult
Deborah Schneider
Gelfman Schneider/ICM Partners
Currently not accepting queries
Biography, Memoir, Cooking, Food, Wine, FICTION, Health, Diet, Literary, Mystery, Thrillers, Narrative nonfiction, Politics, Current affairs, Pop culture, Entertainment, Science, Technology, Science-fiction, Fantasy, Women's literature
Shira Hoffman
McIntosh and Otis, Inc.
Email only
Biography, Memoir, Comedy, Humor, Comix, Graphic novels, FICTION, Horror, Middle grade, Mystery, Thrillers, New adult, NONFICTON, Pop culture, Entertainment, Romance, Science-fiction, Fantasy, True crime, Women's literature, Young adult
Barbara Lowenstein
Lowenstein Associates

African-American, Business, Investment, FICTION, Health, Diet, Historical, History, Middle grade, Mind, Body, Spirit, NONFICTON, Politics, Current affairs, Professional, Reference, Science, Technology, Science-fiction, Fantasy, Women's literature, Young adult

Deckland Oz wrote:

Wait! Are you Vern's female alter-ego? Okay. Well, that's cool. I'm not judging.

Oh yeah, you're cool. Take care. Vern