451

(26 replies, posted in Writing Tips & Site Help)

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

Dirk, in  your example, the -ing verb is preferable. I think what you need to avoid are the was/were...ing verbs. She was standing in the rain vs she stood in the rain.

Sure, but that does not give any reason for preferring [comma] participle rather than the verb itself not in past-progressive tense like dove which preceded it in simple past tense. 

Like our other Janet, are you thinking one can merely replace the was before the  -ing word with a comma?

No, I'm not. She laughed hard, shaking her shoulders. Shaking makes this an adjective clause. She laughed, shook her shoulders. This is just bad grammar.  Shook here is a verb showing action. If you use a participle like this at the end of a sentence, it needs to be -ing. At the beginning, either can be used so long as the -ed verb describes rather than showing action. At the beginning, -ing should show action.

Shaking her head, she laughed loudly.
Drenched in booze, the man staggered across the room.

Of your examples, I would not author either of them.  As to style, it is as taken as good form to avoid -ing words as it is to avoid passive tense and weak, vague, or useless adverbs and adjective for the reason that it weighs down the narration and numbs the mind when done to excess.  In Dirk's example, my toleration for -ing words is one per page, probably lower than for most people, but in one sentence he had three in rapid succession. That is bad writing yet easily fixable.   

The alternate choice in your example is either putting the participial phrase at the beginning of the sentence as Dirk did and like you did in the second version, or and shook her shoulders. However, in the scenario Janet R created, laughed and shaking her head are simultaneous actions so only the first choice is logical - there being no reason at all to dangle that phrase at the end of the sentence.

452

(26 replies, posted in Writing Tips & Site Help)

janet reid wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
janet reid wrote:

I'm more likely to be arrested by the verb police, but here's my opinion in any case.

For the example you give, it depends. To me, the -ing verbs in the first example indicate a 'continuous' action, where in the second example, it reads/makes the action more 'abrupt'.

So you'd rather have:  dove down at the palace at maximum thrust, and was plowing into the superstructure . . .

by what logic in grammar justifies substitution , and was with a mere comma? or that a -ing participle means, like past-progressive with "was",  continuing action?  A participle is just a participle. Sloppy, lousy, lazy writing.

Just before you start throwing insults at me, just get my sloppy and lousy writing down correctly! I am guilty as charged, I'm lazy. But you know that already! wink

This is what I'd rather have with the complete set of changes I would've made:

As each remaining shield failed, the ship dove down at the palace at maximum thrust. It plowed into the superstructure, setting off enormous fireballs that shook the bunker.

This is somewhat different to what you had, and can still be wrong, lazy, and sloppy, but is more what I meant at least.

Yes, that does clarify but does not make your logic any better. How exactly is , setting better than and set?  It does not create the progressive action you say it does inasmuch as and set is third in a list of four events sequentially happening.  That is a functional purpose of simple past tense and word order. This happened, and that happened, then the other thing happened. always denotes a progression of events.

453

(26 replies, posted in Writing Tips & Site Help)

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

Dirk, in  your example, the -ing verb is preferable. I think what you need to avoid are the was/were...ing verbs. She was standing in the rain vs she stood in the rain.

Sure, but that does not give any reason for preferring [comma] participle rather than the verb itself not in past-progressive tense like dove which preceded it in simple past tense. 

Like our other Janet, are you thinking one can merely replace the was before the  -ing word with a comma?

454

(26 replies, posted in Writing Tips & Site Help)

janet reid wrote:
Norm d'Plume wrote:

One of my reviewers has recommended that I avoid verb forms that end with -ing and write the sentence using -ed verb endings.

Here is an example with -ing verbs:

    As each remaining ship’s shields failed, it dove down at the palace at maximum thrust, plowing into the superstructure,
    and setting off enormous fireballs that shook the bunker.

Here it is with -ed:

    As each remaining ship’s shields failed, it dove down at the palace at maximum thrust, plowed into the superstructure,
    and set off enormous fireballs that shook the bunker.

Verb police, please weigh in.

