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(296 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

Charles_F_Bell, I would like to understand what you mean but you seem to regard every question I ask as a category error, and your attempts to take me past the difficulty seem to lead me back to the same difficulty.  I would like to understand what you believe here, but my efforts seem fruitless and more frustrating to you than to me.  You've set your beliefs out, but I can't do you the consideration and give you the respect  of considering them!

I suspect that I would agree completely with about a tenth of what you say, and partly with another half.  Regardless, it would be satisfying to achieve what I've been told is called stasis (hard-long 'a'):  agreement on what the issues are, what our respective beliefs are, and where they diverge.  That doesn't seem to be possible now, and I count it a loss.

In short, I don't understand, I don't now expect to understand, I thank you for trying, and I hope that this statement is useful for you, if only to know why I've stopped bothering you on this topic.

I also do not regard "category error" as a useful expression, but I allowed you an opportunity to explain your use/meaning so that perhaps I could adapt in a discussion with you. On the other hand, I did define "anti-concept" and gave examples, and yet you simply blew past them, apparently not understanding, without further query.

wikipedia:

A category mistake, or category error, is a semantic or ontological error in which things belonging to a particular category are presented as if they belong to a different category, or, alternatively, a property is ascribed to a thing that could not possibly have that property.

I think this is akin to Kantian gibberish, but if you can cite an example within the present discussion, let me know.

Every primary word represents a concept, real or imagined. A unicorn is a real concept even if the essential characteristics are not. An anti-concept combines real and imagined for the purpose to confuse the real with the imagined. "Duty" as a simple, real concept can mean a voluntary obligation, but as an anti-concept it can add in imaginary concepts such as God, society and address that voluntary obligation as not voluntary. The word "duty" has been co-opted for an imaginary purpose. I gave the example of "Hispanic" of or relating to the Spanish language (concept) co-opted to anti-concept to mean a single ethnicity and culture which is imaginary for the purpose to confuse the issue of ethnicity and race and culture.

How does "category error" apply here?

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njc wrote:

So you use the term in that sentence to mean not a particular instance of 'anti-concept' but the anti-concept as a category?

What?

njc wrote:

Do you then regard prescriptivist grammar as a product of Progressivism?

I thought I was clear that I don't consider "prescriptivist" as meaning anything in particular.

njc wrote:

If so, I think you are mistaken.  The warhorse example, the non-splitability of the infinitive, is held originate in applying the grammar of classical languages (and especially Latin) to English.  But the classical education, involving medieval and classical Latin as well as Hellenic Greek and old Hebrew, was shunned and dis--valued (sorry, can't find the word just now) by the Progressive movement, so it seems unlikely that the atomic infinitive is as recent a development as Progressivism.

I think of not splitting the infinitive as clear writing, but in such, clearer writing does usually come from clear meaning of the words and the infinitive held together to express a single meaning is better.  Latin and ancient Greek are instructive because in structure and derived meaning the writing is simple and clear, and modern Progressive rhetoricians and polemicists do not like that all. However, progressive education and political progressivism (Fabian socialism of the artful dodge and subterfuge) is not quite the same.

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njc wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

Even in the most autocratic regimes language evolved on its own until the introduction of the anti-concept by the U.S. Progressives.

To what anti-concept do you refer in this sentence?

For example, as I gave, Latino and Hispanic for official government purposes that has streamed into the news and entertainment media. The history of Latino is a race-supremacist term to exclude Chicano mestizo Hispanics, and Hispanic is merely a language orientation or preference. The meaning of all three words was always ambiguous and Progressive anti-concepts rely on flexible meaning rather than inventing new words which usually have distinct conceptual meaning. Although Hispanic might have had a purpose to designate those whose primary language is Spanish, it does not mean that in Progressive Newspeak.

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corra wrote:
njc wrote:

I brought up the grammar issue of the generic "he" as a point within a grammatical discussion. Charles had claimed he wasn't suggesting the grammar rules were set in stone, yet he was using a nearly three-decade-old "standard" as if it was current.

Take a look at the rest of this thread, and then ask yourself why you've leapt upon the word "patriarchal" as a problem within this discussion. Memphis can say Linguist-weenie (or whatever he said), Charles can call people hicks rather than sticking to topic


It is rather more to suggest that you are an ignorant womyn who does consume whatever political pablum that makes her/it/them feel good and very little else.

