651

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Memphis Trace wrote:

It is most interesting to me that you and others see Atticus's racial superiority in To Kill a Mockingbird where I didn't see it until Go Set a Watchman...
..............................................
It also explains to me why I found Atticus to be a flat, and unbelievable character on reading To Kill a Mockingbird a second time, some five years before reading Go Set a Watchman. I was missing all the hints you were getting, the part of the iceberg Lee elided from To Kill a Mockingbird, to dignify my perception of the story of Atticus as the white hero I was looking for.............
...............
It also explains to me why I found Atticus a much greater hero after reading Go Set a Watchman. It gave me hope and a model for being a father and grandfather that would recognize and overcome the moral corruption pressed on me the by the history I endured and by my preconceptions to hide my moral corruption under the sort of good counsel Atticus dispensed to Scout.

I have completed my 2nd read and have considered deeply my personal feelings upon the Atticus character and the reasons I feel the character is not worthy of the hero status and sentimentality that has been lavished upon him over the decades.

My disappointment in Atticus and the book itself remain and are heightened on the second read. I’ll explain those feelings as objectively as I can.

Atticus lives in a time and place where racism is so deeply established that is has become an accepted way of life. As a white man Atticus ‘naturally’ considers his race to be superior to the colored men, but he is seen as ‘outstanding’ because he makes a conscious effort to treat black men fairly and with politeness. (This is where the condescension feelings creep in for many people). It is like the one rider, who with compassion for his horse, doesn’t whip or spur his mount like the others do theirs. 

This is the way the Atticus character is painted by the author, and that is all well and good. I think what annoys me is the mass misconception that Atticus is such a hero for being anti-racist.

He is not anti-racist, he merely makes a point of being kind and polite to black people, which is not the same thing. He never rages against the racism that his society is built upon and he certainly doesn’t believe in equality. Can you imagine Atticus being completely non-fussed by say, the concept of his daughter having a black boyfriend, or marrying a black man?

Atticus also believes (and states) the women are inferior to men. Again, he is kind and polite to women, he encourages his daughter; but his natural position is that women are the lesser sex and even instructs his daughter upon this ‘fact’ when she questions the inequality in the jury system (that Women are deemed to be incapable of understanding and rationalising with the kind of intellect that a man can). It is like he is telling his daughter that she can be anything, and all she can be…. but only within the intellectual and capability boundaries of a female. He informs her that she must realise that she can never be equal the superior sex, the male.

These points I raised previously and my feelings upon the above are strengthened by the re-read.

However, the main thing that irks me about Atticus is not what he says and does, but what he doesn’t say or do.

The racism and sexism aside, I don’t think that Atticus ever gets to the crux of the matter (neither do I think that the book gets to it).

Incest.

Incest is the dark unmentionable undercurrent of the book. It occurs within that society, within that time and place. It is the shadowy secret that some families endure and a truth that all avoid.

Tom is so clearly not a rapist and yet Bob Ewell is publicly identified as sexually and physically abusive man. Mayella Ewell is a surrogate wife for her father and a surrogate mother to her younger siblings.

The whole trial is a sham. Mayella Ewell grasping for some power, a cry for help regarding the abuse she is subject to, a mask for the feelings that she, a white girl might have feelings for Tom, a black man.

Attius bloody well knows this. At the very least he strongly suspects it (we all do, it is alluded to throughout the book). And yet he never goes after Bob in court. We feel that Mayella is only one or two forceful questions from blurting the truth, indeed, we feel that Atticus is softening her up for the killer question;

“Isn’t it true Mayella, that it is your father who rapes you, and not Tom who raped you?”

But that question, the truth, it never comes. The incest is accepted and ignored. A massive elephant with a monkey on his back weeping at the rear of the courtroom and it is skirted around because it is too deep a subject, to vast a ‘can o worms.’

What kind of man is Atticus then? Prepared to conduct a sham trial but not to confront the truth?

He is a part of that same vile establishment that protects paedophile priests; the people in power who don’t necessarily condone the act of Priests raping children, but who do nothing about it all the same. They accept it; turn a blind eye and cover up for the perpetrators. If a paedophile priest is exposed, the first defence they drum up is that the children deserved it, the children seduced the priest.

