Tess of the D'urbervilles. Novel
626 2016-03-19 04:44:20
Re: The 'Do Not Discuss List' (18 replies, posted in The Write Club -- Creative Writing and Literature Discussions Group)
627 2016-03-19 04:43:25
Topic: The 'Do Not Discuss List' (18 replies, posted in The Write Club -- Creative Writing and Literature Discussions Group)
Subjects and titles that are;
forbidden, proscribed, taboo, verboten, tabu, out, impermissible - not permitted;
...within the scope and confines of this forum.
628 2016-03-19 04:35:33
Re: Trivia and Trouble. Get it here! (46 replies, posted in The Write Club -- Creative Writing and Literature Discussions Group)
I don't believe this one is on the do not discuss list!
I shall watch it this week.
I might have a peep at the flick, but I'm not going to read the novel until Hardy personally apologizes to me for that Tess tripe.
629 2016-03-19 04:28:46
Re: Trivia and Trouble. Get it here! (46 replies, posted in The Write Club -- Creative Writing and Literature Discussions Group)
My gripe this evening is toward amateur authors who produce naff illeist bio synopsis. Trendy and arty? Pretentious and bile inducing! The third person rammed up the arse of the first. I've started a private collection.
630 2016-03-19 04:18:17
Re: Trivia and Trouble. Get it here! (46 replies, posted in The Write Club -- Creative Writing and Literature Discussions Group)
Seen this one, once (dim recollection)
The entire plot is played out within the first three lines of the poster.
631 2016-03-19 04:08:42
Re: Say the first word that comes to mind... (1,634 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
inaniloquent?
632 2016-03-19 01:49:44
Re: Say the first word that comes to mind... (1,634 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
Dill Carver wrote:Galimatias
Great new word for me.
I'll see your galimatias and raise you a glossolalia. It's the genre I specialize in.
Godwottery?
633 2016-03-18 21:04:00
Re: WHAT ARE YOU READING RIGHT NOW? (326 replies, posted in The Write Club -- Creative Writing and Literature Discussions Group)
Just finished All the Pretty Horses by Cormac McCarthy. Just began The Lords of Discipline by Pat Conroy.
Memphis
I"ve read the Mccarthy but not Conroy. I've seen the movie of the same name. It'd be good to hear your thoughts on it when done.
Cheers!
634 2016-03-18 20:58:32
Re: Literary Openings (37 replies, posted in The Write Club -- Creative Writing and Literature Discussions Group)
I started to read the novel on Monday and wondered why iI'd never head the opening line quoted before? It stuck me as a profound and compelling intro; one that quote collecters would promote. A nice suprise to me as a reader though, to encounter an unfamiliar gem.
635 2016-03-18 10:20:13
Re: Say the first word that comes to mind... (1,634 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
Galimatias
636 2016-03-16 22:38:43
Re: Literary Openings (37 replies, posted in The Write Club -- Creative Writing and Literature Discussions Group)
637 2016-03-16 22:09:16
Re: Say the first word that comes to mind... (1,634 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
obnubilate
638 2016-03-16 17:48:36
Re: Say the first word that comes to mind... (1,634 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
psittacism
639 2016-03-15 01:59:05
Re: A great loss (172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
So if I grew up inland, where the lakes and rivers are freshwater, and one day learned the hard way that a tidal estuary is salty, I would be an anti-salinist? If I were a child who wandered off his cul-de-sac into heavy traffic, I would be an anti-motorist?
Only in that world where lakes and rivers and motor vehicles are people of the same species, but different race and if you, say, a plank of wood, considered yourself inherently superior to said rivers, lakes and motor vehicles. Which no doubt, you wood. (Deliberate pun BTW)
I'm sorry sir, but I find your analogy ridiculous and although I have indeed risen to your bait, I will have no more of it. Mr Bell might be up for a ding-dong debate about it though.
Good luck.
640 2016-03-15 01:43:05
Re: A great loss (172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
(Pardon me for being uncritical, but sometimes after hours of school, I can't take a book that requires anything but passive imagination and pleasant feelings. ....Which is why I do love a cozy story. Sometimes it's just the ticket.