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njc wrote:

So, for the sake of pushing past my somewhat Aristotelian preconceptions, let me quote my questions:

njc wrote:

I don't understand the grounds on which you argue that the descriptionist/prescriptionist dichotomy is a false or superfluous, and misleading distinction.  Are you arguing that there are no pure d's and pure p's (ie. all d's are in some measure p's, and vice-versa) or that there is no difference between description and prescription?  Or that the distinction misleads us to wrong conclusions?  Or are you arguing on some other grounds?

In other words, are you arguing that there is no distinction between describing and prescribing, or that the people engaged in one are engaged in the other, either intrinsically or by universal accident?

Yes, in the sense you implied intent is important in that The French under Bourbons and Cardinal Richelieu were intent on keeping the French language pure but in modern times it is just a matter of suggesting the word pipeline retain that foreign spelling and keep its French peep-lean pronunciation. Nazi Germany suggested sometimes successfully but more often unsuccessfully words like das Fernsprecher  instead of das Telefon and lost but won with das Fernsehen over das Television because Telefon was already widely in use and Television was not. Even in the most autocratic regimes language evolved on its own until the introduction of the anti-concept by the U.S. Progressives. Latino is not and cannot be a racial designation, but there it is on U.S. government forms and the census, nor is Hispanic an actual ethnicity but rather a language orientation, but Irish, German, etc. are ethnicities and do not show up on those forms.

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corra wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

"He" is known to be, and always has meant to be in modern English, the general pronoun for either gender...

Only up until the 1990s, when women began to loudly protest, and style books started to acknowledge that the universal "he" wasn't quite right -- though trying to figure out how to accommodate an age-old patriarchal faux-pas has proven bewildering. The latest solution is to make the antecedent plural so that the "they" pronoun makes grammatical sense.

You know that though, right? Unless you're suggesting grammar rules from the 1600s are set in concrete?

Nonsense.

Die Katze (fem. decl.) nahm ihren (fem. pronoun agreement) Platz.  - even if the cat is a male cat.

Der Wissenschaftler (masc decl.) nahm seinen (masc. pronoun agreement) Platz. - even if the scientist is a woman.

Der Hund (masc. decl,) nahm seinen (masc. pronoun) Platz. - even if the dog is female.

English is a Germanic language that lost most of its noun declensions but kept its pronoun agreement irrespective of the actual sex organs the cat, scientist, and dog possess (grammatical gender, not sex gender). In modern English like German, all nouns, with human referent, are masculine with the exception of modified feminine versions like actress, waitress, etc. (which are slowly dying out) and there being no "scientress" the word "scientist" is always masculine; with non-human referent, not so much like German, neuter.

Womyn do not just get together in the '90's and change all that.

The only time in common speech that "they" and "their" is used is to deceive by lying in omission of the sex of the person. "They [the beautiful buxom blonde] are a co-worker and we have lunch together every day, dear wife of mine."

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vern wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

anyone is free to infer from what I have said that punctuation and spelling rules are inflexible written-language rules.

So, help be clear on your position in an attempt to bring this to closure. From what I have gleaned from your statements direct or inferred, let me pose a direct question.

Cite an example where Virginia Woolf, who directed by her style did not inject punctuation normally, in publication used a semicolon incorrectly.

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njc wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

I am a strong skeptic of the possibility of AI unless AI is always to be confined to the sort of intelligence that can only produce the grammar in: Can anyone think of myself as a third sex. Yes, I am expected to have.

Glad to hear you say it.  Now, would you please explain why, per my question above, the prescriptivist/descriptivist dichotomy is, as you term it, an un-concept.  I expect I'll disagree with you--respectfully, I hope--but you have whetted my curiousity.

Because there is no such thing in a rational linguistic philosophy (or whatever this rant purports to be) or in reality as prescriptivers versus descriptivers. [See: Marx and bourgeoisie versus proletariat.]

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corra wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

... same, top-down manipulation of language...

Centuries of smothering female significance under the catch-all pronoun "he"

"He" is known to be, and always has meant to be in modern English, the general pronoun for either gender, especially since English does have grammatical gender common to Indo-European languages that does not necessarily relate the declension of the noun to a supposed gender of the noun in any case.