Ask people (readers) what the novel ‘To Kill a Mockingbird’ is about and they’ll all chant the mantra ‘racism.’

Ask if Atticus is a good man and they’ll cheer with a resounding unequivocal 'yes.'

As I read I’m bursting with excitement and anticipation to get to the bit where under pressure or manipulation from Atticus, Mayella Ewell confesses that her father is the actual rapist. It never comes. For me it is biggest disappointment within all of the literature I’ve ever read. From the courtroom scene on, I’m numb from the disappointment, and that is the ‘flinging the book into the hedge’ moment for me.

Harper Lee tells us; "The book to read is not the one which thinks for you, but the one which makes you think."

As Vern states in reply, actually, he prefers not to think, just enjoy.

I think that is the same apathetic state of mind that applies for most readers of this book. The charm of the precocious little girl narrator, all curly top and fight in her cute little man overalls; the upstanding white man in his respectable suit who has the courage to speak politely to a Negro fella. The good natured, wrongly accused black man who gets martyred. The vile white trash villain who get what’s a comin’.

Nobody thinks about the abuse and incest that is the very core of the story, the very core of the book. Racism is just the sideshow, the cop out, the misdirection.

I don’t know what is intentional by the author and what is not. It is either a brilliant novel or just pap, I honestly don’t know and simply can’t tell.

You see what thinking about a book does for you! Turmoil, emotional unrest and weighty theories. My advice is to follow Vern’s advice; just skim along on the surface and enjoy it like it were a cherry pie. Never, ever think about the book and above all, never, ever mention the incest.

652

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vern wrote:
Dill Carver wrote:
Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

Like or dislike, those of us on here endeavoring to create a lasting piece of literature can only hope that one day our writing can inspire such a heated debate.

"The book to read is not the one which thinks for you, but the one which makes you think."

Who wrote that?

Since we're on the subject, my guess would be Harper Lee. But sometimes I don't really want to think, just enjoy. Take care. Vern

Not thinking is the new cool. They way of the world. Glad you are ahead of the game when it come to enjoyment over thought. Take care also. Dill

653

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

Like or dislike, those of us on here endeavoring to create a lasting piece of literature can only hope that one day our writing can inspire such a heated debate.

"The book to read is not the one which thinks for you, but the one which makes you think."

Who wrote that?

654

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

The truth is that at the centre of the story in 'To Kill a Mockingbird' is not Scout, Atticus or Tom; it is actually Bob Ewell 

Warning - Spoilers!
Avert your eyes the one person on the planet who has not either read this or seen the film


http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/t … D4353.ashx

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/27/2c/56/272c566e3b9cb93db0163cb06b27939d.jpg

"We cast a shadow on something wherever we stand, and it is no good moving from place to place to save things; because the shadow always follows. Choose a place where you won't do harm - yes, choose a place where you won't do very much harm, and stand in it for all you are worth, facing the sunshine."



E.M. Forster A Room With A View

657

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:
corra wrote:

...you have often remarked on favorite American writers!

True. For instance I have repeatedly extolled the literary virtues of say, Hemingway (who happens to be American) to those who are less than impressed with his work (who have also happened to be Americans); although I have to say that I’d never considered the Nationality aspect of these exchanges until l now.

Dill Carver wrote:

...My eldest daughter once called me a 'book bully'. Apparently I become so enamoured with titles that I read and like, that I make her read them "against her will". That's a bit strong, although I may have tried to encourage her towards a novel or two...

corra wrote:

(I agree with your daughter.)

I considered my ‘book bully’ tag and realised that I’d been duped; the reverse psychology thing. My daughter has actually encouraged me (quite forcibly) to read plenty of titles that she’d consumed and wanted to share; The Kite Runner; The Book Thief;  The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas; The Lovely Bones; The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time; Goodnight Mister Tom… to name a few (the list goes on). Far more titles than I have ever recommended to her.

And you agree with her? Of course you do… I listed some of the American authors upon my shelf of favourites earlier and, M Shaara; J Shaara, Faulkner, Melville, Mitchell, Crane... possibly more; they all exist there because of your direct influence. Books that I probably would not have encountered, own and had the pleasure of, if you hadn’t recommended them. I’m not complaining, far from it. Crane? Red Badge; once read and never forgotten. Mitchell’s little ditty? Once read it becomes a part of you… it is always within your mind. The others have also expanded my mind and sense of appreciation beyond measure.

corra wrote:

...you are awfully provoking...

