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(17 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

j p lundstrom wrote:

So, even if you're not writing in first person, you've taken sides, and you can't know what the other team is thinking.
JP

You don't have to know what the other team is thinking, but it's subjective POV, so my character is allowed to assume something as fact without my having to hit the reader over the head with the fact that it's an assumption. Anyway, it had an easy fix as noted above. Remains to be seen how many of these I can purge from my writing going forward. I'm currently reading Paul of Dune (from the Dune sci-fi series), and it's loaded with qualifiers like obviously, clearly, apparently, etc. They stick out like sore thumbs.

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I'll send you to fight it out with the point of view police the next time it comes up.

Paul of Dune changed Dune canon so they could tell of an incident involving young Paul where he went offworld, even though Dune said he'd never been offworld before going to Arrakis. Paul of Dune claims that Dune was written by Princess Irulan and contained errors and omissions about Paul. Dune fans probably threw a hissy fit in the reviews about that.

Hmm. I begin to remember why Paul of Dune wasn't a great story. It's set a year after the events of Dune end and has a lot of potential. Unfortunately, the authors try to pull in material from the three House prequels, which I didn't enjoy. A lot of characters I didn't care for are reappearing, only older.

However, the story is much more understandable. The elder Herbert had a lot to say on ecology, religion, psychology, and politics, but I found some of it hard to interpret, even in my most recent reread. Paul of Dune is much clearer in that regard.

One scene in the latter where the authors missed the boat was when Emperor Paul Maud'dib addresses many great houses of the Landsraad on the old imperial home world of Kaitain.  The scene was way too short. That should have been a major chapter about Paul trying to win over the great houses to end his jihad as quickly as possible.

Ah, well. The sooner I get through it, the sooner I can start Dune Messiah and return to my half-confused state.

The cardinal asks him who he is. At first he says he's Mother Teresa, so the cardinal just frowns and waits. The dark figure sighs then quotes from the Book of Revelation about the Beast rising from the sea. The cardinal crosses himself and says, "Antichristus!", which the dark figure acknowledges with a demonic chuckle. From then on, the cardinal thinks of him as the Antichrist. After all, why would he lie? ;-)

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Yup. My thanks to all for an interesting discussion.

Also, Ray, if you read the chapter, then as far as I'm concerned you should take the points, even if you have to switch to a regular review. Seabrass says the same thing. I usually have a difficult time finding enough things to inline comment on in his stories, except for a rare typo or details on stuff I can't picture. Personally, I'll never need the points, so I don't go out of my way to collect them.

I fixed it by having the dark figure identify himself as the Antichrist, which I didn't do until yesterday. I went back and forth about whether to do that so early in the story, but it's no secret that the Church will come to believe they and Connor are being stalked by him (it's in the book summary). I figure get him in there right from the get-go.

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Cool. Here's a fix.

Before:

While Andolini continued the rites, Connor closed his eyes and furrowed his brow. He slowly rotated his head back and forth, as if sensing something Romano could not.

After:

While Andolini continued the rites, Connor closed his eyes and furrowed his brow. He slowly rotated his head back and forth, pausing now and then.
What’s he sensing? Romano wondered.

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Law & Order always throws out false leads. Ditto for Agatha Christie and Hercule Poirot. In your examples with Mary, the reader is owed an explanation at some point as to why the detective thought she was guilty. If Mary is completely innocent, I might word it differently, so the reader knows there is some doubt. I did that with the interrogation of Father Coppola. They discussed several times in the early chapters about needing more evidence. Even after they arrest him and he drops dead from a heart attack, Inspector Campagna is wondering if they just killed an innocent man.

My argument has more to do with the little assumptions one can sensibly make based on the POV character's knowledge. Romano knows Connor has special powers, and he's at the exorcism because he may have some insight into why they can't cast out the demons of the possessed woman. When he closes his eyes and turns his head from side to side, it's prefectly reasonable for Romano to assume Connor is sensing something related to the exorcism in progress. There's no reason for the as if. If Romano's assumption is wrong, it will have to be explained and maybe even foreshadowed.

By including as if and similar words whenever there is a reasonable assumption being made, it flags every one of them with an implied: Watch out! This may be wrong! As CJ noted, an author's attempt to make the MC completely objective when the story doesn't require it pulls me out of the story. The deeper the POV of the MC, the more those moments stand out when they shouldn't.

ray ashton wrote:

Jesus. Are there really that much repeats of 'dark figure' in the post? I'm usually very keen on avoiding repeats...

Ray

It takes real skill to produce crap like that and not notice.

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No, that's not what I meant, John. I'm objecting to having use words like: as if, apparently, obviously, most likely, etc. to avoid a pov slip when common sense says the pov character is making a reasonable assumption based on the information he has available. I follow the herd, but I do so unwillingly. I'm tempted to start breaking that rule in my next draft.

Also, Herbert made a point of Alia telling Paul that the Baron felt very little pain as he died. Personally, given everything the Baron did to Paul and House Atreides, I'd pick the nastiest poison in the arsenal.

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I find this definition interesting. It's from literarydevices.net. Bold emphasis is mine.

