Grammar Questions

Tense and person are two different things, like mayo and ketchup, and you don't always use them in the same way. (Mustard doesn't apply here.)

Suppose this happened last week, or last month, last year, etc.--use past tense: I was in a hurry. Old lady McMurcher checked everyone's desk at nine o'clock sharp to make sure they didn't cheat the company out of a few minutes. As soon as I saw Binny open his mouth, I flipped him the bird.

Of course, if you're writing the whole story in the present tense, use present tense. Example: I make it into the office just as the clock reads nine.
"Hey, gorgeous--you're late again!" calls Binny across the hall. I flip him the bird, because he deserves it.

BUT you might be writing a story in the past tense when an ongoing condition/ situation that continues to this day arises. So you use both. Example: I saw him open his mouth to yell at me, and I flipped him the bird. I hate that guy. I flip him the bird whenever he needs it. (ongoing situation)

OR I flipped him the bird, because I flip people the bird when they need it. I'm that kind of girl. (ongoing condition)

Now, horseradish...

Don Chambers writes a lot of his stories in first person, present tense. So I believe he would write it: I flip Binny the bird. You can tell a story as it is happening, which is present tense. Send him a message if you want him to comment on this. He's not very active on the site at the moment.

In thinking about this "correct" use of grammar in writing our stories, I thought about how we use "I vs Me" when speaking conversationally in reality or often times in writing. We all pretty much would say "Johnny and I went to school" which would be correct. But we also more often than not will say "Me and Johnny took a trip" which though incorrect grammatically is more the norm than not because it just sounds better to the ear than "I and Johnny." That would also be the case with the scenario presented by Tirz.

So, let's expand this line of thinking into a hypothetical scene about Tirz's character in Plum:

***Me and Binny got into an argument because he washed my drawers with his crotch rot underwear. So, I slapped him silly when I found out and he got mad and jumped in his car. I'm flipping him the bird while he's driving away staring at me scratching my hooch because just thinking about what he done makes me itch like crazy. When he drove into a fire hydrant and it burst, filling his car with water, I'm laughing my ass off which I shouldn't have done, but it at least made me forget about my itching vagina. ***

Now, mind you, these aren't Tirz's words from her novel, but they are pretty much in character with the voice of Plum though Tirz says it a whole lot better. You might have legitimate grammatical questions from the first "Me and Binny" to the changing tenses throughout, but they all fit with the voice and character even if not quoted directly because the narrator is speaking in a conversational tone to the reader and she is a bit quirky to say the least. That's the way I see this debate about "correct" grammar. Take care. Vern

I did finish Plum.  I just haven't posted the end.   I just get frustrated when editing it...as I have conflicting advice.  It is not a book for traditional publishing.   I just want to fix the grammar and be done with it. 

Sigh.

Hi TirzahLaughs,

Both can be correct, but here's the catch: you must pick one and stick with it throughout.

First, you have to decide if your narrator is telling the reader a story that has already passed (this is usually a framed story, where the narrator makes it clear at the beginning that they are going to tell you about something that happened, e.g. "It all started on my tenth birthday...") or if the reader is walking alongside the narrator through the story. Both are valid narrative structures. In the first case, use past tense. In the second case, use the present tense. And never vacillate in between.

To use the example from this thread:
"So, I slapped him silly when I found out and he got mad and jumped in his car. I'm flipping him the bird while he's driving away staring..."

The issue is "slapped" is past tense, while "I'm (am) flipping" is present tense.

It could be:
"So, I slap him silly when I find out and he gets mad and jumps in his car. I'm flipping him the bird while he's driving away staring..."
-or-
"So, I slapped him silly when I found out and he got mad and jumped in his car. I flipped him the bird while he drove away staring..."

Good luck untangling!

I think, as you are trying to capture HER voice, you need to decide what she would say, and then stick with it.
Read it outloud a couple of times, see what you think if you change it about, then decide what SHE would say.
Then, as you say, keep driving

There are books written entirely in the historical present.

Agreed that you should review, as much as possible, within the author's style.  But sometimes that style works against the story or the telling, so your best contribution will criticize style.  In which case, you should keep it gentle and constructive, especially when reviewer and author haven't come to understand each other.

It is not true that the story has already occurred if it's being told to the reader. Even a past tense story can still be unfolding in real time; it's just that things are being told to the reader the second after they occur, rather than right as they occur, which would be present tense. The story turns and events can be just as surprising and unknown to the narrator as they are to the reader. If your story is told in the simple past overall, all action should be in past tense, but whenever your narrator adds commentary, which is merely spoken thought, even if your story is told from the distant future and looks back, tense can switch to present when what is said is still, typically or always true. When you don’t shift, it puts your narrator in the grave or creates strain or an untruth. Just remember to switch back for any action.

[e.g. I couldn’t stand cake… VERSUS I can’t stand cake, so as they brought out that hellish thing with its mountain of frosting, a snarl contorted the left side of my face.]

"I couldn’t" would mean it’s no longer true or the character is deceased. If the commentary is still true—Graduates from my college get key positions ...Valentine’s Day reminds me of the day my dad walked out on us… Mick’s Diner has the best burgers … She sucks the big one ...The Dallas Cowboys are America’s team—present is fine, then, it’s back to past tense for the action. Everything should sound natural and conversational from the point in time in which you’re telling it. People in real life do not think or say any present truth in past tense, even if they’re telling someone something that happened decades ago. Many writers struggle with this sense. They intuitively know they’re saying something incorrectly with a past tense verb when the said commentary is ever-true, so they plug in a present tense verb until some hired and well-meaning editor scratches it out with a red line and says, ‘Switch to past tense. Be consistent’.” They just shrug their shoulders and do what was suggested because a pro must know. No, you know. If it’s not action we’re talking about but commentary and a story-present-truth, regardless of its time frame, present is fine.

It's a fallacy when people say that stories in past tense are from some distant point in the future or that it has already happened. In your case with the flipped bird, in a story that has already occurred that she's telling, it should be past tense because it's action. The reason you are getting conflicting stories is because present tense is more common now, but it's not the only way to tell a first person story. Present tense is difficult to maintain and wield. And people using past tense feel that verb stain I mentioned with the commentary.

Just think: any action = past tense. Commentary, random tidbits, truth, audible or internal thoughts along the journey = are cool as present.

Doesn't it depend on when it is being told to the reader? The story could have occured in the past, but the telling is in the present. So the tense would be present tense when the aside comments pulling the reader into the story are made, and in past when the story is being told.