When it comes literature and discussion upon it I am strapped for outlets and starved of interaction. This site is about the only place where I can talk about literature in a group, and I suppose I am overly enthusiastic.  It is clear (in retrospect) that the enthusiasm leads to me being exuberant and opinionated and that might appear to be bombastic and arrogant.

If it comes across as bombastic and arrogant then it is bombastic and arrogant.

Sorry about that. I’ve been back over the thread and yes indeed, my contribution has been overbearing. I realise that I am incompetent within such a forum. I left the loosely formed structure of the British Comprehensive School system for the Army at the age of fourteen days past my sixteenth birthday.  I’ve had no adult education in the academic sense and I’ve never attended University or College. I fear this has left me ill-equipped or lacking in both experience and etiquette when it comes to conducting myself within a cultured forum of discussion or debate.

I sincerely apologise for any provocation that my overbearing nature has caused to anyone, be that on an individual or national scale. I am mortified to realise that within the expression of my opinion I have caused insult, annoyance and offence.

I openhandedly admit to the crime and would only ask, in my defence that you consider my intent. I honestly did not set out to cause such grief. I am ignorant. A bumbling ignorant oaf. This I have known all of my life, but sometimes I forget and when that occurs, the only possible outcome is that I’m reminded of it with a bump.

No worries! I aim to atone for my behavior and am dedicated to the task of reigning myself in.

That is, until the next time the oaf emerges. smile

658

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

corra wrote:

...you have often remarked on favorite American writers!

True. For instance I have repeatedly extolled the literary virtues of say, Hemingway (who happens to be American) to those who are less than impressed with his work (who have also happened to be Americans); although I have to say that I’d never considered the Nationality aspect of these exchanges until l now.

Dill Carver wrote:

...My eldest daughter once called me a 'book bully'. Apparently I become so enamoured with titles that I read and like, that I make her read them "against her will". That's a bit strong, although I may have tried to encourage her towards a novel or two...

corra wrote:

(I agree with your daughter.)

I considered my ‘book bully’ tag and realised that I’d been duped; the reverse psychology thing. My daughter has actually encouraged me (quite forcibly) to read plenty of titles that she’d consumed and wanted to share; The Kite Runner; The Book Thief;  The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas; The Lovely Bones; The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time; Goodnight Mister Tom… to name a few (the list goes on). Far more titles than I have ever recommended to her.

And you agree with her? Of course you do… I listed some of the American authors upon my shelf of favourites earlier and, M Shaara; J Shaara, Faulkner, Melville, Mitchell, Crane... possibly more; they all exist there because of your direct influence. Books that I probably would not have encountered, own and had the pleasure of, if you hadn’t recommended them. I’m not complaining, far from it. Crane? Red Badge; once read and never forgotten. Mitchell’s little ditty? Once read it becomes a part of you… it is always within your mind. The others have also expanded my mind and sense of appreciation beyond measure.

corra wrote:

...you are awfully provoking...

When it comes literature and discussion upon it I am strapped for outlets and starved of interaction. This site is about the only place where I can talk about literature in a group, and I suppose I am overly enthusiastic.  It is clear (in retrospect) that the enthusiasm leads to me being exuberant and opinionated and that might appear to be bombastic and arrogant.

If it comes across as bombastic and arrogant then it is bombastic and arrogant.

Sorry about that. I’ve been back over the thread and yes indeed, my contribution has been overbearing. I realise that I am incompetent within such a forum. I left the loosely formed structure of the British Comprehensive School system for the Army at the age of fourteen days past my sixteenth birthday.  I’ve had no adult education in the academic sense and I’ve never attended University or College. I fear this has left me ill-equipped or lacking in both experience and etiquette when it comes to conducting myself within a cultured forum of discussion or debate.

I sincerely apologise for any provocation that my overbearing nature has caused to anyone, be that on an individual or national scale. I am mortified to realise that within the expression of my opinion I have caused insult, annoyance and offence.

I openhandedly admit to the crime and would only ask, in my defence that you consider my intent. I honestly did not set out to cause such grief. I am ignorant. A bumbling ignorant oaf. This I have known all of my life, but sometimes I forget and when that occurs, the only possible outcome is that I’m reminded of it with a bump.