I'm more likely to be arrested by the verb police, but here's my opinion in any case.

For the example you give, it depends. To me, the -ing verbs in the first example indicate a 'continuous' action, where in the second example, it reads/makes the action more 'abrupt'.

So you'd rather have:  dove down at the palace at maximum thrust, and was plowing into the superstructure . . .

by what logic in grammar justifies substitution , and was with a mere comma? or that a -ing participle means, like past-progressive with "was",  continuing action?  A participle is just a participle. Sloppy, lousy, lazy writing.

http://www.writersdigest.com/online-edi … sent-tense
by Brian A. Klems
This piece is excerpted from On Writing Fiction by David Jauss.

Recently, I asked one of my talented undergraduate students why she wrote all of her stories in the present tense. “Isn’t that the way fiction’s supposed to be written now?” she said, then added, “The past tense makes a story seem kind of ‘19th-century,’ don’t you think?”

Present tense has become something of a fad, and we often use it even when past tense would serve the story better. Whatever the causes for the prevalence of the present tense in today’s fiction, it is important that we understand its advantages and disadvantages so we can better decide when to employ it.

Pros:
1. Present tense has more “immediacy” than past tense
2. Present tense can contribute to the characterization of a work’s protagonist
3. The present tense can reflect not only a character’s nature but a work’s theme.
4. Present tense simplifies our handling of tenses.

Cons:

1. Present tense restricts our ability to manipulate time
2. It is more difficult to create complex characters using present tense
3. The present tense can diminish suspense.
4. The use of present tense encourages us to include trivial events that serve no plot function simply because such events would actually happen in the naturalistic sequence of time.

456

(26 replies, posted in Writing Tips & Site Help)

Okay?  Or annoying?

(1) She wore a shiny necklace.   =  She wore a necklace that shined in the moonlight.

(2) She wore a necklace, shiny  =  She wore a necklace, shining in the moonlight.

#2 with a dangling participial phrase announced by a comma eliminates a "that" where there may already be too many, but it has an annoying quality of a misplaced adjective.

These can be re-written: She wore a diamond necklace, and its reflected light of the moon brightened her face.

There's much to those hard, to-the-point -ed verbs and participles versus lazy descriptive -ing participles.

457

(26 replies, posted in Writing Tips & Site Help)

Matthew Abelack wrote:

I think it differs based on the POV you use. I found that when in 1POV, ing verbs make sense when the 1POV character is speaking or thinking. Otherwise, stick with ed verbs.

You mean to say that mediocre narration comes naturally to a "real" person rather than to a competent author?

458

(26 replies, posted in Writing Tips & Site Help)

Norm d'Plume wrote:

Why?

The same reason an author will avoid passive verbs and useless, vague, or weak adverbs.  It weighs down the narration.

The very same reason an author actively will surely clearly avoid using passive verbs that come to his imagination when writing, weighing down the ongoing narration, making for his reading audience a boring lot of superfluous information, crunching out facts, and sweeping tidbits  of floating debris washing overboard a Titanic, sinking fast, and on and on, ad infinitum till one falls off into sleep under the hypnotic power of same-sounding  -ing words.

459

(26 replies, posted in Writing Tips & Site Help)

I think you may know my opinion is that there isn't even a choice of the first over the second.

460

(69 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Norm d'Plume wrote:

That being said, I've only ever had one reviewer come in, leave five comments at the beginning, then bail saying that he had no helpful feedback to give. Had he left before leaving the fifth comment, I could have respected that.

corra wrote:

I agree with Charles. There's always a risk at a site like this that someone will be a gigantic ass.

Okay, assuming proper social behavior does not have to include "making friends" but rather acting in a way that is remote but honest, what is not to respect of one offering five comments/suggestions and bailing with a final comment that the work is not something than can be fully appreciated by the reviewer. Is there some TNBW social prerequisite to review only that which one likes (in genre, style, subject, etc.) or, according to Dirk, be self-sacrificial and get nothing at all for whatever time and effort expended by leaving no more than 4 comments ? Is it bad to have started in on something that turns out to be dull, boring, etc. and then drop away (and taking points)? What I think is not to be respected is to do the same adding another a comment or two spread on down the chapter and then leaving no mention -- dull, boring, insipid -- other than the "good work, interesting" etc. (and taking points)?