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You are leaving me too much to surmise your meaning.  Mostly, having had Usenet experience since the '80's, I have ignored such postings as if coming from AI that not surprisingly came from computer geeks who had poor real-people communication and social skills. There is always the "argument" or, at least the premise, which is the telling agent being different than the usual pastiche of garbage put into the mind by profs, celebrities, and crazy uncles.

I am a strong skeptic of the possibility of AI unless AI is always to be confined to the sort of intelligence that can only produce the grammar in: Can anyone think of myself as a third sex. Yes, I am expected to have.

I also think that mathematical randomness is not real randomness. It can be a good simulation, one supposes, but never real.

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vern wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
vern wrote:

To anyone who thinks language and writing are set in concrete,

Who said that? 

Straw-man argument if there ever was one.

Who said that? Really? Are you now denying you think language, to include written, is set in concrete?

Yes, I deny that. I said the punctuation rule for the semicolon is set in concrete, and anyone is free to infer from what I have said that punctuation and spelling rules are inflexible written-language rules.

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(6 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

Does anyone know how to do this?

you can buy the PDF software from Adobe or find free or low-cost software that translates to and from Word.

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vern wrote:

To anyone who thinks language and writing are set in concrete,

Who said that? 

Straw-man argument if there ever was one.

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njc wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

"descriptivists" and "prescriptivists" are anti-concepts created to provide a fallacious argument. Your hair-splitting on a fallacious argument is pointless.

Please explain the concept of 'anti-concept'.

An anti-concept is an unnecessary and rationally unusable term designed to replace and obliterate some legitimate concept or concepts.  "Social justice" is an obvious one and "duty" is a less obvious one.  Anti-concepts are devoid of essential characteristics; flexible and malleable toward any cause the renderer wishes.

njc wrote:

Please explain the fallacy you see in my distinction between prescription-for-change and prescription-for-continuity.

The Académie Française I suppose you might mean as against a free market of publishers and editors? The distinction is not as you describe. The direction you were heading is toward a debate on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

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Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

It is always amusing when the "scientist" puts his little balls in the bucket, counts them, and declares the end of the research

Amusing, yes; but if he counts more or less than two there is something wrong.

It's a good job scientists are always he's not she's or they'd be none. Research it all she likes. Zilch.


The Cartesian rationalist starts with an a priori conclusion and then finds the evidence to confirm it. That is not as bad as climate-change "science" but they are on the same order of science.

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Dill Carver wrote:
vern wrote:

With this vast increase in human knowledge, does anyone think language has remained or will remain static?

Well, Esperanto and Klingon have. But that's the advantage of a constructed language.

(Sorry, just fiddling with your balls in the bucket) wink


Do you think that; 

"...the scientist puts his little balls in the bucket, counts them, and declares the end of the research."

will ever change to;

...the scientist places their little balls into the bucket, counts them, and declares the end of the research.

It is rhetorical of course, because as society and civilization evolve, such change must be reflected within language else how would we continue to communicate accurately?

Anthem by Ayn Rand on the displacement of "I" by "we." "Their" for "his" and "Latino" , African-American" ... same, top-down manipulation of language that is the antithesis to bubble-up, damn-the-rules advocacy.

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njc wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
njc wrote:

Clever.
Do you dispute the claim or the utility of the claim?  Do you dispute it absolutely or as a matter of degree?
Or would you just asperse in my general direction?

I dispute the claim any human being does or thinks anything (pre)determined by classification. It is always amusing when the "scientist" puts his little balls in the bucket, counts them, and declares the end of the research, and then someone comes along and declares a miscount (as you just did).

Explain  please where you see a miscount.  I posited that there are two patterns of action among prescriptivists, based on purpose and intent. (I do not say conscious or un-).   If someone acts with intent, does that predetermine him by classification?  Or domyou argue that prescriptivists act without intent and without purpose to their prescribing?

"descriptivists" and "prescriptivists" are anti-concepts created to provide a fallacious argument. Your hair-splitting on a fallacious argument is pointless.

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njc wrote:

Clever.
Do you dispute the claim or the utility of the claim?  Do you dispute it absolutely or as a matter of degree?
Or would you just asperse in my general direction?

I dispute the claim any human being does or thinks anything (pre)determined by classification. It is always amusing when the "scientist" puts his little balls in the bucket, counts them, and declares the end of the research, and then someone comes along and declares a miscount (as you just did).

This discussion has been and continues to be a discussion by and for people who can't or won't spell or punctuate properly.