A subjective point of view is something based on one’s opinions, perspectives, beliefs, discoveries, desires, and feelings. It has no concern with right or wrong, other than the person’s opinion of what is right and wrong. ... Third person point of view can also be subjective. It is known as “limited omniscience,” in which a writer knows every detail about a character and sees the whole story through that character’s eyes.

This brings to mind an earlier post of mine about an exorcism scene, where my POV character, Father Romano, watched Connor close his eyes and slowly turn his head from side to side, as if sensing something Romano could not. It's the as if (and similar wording) that always annoys me. Without it, I'm told it's a point-of-view slip since Romano can't know with absolute certainty why Connor is turning his head.

My point was/is that Romano has enough information about Connor and the scene to make an accurate guess. It's Romano's subjective POV, and he's entitled to his assumption, right or wrong. If it turns out to be right (it is), then there's no need for as if and the story continues unimpeded. If it turns out to be wrong, that would come out later in the scene anyway (e.g., "Oh, you thought you smelled a fart? I misunderstood."). as if adds nothing unless there's a need to foreshadow that the assumption could be wrong.

I find it interesting/unusual that Frank Herbert chose to end Dune with Jessica's views of being a concubine ("history will call us wives"), rather than focusing on Paul.

Turns out I already own Paul of Dune, which is the younger Herbert's immediate sequel to Dune. Do I read it next or jump to Dune Messiah as Frank Herbert intended?

Is this too silly? I'm trying for Rutger Hauer in the original Bladerunner. He frequently smiled playfully even though he was a merciless killer.

Vitale’s eyes went wide and he struggled to stand. “Who … who are you?”
The dark figure smiled playfully, the outline of his lips barely visible. “Mother Teresa.”
Vitale frowned and waited.
The dark figure shrugged. “Nobody gets me. So be it. Here’s a hint from Scripture: ‘And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads; and on its horns were ten diadems, and on its heads were blasphemous names.’”
Vitale crossed himself. “Antichristus!”
The Antichrist chuckled demonically. “Much better.”

Problem eliminated. I decided to have the dark figure reveal himself as the Antichrist right after he arrives. From then on Vitale only thinks of him as the Antichrist. I also added that Vitale thinks he knows him from somewhere, but can't figure out where because the Antichrist is hiding in shadows with fake eyes and a fake voice.

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Your not alone. My story is set in the present in Rome, the Vatican, and the Holy Land. I have only limited information in English about how those regions are handling the pandemic. It would require significant changes to incorporate the pandemic. Since it's still very early in the pandemic saga, I've decided to write my first draft without it. There'll definitely be a second draft, so I'll make my decision then. If I had to choose now, with so little information available, I would turn back the clock far enough that book one would precede the pandemic. Since mine is about the Apocalypse, I can easily incorporate it into books two and three as one of the many plagues that will affect humanity in the End Times.

v7

I wore myself out trying to figure out how best to solve the repetitive references to dark figure. Finally decided to just delete roughly half the references to dark. Lots of references to figure, but I don't know of a better solution. His identity as the Antichrist comes too late in the chapter to play a useful role. I briefly considered referring to him as that thing (it's from the cardinal's POV), but I wanted to keep things consistent with the rest of the chapters. This is the only chapter where the overuse of dark figure/figure occurs. The story is transitioning so everyone will think of him as the Antichrist by the end of Act 1.

I agree r.e. the many references to 'dark figure'. In one of my previous versions, the dark figure claimed he was the Antichrist right from the beginning of the chapter, so all of the references to dark figure were replaced with the Antichrist. It read much better. Unfortunately, the dark figure is not the Antichrist and his true identity won't be revealed until the end. As a result, if the dark figure goes around claiming to be the Antichrist when only his victims are listening, it will come across as a cheat later when he's revealed to be someone else. Why claim to be someone you're not if the only purpose is to trick the reader? The closest I could come to justifying his lies is that he likes theater and he doesn't want to be caught off guard. Even Vitale is skeptical in the latest version of this chapter. I'll take another look at him calling himself the Antichrist, but I think it's a stretch. I need the reader to know that his claims of being the Antichrist may not be true to avoid cheating at the end.

FYI, Connor is not the dark figure. That will be ruled out in my next chapter. The dark figure is 185 cm and Connor is 175 cm. I set that up in earlier chapters, but the Pope's Council will discuss it as they try to figure out who Connor really is.

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Thank you, Rachel. I'll try a few different approaches to see which I like best.

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I thougth of a way to do it. The cardinal thinks he recognizes the hooded being, but he's not sure from where. He never gets a chance to see him without his hood.

Thank you, all, for your feedback.
Dirk

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I have a POV character (a cardinal) who has come face-to-face with a cloaked/hooded demonic being. Eventually, the cardinal grabs the being's hood and throws it back. The cardinal recognizes the being and says, "It's you!"

I want to add more material after this moment, but I'm wondering if it's reasonable for the POV character not to think about the real identity of the demonic being as the rest of the chapter unfolds. I'm trying to keep the true identity of the being from the reader at this stage of the story.

Thoughts?

Thanks
Dirk