461

(69 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Norm d'Plume wrote:

Although this thread has gone off the rails, I'm in the mood for fun. This may have already been suggested, but points could be proportional to the number of comments left. No minimums, no maximums. If you do a detailed review, whether regular or inline, you get more points than the lazy drive-by reviewers looking for a few quick points. That being said, I've only ever had one reviewer come in, leave five comments at the beginning, then bail saying that he had no helpful feedback to give. Had he left before leaving the fifth comment, I could have respected that. In my case, I've found reviewers who are very helpful to me and work hard to keep them. Since they do better reviews than I do (not for lack of trying), I reciprocate by reading more of their work than they do of mine.

Fire away.
Dirk

Yes, indeed, thank you for addressing my actual suggestion -- until unfortunately you feel the urge to trail with ... however ... let us remember we're here to have fun and make friends.  Moreover, it is exactly my point that it is not true that If you do a detailed review, whether regular or inline, you get more points than the lazy drive-by reviewers looking for a few quick points -- that, in fact, the lazy/incompetent/tired reviewer can get 5 points leaving a 5-comment review for 10,000 word chapter and get 0.5 points leaving a 5-comment review for a 1,000 word chapter, doing exactly the same amount of work for both, so that there is an incentive to pick many short chapters and ignore long chapters but also an incentive to pick long, point-heavy chapters in ratio of 10:1, here, do a crappy 5-comment review, and piss off only the one 1:10 ratio of authors.

462

(69 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:

Okay, Charles, this has been interesting, but since you (to include both versions of you) don’t appear to have the capacity and/or desire to understand plain English and respond in a rational manner, I will tax myself to refrain from trying to converse with the equivalent of a two-faced stump.  I have no delusions that this will really be the end, so don’t be surprised to see this message reiterated upon any further/continuing nonsense on your part. Until then.

It is actually quite easy to keep this going ad infinitum because you have no intellectual or factual content to convey and are a hamster on wheel turning on ad hominem, invective, insults, and lies. The subject of the discussion proceeded amongst others without your having entered it, and I gather that for those who care, a tweak to proportion the required comments to finish an inline review is desirable if not pressing change inasmuch as laziness, tiredness, or simply not caring to read the rest of a long chapter or story is a tempting surrender of responsibility, and those who otherwise finish, sometimes wading through a mass of tedious grammar, spelling, and punctuation errors beyond just the five in the first paragraph do so for reasons other than for the points. However, you and those who claim the points are not the point care not a whit about the point system for those bound to it.

I don't like hamsters, and God's kind mercy is that they do not live long.

463

(69 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
Charles F Bell wrote:

you chose to offer opinion on nothing I mentioned and voiced repeatedly how the points system sucks because it is for fools who think it can work without being taken advantage of.

vern wrote:

As always, you try to inject things you imagine. I gave an opinion on everything you suggested,

No. you didn't. You created a strawman to knock in your desire to criticize the points system.

vern wrote:

I have stated that no points system is perfect

You said it's pretty crappy.

vern wrote:

And I have stated repeatedly that the current system already does everything you think your suggestion would add to the system if used properly and not merely doing the bare minimum.


That's the strawman which is not my suggestion. If the number of comments for inline review were already proportional to the length of the reviewed piece, I would not suggest it.

vern wrote:

I have also stated that if someone wants to take advantage of the system (or any system) they can. Do you deny that?

Yeah, you've said it's pretty crappy, haven't you? repeatedly. Too bad it has nothing to do with my suggestion.