And while we're here, why not discuss the language of the plantation slave not being "prescribed" out of existence?

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njc wrote:

It seems to me that there are two kinds of prescriptivists: those that try to keep the herd together by prescribing what the descriptivists find and those that, like the French Academy, prescribe in order to steer the herd in one direction or another--anywhere but where it would naturally go.

There are three kinds of the rationalist: one, he who divides people into two camps and two, he who does not.

njc wrote:

The example that I remember had to do with someone enjoying a punishment and having it denied.  The word for such people would probably be a severe insult.

Oh, I see what you mean. Certainly Latin and not Greek because Hellenistic Greeks were decadent in comparison in art and practice.

njc wrote:

Hmm.  Sarah Ruden, in Paul Among the People, states that the Greco-Roman world had very non-Platonic views on sodomy and gives an example from literature or a play in which those who enjoy being raped in that fashion come under particularly severe censure.  It was apparently a dominance behavior, among other things.  (Ruden, by the way, is a Quaker.)  You might look to that for some maybe-translatable terms.  Not sure if you want to discuss them on the forum in question.

Catullus' poetry got him banned from Rome within the new morality of Augustus because of such things as might be doubly interpreted, such as being smoothed dry by a pumice stone, but I leave the train when academics want to fight over what Catullus ever really meant. He was an annoying satirist to the establishment and lived libertine lifestyle and it is not so much written in obscene words as in obscene language : I am afraid of your penis hostile to boys because you let it go where it pleases.

Norm d'Plume wrote:

I was wondering if anyone knows someone who would be willing to help me translate some English words into Latin. I've tried an online forum but am getting inadequate results
, and professional translators are too expensive. I don't need a lot of help, although some of it is curse words used by my teenage characters.

http://www.youswear.com/index.asp?language=Latin

Do you really mean "curse" words because in old style that would me "May you ...." or "May [insert god or animated spirit] do this or that to whomever. That could also be in Latin something like Pecore coierit! which is something like May your cattle crossbreed!

To "swear" is a peculiarly Protestant English reference to improper "taking an oath" usually using the name of the Lord thy God in vain. "Christ!" and "Jesus!" are oath fragment "swear" words.

Obscene words, expletives, are vulgar slang not literally translated well from language to language, but in the Latin "swear words" offered in the above URL "stercus" is a vulgar Latin word for "sterquilinium" and hence might be an equivalent vulgar English word for feces, but only might be because such words were probably never written down in anything surviving to today, and "stercus" is probably medieval Latin invented by annoyed monks. "Caput sterci!" means "S**t head" but is not known to be uttered by any ancient Roman. Like everything listed in the above URL, it's just an educated guess or completely made up. Maybe: Efutue! and Tua esque! are good and also cursing in a sense.

Foreign words, especially in a dead language, violate the simple writing rules for simple authors for simple readers. It may be in the context of the story, but how is a reader to deal with "Efutue!" uttered by a character?

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vern wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
vern wrote:

As pointed out previously, I did disengage after our initial encounter as noted here among other times:

Or: A woman without; her man is nothing.
Your first response to the above sentence: "Ordinarily the two parts of semicolon phrasing can stand alone, and the above fails. The first half ends in a preposition, has no verb, and does not make sense."
My response: "Really? I seldom deal with the ordinary. Take care. Vern"
As noted, you fully know that there are exceptions to every rule because you use "ordinarily" to qualify your statement,

Ordinarily does not have to mean without exceptions; in fact, it rarely means that. It means: it can have other uses, such as separating lists.

vern wrote:

fully aware there are no concrete rules. I then acknowledge in the original humorous vein that ordinarily the punctuation would be wrong, but I seldom deal with the ordinary. And as stated elsewhere in this thread I assumed you accepted said exception to the rules with the understanding it was a humorous response. But no, you came back later and kept harping there is no circumstance it could be a creative use with humorous intent or otherwise. So I really don't see that challenging your inflexibility is a personal attack when you continued to attack the original humorous sentence ad nauseam.

So far, I had never referred to you at all.  I was sticking to the subject. Your punctuation is always wrong for any purpose.

vern wrote:

And your “politeness” which you find so reprehensible comes through again:

Again, no reference to you, or anyone at all.

vern wrote:

And you "politely" bring it up again:

vern wrote:

And you still don’t acknowledge that you admit there are no concrete rules by your use of “ordinarily”

 

I was not addressing you, nor did I think you were even paying attention. That sentence was junk.

ordinarily = commonly = usual use (of the three possible] of the semicolon, and your use is not one of them and is always wrong

vern wrote:

in our first exchange.