To Kill a Mockingbird deserves more!) x
Yes and no.
You made me think, why am I here debating this book; dissecting the characters?
Atticus is a good man doing the best that he can in bad times. A cosy story that is dear to so many. Mockingbird is a fiction. It is exactly what its editors wanted it to be, a cosy story; as simple as that. It has its heroes and villains, good versus evil, and an ending that is sad yet satisfying at the same time. It's like a Mary Poppins or a Lassie and here I am demanding validity from the fiction as if it were fact. So what if there are a few mixed morality issues if you dig deep? I may as well be criticizing the validity of Mary Poppins’ ability to fly by umbrella.
I must learn to let it be.
Why am I spending so much time and energy discussing a book that I don’t particularly like when I could be in the company of the literature that I love; or heaven forbid, writing something myself?
The argument here looks set to descend into a contentious argument upon one person’s definition of racism over another. I guess that for anyone to make or concede a point about Mockingbird, that it would always come down to that.
But hey, this conversation bought to mind that I did read and really enjoy another novel set in the USA in the 1930’s. I was in hospital a few years ago following an operation and from the Red Cross book-share trolley that was wheeled about the ward, I took a lucky-dip and happened upon ‘The Persian Pickle Club’ by Sandra Dallas. I think it is deemed to be within the genre called ‘Women’s Fiction’ and I read it under the influence of medication; but it was good, very good. It made me feel good whilst I was feeling bad. It probably sold about fifty copies to Harper Lee’s six hundred and fifty million but I’d readily give it a score of 8 to Mockingbird's 5.
Onwards, corrabird, I think that my participation within the discussion upon Harper Lee’s Mockingbird is done. I shall be active in respect of chat upon other books, over on the other channel.
In the meantime; yes… kill as many blue jays as you like; slaughter them, but never, ever harm a metaphorical hair upon the head of the mythical Mockingbird.
x
641 2016-03-15 00:21:34
Re: A great loss (172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
Dill Carver wrote:Okay I’ll get digging, but please understand that my understanding of racism is;
A person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
No. A black person may just feel he doesn't like white people generally; and vice-versa.
However, a fictional white lawyer may feel superior to black folk because he is as far he knows better educated and cultured, and as for any other people who are neither white nor male, they could be equal but also the exceptions which prove the rule.
That is the philosophy of scepticism in your thinking that definitions are subjective and the very foundation for the political-philosophy behind racism. You are a racist because you think like a racist who by no reasonable definition must think one race is superior to another race..
Brother of slain civil rights leader Medgar Evers endorses Trump
So, my understanding of racism is a 'no'.
A person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
A white supremacist or black supremacism are based upon non-racist ideologies?
Yes, I see that now.
642 2016-03-14 20:28:22
Re: A great loss (172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
I'm not saying this is not the way people in Alabama in the '30's spoke. I'm just saying that racism is endemic within that time and place and in terms of the perception of racial boundaries, Atticus is in there with the best of them.
643 2016-03-14 20:25:24
Re: A great loss (172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
It's those little things... Atticus always addresses the white folk by either prefixed by their title, i.e. Mrs., Miss, Mr. or their complete name, i.e. Bob Ewell etc. but the Negros are only ever referenced by their first name. It is like there is no respect for them and they are addressed like a pet dog.
This may just be me noticing this, as johnny foreigner. I can't find one Mr. Robinson from Atticus's (or any other) mouth.
644 2016-03-14 20:17:46
Re: A great loss (172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
Dill Carver wrote:Look out for Braxton Bragg Underwood, the newspaper owner. He openly dislikes black people and yet publicly (vociferously) defends Tom’s right to a fair trial.
I'd forgotten about him!
Dill Carver wrote:I seem to be the only one who thinks this duality is skewed morality.
Nope, I agree with you. I'm not, in this thread, defending Atticus, by the way. Though I concede I can't seem to unlike him yet, for reasons I shared offline and which are utterly fallible and personal to me, I agree that he is problematic. I shared the criticism above not to disprove your points, but to offer some context from current criticism which I haven't personally confirmed.