Okay, Charles, this has been interesting, but since you (to include both versions of you) don’t appear to have the capacity and/or desire to understand plain English and respond in a rational manner,

It is actually quite easy to keep this going ad infinitum because you have no intellectual or factual content to convey and are a hamster on wheel turning on ad hominem, invective, insults, and lies. The subject of the discussion proceeded amongst others without your having entered it, and I gather that for those who care, a tweak to proportion the required comments to finish an inline review is desirable if not pressing change inasmuch as laziness, tiredness, or simply not caring to read the rest of a long chapter or story is a tempting surrender of responsibility, and those who otherwise finish, sometimes wading through a mass of tedious grammar, spelling, and punctuation errors beyond just the five in the first paragraph do so for reasons other than for the points. However, you and those who claim the points are not the point care not a whit about the point system for those bound to it.

I don't like hamsters, and God's kind mercy is that they do not live long.

Norm d'Plume wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

. . . like I said.  For you do to that in fiction, in anything other than for something instructional,  would be more than annoying.

Thanks for the info, Charles. I appreciate it.

Should I put you down for one annoying copy or two? ;-)

It would be expensive.

465

(69 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Charles F Bell wrote:

you chose to offer opinion on nothing I mentioned and voiced repeatedly how the points system sucks because it is for fools who think it can work without being taken advantage of.

vern wrote:

As always, you try to inject things you imagine. I gave an opinion on everything you suggested,

No. you didn't. You created a strawman to knock in your desire to criticize the points system.

vern wrote:

I have stated that no points system is perfect

You said it's pretty crappy.

vern wrote:

And I have stated repeatedly that the current system already does everything you think your suggestion would add to the system if used properly and not merely doing the bare minimum.


That's the strawman which is not my suggestion. If the number of comments for inline review were already proportional to the length of the reviewed piece, I would not suggest it.

vern wrote:

I have also stated that if someone wants to take advantage of the system (or any system) they can. Do you deny that?

Yeah, you've said it's pretty crappy, haven't you? repeatedly. Too bad it has nothing to do with my suggestion.

466

(69 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:
Charles F Bell wrote:

Your repetition of how annoying the point system to you is annoying.

Which one of you is talking now? Whichever it is, please point out one instance where I've said the point system is annoying.


In every reply you insist there be a necessary change in the point system whereby the 5-comments can be changed (a false premise) as per my suggestion, and further argue that since the point system is taken advantage of in any way that it is or could be change into (a whine), therefore you allege by false representation of my suggestion there be a change in the point system that doubly sucks, as far as you are concerned, because you don't want to change either --- tangentially suggesting to everyone that the point system is both sucky and irrelevant, and it is all about making virtual friends irrespective of the points system. Never once addressing my suggestion per dictum, it has all been about point system you hate and nothing truthful about my suggestion.

Norm d'Plume wrote:

Actually, the use of macrons to denote long vowels dates back to the time of Ancient Rome,


No, that is incorrect, unless, as today, there was some instructional need.  Written Latin was no more spelled out in phonemes and accents than is English. I never learned Latin that way because as a dead language it is actually pointless.

Norm d'Plume wrote:

often used by the Greeks (not the Romans), who had trouble distinguishing long and short Latin vowels. They're found on papyri from that period. Most modern Latin textbooks and dictionaries use them, although primarily for pronounciation. Wikipedia does as well whenever giving Latin translations (e.g., the names/titles of Roman emperors). I prefer them as they add a bit of flair to the Latin words in my text.

. . . like I said.  For you do to that in fiction, in anything other than for something instructional,  would be more than annoying.

Norm d'Plume wrote:

I'm curious to know why IE/Wordperfect work and Google/Office don't. I would have expected the reverse.

It is obviously possible to cut-and-paste macrons into forums, but not into the posting editor which still has font bugs, as far as I am concerned.

On the other hand, for an English-language publication, that second tier of ASCII symbol characters (Latin-1, 00F, ü) is all that is allowed, and certainly nothing like Turkish or Russian cyrillic. but for French, Spanish, German, etc. which are sometimes used in English-language text. The answer to your question IE v. Google might be how much resource the designer wants to devote to holding special characters.