You offered nothing of any substance in reply.

vern wrote:

So, I invite you again to admit you deliberately stoke the fire by claiming the rules to be set in concrete

The punctuation rules for the semicolon are rules are set in concrete.

LOL You now add selective reading to your "politeness" and obstinance and other fine qualities.  Duh, you list me by name in at least one statement above and elsewhere and refer directly to my writing in others. From this point on, anything you say on the subject at hand will be considered as a joke. Thanks for the past and future laughs. You are now officially the funniest stump I've ever talked to. LOL Take care. Vern

Sure, I "listed" your name in connection to a sentence written by you that is junk. I have more than once, even from friendly reviewers, been told that what I have authored won't sell. What's the difference? Absolutely, your punctuation-doesn't-matter junk won't sell. You can't have it both ways. Either you take the entire subject as a joke and walk away from it, or you engage with someone who does not think it is joke (in reality) with more than shallow or completely absent reasoning and ad-hom invective while disingenuously claiming that any calling of your poorly punctuated junk for what it is in any way a personal attack.

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Dill Carver wrote:
Charles F Bell wrote:

In fairness, the sarcasm I employed is as "funny" as is the original post is "funny", but you never hear any such concession from "feminists" who are really just female sexists or lesbians.

The Taliban will be discharging their AK-47's into the air in support of your views. For that I commend you. The more ammunition they expend harmlessly, the better IMO.

Feminists?

I am born of one, married another and sired two more.

Whilst your statement provides me with a niggling inclination that you might be right, I shall put it to them today for the authoritative view.

Hey, ask them what "feminists" want today that is not equal results through legal coercion? The view that the U.S. (I won't speak for E.U. nations, though I suspect it applies) has not had any need for "feminism" after 1957 was shared by many feminists at the time. The movement shifted to gender supremacists pleas -- that somehow women deserved more than they had and have had since 1957.

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vern wrote:

As pointed out previously, I did disengage after our initial encounter as noted here among other times:

Or: A woman without; her man is nothing.
Your first response to the above sentence: "Ordinarily the two parts of semicolon phrasing can stand alone, and the above fails. The first half ends in a preposition, has no verb, and does not make sense."
My response: "Really? I seldom deal with the ordinary. Take care. Vern"
As noted, you fully know that there are exceptions to every rule because you use "ordinarily" to qualify your statement,

Ordinarily does not have to mean without exceptions; in fact, it rarely means that. It means: it can have other uses, such as separating lists.

vern wrote:

fully aware there are no concrete rules. I then acknowledge in the original humorous vein that ordinarily the punctuation would be wrong, but I seldom deal with the ordinary. And as stated elsewhere in this thread I assumed you accepted said exception to the rules with the understanding it was a humorous response. But no, you came back later and kept harping there is no circumstance it could be a creative use with humorous intent or otherwise. So I really don't see that challenging your inflexibility is a personal attack when you continued to attack the original humorous sentence ad nauseam.

So far, I had never referred to you at all.  I was sticking to the subject. Your punctuation is always wrong for any purpose.

vern wrote:

And your “politeness” which you find so reprehensible comes through again:

Charles F Bell wrote:

There is no context to A woman without written as a complete sentence which the use of semicolon or full stop requires except that the writer is incompetent. A writer presenting a single word without punctuation, for example, may deliberately create his "work" with no context to be had can call it "artistic," but it is really just junk. A defender of such junk, presumably knowing better, is a cultural nihilist which is worse than being a dumbass hick.

Again, no reference to you, or anyone at all.

vern wrote:

And you "politely" bring it up again:

Charles F Bell wrote:

In the junk authored by Vern,

vern wrote:

And you still don’t acknowledge that you admit there are no concrete rules by your use of “ordinarily”

 

I was not addressing you, nor did I think you were even paying attention. That sentence was junk.

ordinarily = commonly = usual use (of the three possible] of the semicolon, and your use is not one of them and is always wrong

vern wrote:

in our first exchange.

You offered nothing of any substance in reply.

vern wrote:

So, I invite you again to admit you deliberately stoke the fire by claiming the rules to be set in concrete

The punctuation rules for the semicolon are rules are set in concrete.