I was reading earlier that Alexandra tries to instill "ladyhood" in Scout while simultaneously violating its rules. This sort of subtle contradiction within the text is (I think) the basis for "thinking" Lee anticipated in readers. Like the parallel of Atticus with Underwood.
I think you're an incredibly deep reader and I appreciate you unearthing this stuff. xx
I'm looking deeply into why I sense that Atticus is an overt racist, in order to reply to Memphis...
In Chapter 20, Atticus says in response to a heinous lie;
"Which, gentlemen, we know is in itself a lie as black as Tom Robinson's skin, a lie I do not have to point out to you."
Why automatically bring Tom's skin color into it? Black is evil, right? The lie is as as symbolically evil as Tom's skin tone? I'm reading this I'm thinking WTF!!
The truth? Well, that'd be as white and pure as Atticius's skin, I suppose.
Surely someone who is not the victim of endemic racism would say;
"Which, gentlemen, we know is in itself a lie as plain as the nose on your face, a lie I do not have to point out to you."
Maybe it's just me being oversensitive, and saying, 'a lie as black as Tom Robinson's skin,' is a perfectly non-racist metaphor.
The same as saying, 'a lie as black as chimney sweep,' But hold on, the connotation there is dirty or grimy not evil. In Atticus's world a white man with black skin is grimy whilst a black man's skin is abhorrent.
645 2016-03-14 19:03:52
Re: A great loss (172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
When I read To Kill a Mockingbird again, I will look for any hints of overt Atticus's racisim. I don't remember any. I will also look for anything in the text that shows he approved of the law being applied unequally to women.
If, without a lot of trouble to yourself, you can pull out examples of this overt racism and sexism, I will carefully consider it when I read it in context.
Memphis
Okay I’ll get digging, but please understand that my understanding of racism is;
A person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
Some people think that racism requires horse whippin’ lynching and a touch of genocide to qualify.
I don’t ever feel within the book that Atticus regards himself to equal to, or the same as the coloured folk. I feel that he believes himself superior.
Earlier within the thread I asked; “Can you imagine Atticus being completely non-fussed by say, the concept of his daughter taking up a black boyfriend (of good character), or marrying a black man (of good character)?
He’s a cardboard cut-out character, so we’ll never know. But if you imagine that Atticus would be nothing but pleased for his daughter’s happiness, then he’s no racist.
I personally think that he’d take umbrage with such a situation and I'll try to extract the quotes that lead me to that conclusion.
Look out for Braxton Bragg Underwood, the newspaper owner. He openly dislikes black people and yet publicly (vociferously) defends Tom’s right to a fair trial. What’s going on there? Another one who thinks that all men are equal under the law, but are definitely not equal in daily life. I seem to be the only one who thinks this duality is skewed morality.
BTW: My definition of male sexism is the belief that men are naturally superior to women and thus should dominate most important areas of political, economic, and social life. I shall be claiming sexism based upon that description.
Cheers
646 2016-03-14 14:12:13
Re: A great loss (172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
...We know from Go Set a Watchman, written as part of the original story (but published 65 years later), that indeed Atticus was a closet racist....
I never thought Atticus was a closet racist. I thought he was an overt racist, conditioned and institutionalized by the history of the time and place he lived in. He couldn't help it, the world was the way it was. He was a good man, kinder and more polite than most. He was more enlightened than most folk at the time and truly believed that the law should not discriminate between races. Therein lay one of the baffling Atticus character enigmas that stopped me buying into the character: he was strongly opposed to inequalities in law (between men, but not women), but promoted inequalities in life.
That to me is weird and 'out of character'. Where is his true conviction? I read novels and stories all the time and when you come across an incomplete or inconsistent character it is like a bad or unconvincing actor, it just doesn't ring true. Atticus is either a poorly written character or a very well written bi-polar sufferer.