468

(69 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:

Of course my offer still stands to withdraw UNLESS.... If just one of you accept, then you might at least defend whichever position you choose and not foolishly try to change mine in whatever rational state hopefully remains; it's there for the reading. Take care. Vern

Your repetition of how annoying the point system to you is annoying.  Once that anyone, and that has been of the majority here, wants to discuss the idea of making the comments in inline reviews proportional, rather than fixed at five, to the number of words being reviewed, I'd be happy to have a sensible and polite conversation that you are incapable of having.

Norm d'Plume wrote:

Sol, are there any plans to support foreign language characters in the site's word processor? I have to strip all of the long vowels (āēīōū) out of my Latin words

Written Latin did/does not use characters to express long (stressed) vowels but are such in context of their position in the words.

Homō sōlus animal implūme bipēs.(for speaking) = Homo solus animal implume bipes. (for writing). like English.

English, of all the languages that use the "Latin" alphabet, is closest to Latin in that respect even in the dipthongs oi = oe, but in the middle of the word, not so in the beginning for Latin.

470

(69 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:

Do you know what a change is? Is the point system now proportional to the number of comments?


No one suggested that. You only insist that this be that because you think the points system sucks with any change or no change to the inline review reward of points. My suggestion refers in technicality to the fixed number of comments (5) for a reviewer to be awarded no points or fifty points, and to you, that would be a change in points system because you think you'd rather do less for more in the context of a points system you find onerous, or certainly irrelevant, either way.

471

(69 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:

First you suggest a change
Then you deny suggesting a change:


It is only your hatred of the point system that must turn your mind to think I ever suggested a change to the point system rather than a change to the inline review. Of course, other people think that, too.

472

(69 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Linda Lee wrote:

Charles, your frustration is warranted. It's something all of us have been through, especially when we were newer to the site. The point system is far from perfect,


Let me clear, I never addressed the rightness or wrongness of the point system but rather the unexplained arbitrariness (at least until otherwise explained) of the 5 comments required to obtain any points regardless of length of the piece being reviewed. It is Vern who hates the points system by whining that no matter what, it will be taken advantage of, so my suggestion is just stupid. 



Linda Lee wrote:

As a former torch carrier, the last thing I'd want to do is put a damper on your enthusiasm to suggest improvements. But if I could take back the time I invested in such things, I would. This is why I chose to comment, and probably why pretty much everyone commenting on this thread keeps bringing up the value of relationship building.

Okay, thank you. It is a [yes-no-can't work-don't care] suggestion, and not a soapbox upon which people like Vern can vent on how sucky he thinks  the points system is.

473

(69 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:

You might recall - if you cared to read and understand that is - that said comment was within the context of your assumption that making the points proportional to the number of comments would somehow miraculously get people intent on doing the bare minimum to review the whole story instead of front loading all the comments.

However crude this paraphrasing of my suggestion is, it is incorrect. The points awarded is determined by the number of points in the piece reviewed, but I suggested that the number of comments reached to obtain the points be additionallyproportional to the length of the piece reviewed. Your response has been unvarying that what may affect the points system (and my suggestion does not), the points system sucks and no matter any suggestion you allege affects the point system will not make it less sucky.

474

(7 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

And your 'take' in $ per hour?  I was late to a closing because some twenty-something passed out while driving on heroin.  Give me a shooting and hit-and-run over over recreational causing of mayhem any time.

475

(69 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:
Charles F Bell wrote:

I never was suggesting a change to the point system

Really? What is this:

Charles F Bell wrote:

. . that the number of points be proportional to the number of comments left.

Do you know what a change is?

The change suggested by the very subject line was never in your scope of the discussion. It has nothing to do with the points system, but rather on the setup of the inline review lacking proportionality and instead containing arbitrariness around the number FIVE. The explanation on the award of points per word of the posted work has been forthcoming in the past, and never once the object of my suggestion, though you certainly made it yours, but never on the number FIVE with regard to inline reviews.  You'd rather go on about how no matter what, any change impacting the point system, about which this discussion never was, is fruitless, so just keep it as it, sucky though you think it is.