No worries! I aim to atone for my behavior and am dedicated to the task of reigning myself in.

That is, until the next time the oaf emerges. smile

Zekkyou Gakkyuu?

shishkebab

661

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

corra wrote:

You (within the conversation) have implied that a person who would like the book is a sentimental sheep who auto-buys silly stories about serious matters.

Did I imply that? I'm not denying it, but that must have been me at my most vociferous.

My eldest daughter once called me a 'book bully'. Apparently I become so enamored with titles that I read and like, that I make her read them "against her will". That's a bit strong, although I may have tried to encourage her towards a novel or two...  Oh, and I do tend to buy books that I like, as presents for other people at birthdays and Xmas etc. but honestly, who doesn't?

Anyone who buys a book in this day and age is a hero.

corra wrote:

I continue after eight years, though, to find your inclination to dismiss whole groups of people (particularly Americans) as fools.

If you think that, then you are a fool. An American fool. smile

I am inclined to dismiss widespread cultural 'things' rather than a people. It might happen to be that MacDonald's is in my sights. I'm decrying a principle, it's the mass marketed bland brand and 'have nice day' thing that gets my goat, not every individual in the United States of America. I know I wounded you deeply when I was irreverent about 'The Waltons' but again I was making a point about a 'type' of story rather than insulting the entire population of a sub continent.

I love many things American; I glance over my left shoulder to my shelves, my favorite shelf, and there is Robert Mason, Stephen E Ambrose, Stephen Crane,T. S. Eliot, Carson McCullers, Michael Shaara, Jeff Shaara, Tim O'Brien, Tirzah L Goodwin, Stephen Leather, Karl Marlantes, James Fenimore Cooper, Justin Cronin, Cormac McCarthy, Kurt Vonnegut, Margret Mitchell, John Steinbeck, Faulkner, Herman Melville, Stephen King, Hemingway, Thom Jones.... and there will be more if I dig around.

Shelf below; DVD's and there's cherished, beloved movies from; Oliver Stone, Stanley Kubrick, Martin Scorsese,Francis Ford Coppola, Steven Spielberg, Clint Eastwood, Quentin Tarantino... the list goes on

How could I possibly love and admire that lot with a passion whilst thinking them all fools?

Wait... I did instigate a smear campaign about Idaho once. Centered upon the Potato Museum.

Perhaps you're right!     

corra wrote:

... but a commercial just came through announcing that the latest new release is out, and I have to read it and love it sentimentally because I am an American and generally follow the lead I see in the media.

Hold on a minute! When I made the comment about people being swept along following the next big media thing I had no specific national agenda! I was actually thinking about sensations like the '50 shades of grey' take-up here in the UK.

corra wrote:

Now you are saying that the reasons people have for liking the book are perfectly valid, that the book is not bad at all, and I'm left wondering if I've stepped into some other dimension.

Impossible. If you are reading Mockingbird there is only the two dimensions.

What I mean by expressing that the reasons people have for liking the book are perfectly valid, is that they absolutely are. People like stuff that other people don't like. Sometimes the variation between different peoples partialities is a gulf.

However, my reasons for disliking the book do not invalidate anyone else’s reasons for liking the book, just like anyone else’s reasons for liking the book do not invalidate the reasons that I dislike it. Everyone’s opinion is valid and no one’s opinion is more valid than any other.

I am completely right.

You are utterly right.

Ishlamb

663

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corra wrote:

I don't quite understand


I figured as much

corra wrote:

why a flawed character means the book is bad,

corra wrote:

if I'm frank.

No you are not Frank. You are corra.

corra wrote:

I don't understand at all!

clearly 

corra wrote:

I think great literature is filled with flawed characters and unfinished business and a lot of "this is simply not enough" undertones which force one to consider what might be enough. I don't think Atticus is at all a stock character. Maybe I'll change my mind on a reread. I think the flaws you cite (Dill) only complicate his character.

In my opinion a character flaw would be if he backhanded one of those damn kids in frustration of if he had an affair with Miss Maudie and used maybe if he used Calpurnia for sex during the night and maintained his segregationist beliefs during the day. What if Lee had have him do something that he lied about, or if he had a secret gun that he’d take out to the woods and shoot stuff with it. Maybe if he lost his cool and struck Bob Ewell after Bob spat in his face (a floored character). Maybe if he murdered Bob Ewell (instead of thinking that Jem actually did it! Idiot).