647 2016-03-14 13:48:07
Re: A great loss (172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
...We know from Go Set a Watchman, written as part of the original story (but published 65 years later), that indeed Atticus was a closet racist. Word on the street is that Lee became convinced by her editors back in 1960 to take out the Go Set a Watchman parts so that Yankees and white Southern folks like me looking for a white hero would applaud loudly and buy the book. It is the kind of marketing of the message that fools Americans to be sold on our political choices.....
That makes sense of it. Editors influence. I bet there was a great worry that Atticus might appear a communist.
Too controversial and the book becomes a hard to stomach read in a classic niche. Reign in the nasty bits and promote the provocative fluff that dances to the tune of the social political agenda of the day and you have a runaway success of the mainstream pulpy variety. Atticus is doing for the civil right movement, what Harry Potter is doing for child wizards.
I haven’t read Watchman yet, but I feel that I need to.
648 2016-03-14 13:30:43
Re: A great loss (172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
njc wrote:Dill Carver wrote:The point is that any that definition you eventually arrive at will never be correct. It might stack up for you as an individual, but it will not unilaterally satisfy mankind as the definitive explanation ...
True of all philosophy. So ... we should stop asking?
Only "true" in the sophistry of Carver's implicit solipsism - when in reality "any definition" (which is of a word created for a concept) is true to the extent it can be demonstrated to correspond to the nature of things. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-correspondence/
The only true in Bell's end, is that it is.
649 2016-03-14 13:29:39
Re: A great loss (172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)
Unrelated to your excellent points above, Dill, I was reading & found this quote, which I thought I'd share. Not as a means to refute what has been said here. Just as a means to complement it:
- We are a nation that worships the frontier tradition, and our heroes are those who champion justice through violent retaliation against injustice. It is not simple to adopt the credo that moral force has as much strength and virtue as the capacity to return a physical blow; or to refrain from hitting back requires more will and bravery than the automatic reflexes of defense.
Yet there is something in the American ethos that responds to the strength of moral force. I am reminded of the popular and widely respected novel and film To Kill a Mockingbird. Atticus Finch, a white southern lawyer, confronts a group of his neighbors who have become a lynch-crazy mob, seeking the life of his Negro client. Finch, armed with nothing more lethal than a lawbook, disperses the mob with the force of his moral courage, aided by his small daughter, who, innocently calling the would-be lynchers by name, reminds them that they are individual men, not a pack of beasts.
To the Negro of 1963, as to Atticus Finch, it had become obvious that nonviolence could symbolize the gold badge of heroism rather than the white feather of cowardice. -
- Martin Luther King, Jr. Why We Can't Wait, 1963.
Yes, Atticus is definitely a hero. He is willing to go all the way in order to pit his version of right against wrong and that is to be applauded. However, I firmly believe that Atticus (and scout) would behave the exact same way if the mob were trying to lynch an innocent white man or woman; an Asian or native American Indian; a Mexican or a dog (especially lassie).... or anyone else.
In this case the proposed victim happens to be an innocent black man and what most people, including Dr. King fail to observe is that Atticus is not acting because Tom is a negro, he is acting because he is on the side of right against wrong. He is helping an unfairly threatened person, period.
None of this heroism changes the fact that Atticus feels that Tom and Dr. King are members of what he naturally considers to be an inferior race just as he considers you and Scout to be inferior in terms of intellect when compared to a man.
650 2016-03-14 01:50:11
Re: WHAT ARE YOU READING RIGHT NOW? (326 replies, posted in The Write Club -- Creative Writing and Literature Discussions Group)
The Last Kingdom, by Bernard Cornwell(...read...)
The Pale Horseman, by Bernard Cornwell(...read...)
The Lords of the North, by Bernard Cornwell(...read...)
Sword Song, by Bernard Cornwell(...read...)
The Burning Land, by Bernard Cornwell (...read...)
Death of Kings, by Bernard Cornwell(...read...)
The Pagan Lord, by Bernard Cornwell(...read...)
The Empty Throne, by Bernard Cornwell(...read...)
Warriors of the Storm, by Bernard Cornwell(...reading...)