Sydney Carlton was gloriously flawed. Atticus Finch isn’t flawed in that sense, he is flawed because he is a bloody robot who sometimes fluffs his lines. Atticus Finch lacks character flaws, he is not enough of a character to have flaws, all he has is voids. Voids are not good flaws which enrich a character, the voids provide the vacuum that sticks the cardboard to his shape.

You love the book. That’s fine because you are allowed to; and all of the reasons that you like it (or anyone else likes it) are perfectly valid. I’m not being patronising or sarcastic, I genuinely feel that Mockingbird is a great novel, an all-time classic and millions of people love it too. It puts most of the titles I read and love into the shade.

That’s fine!

I’m not asking anyone else to dislike the novel because I do. I’m not trying to persuade you to dislike it, I’m trying to explain to the conversation why I dislike the book. I don’t care if I’m the only one in the world who dislikes it.

No issues!

Apart from;

Sentimental or sheeplike? 

I don't understand; ewe said that you look like a sheep?  :)

Memphis Trace wrote:
Dill Carver wrote:

hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia

paradox

Oxymoron'ish

665

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Memphis Trace wrote:

…I will confess to reading To Kill a Mockingbird a first time at a time in my life when I was turning over every Southern rock looking for a white civil rights hero. I believe that is why I was stunned 50 years later when I read Go Set a Watchman—to discover that Atticus was indeed a died-in-the-wool racist.

I was a teenage nightmare, full of misplaced romance, juvenile ideology, passion, rebellion, lust, anger, love and acne when I first read To Kill a Mockingbird. I was within a class full of multi-racial pupils and felt anger at the social situation portrayed within the novel. My English (British Isles) and European history was up to scratch but I had little insight or understanding in respect of the history of slavery and/or the Southern States of America at that time. I was very naive and without exposure to the situation, my personal discovery of the depth of the racial division between whites and blacks within Mockingbird was a new concept and it shocked me. There is no other word for it.

At the time my head was full of literary heroes and stories where heroes change the world. I think that we’d just finished Dickens ‘A Tale of Two Cities’ and to resolve the major conflict within the story, one man gives his life for another and I was swollen with pride at the courage of that. I too was expecting Atticus fight the injustice in a much more dramatic fashion; maybe to become a martyr for the cause.

But, it is just not that kind of book and I didn’t understand that. It is a social comment, an extended cameo of that time and place, the adult reminiscing the child’s-eye view.

Atticus is not a bad man, he is kind and makes a real effort to treat the black folk fairly and with respect. It’s a big thing within the context of that book, but it was lost on me because I was sat next to a colored kid who was to all intents and proposes, was my brother.

Atticus doesn’t buck the system, let alone destroy it. He merely does his job and in an efficient manner and is polite and fair in the process. He is a white lawyer defending a wrongly accused black man and that alone makes him a hero? In that world maybe it does but if you took the skin color out of the story they’d be little or no story and that’s exactly how I saw it.  A white lawyer providing a fair legal defence to a black man was no sensation in my world; the clash of the races held no connotation to me and it is that clash that is the sensational aspect of the tale.

Atticus is condescending toward women. He clearly feels that a male is the superior being of the species.  Okay maybe not in the cooking, cleaning and raising the kids department where the female is adapt, but he certainly doesn’t consider they have the intellectual capacity to do a mans job. Nobody in the novel seems to care about that or pull him up for it and so I suppose that it is the norm in his world.

I have to explain here that I was raised in an Island that has a long and ancient linage of female leaders (Queens); Boudicea through Queen Bess to the current Queen Elizabeth II. So I was raised with a Queen as our leader, the Prime Minister was female (Thatcher) and my mother ran the household and at school my most respected teachers were women and the head mistress (principle) was also female.  My older sister was/is a tyrant with IQ of 125 and the boss of everything she’s ever in involved with.

The concept of a female being in some way inferior to a male was somehow unthinkable. I grew to understand that in terms universally held thinking upon the matter, I was in a minority.

Anyway, save to say that the problems I perceive within ‘To Kill a Mockingbird’ are within me. The novel isn’t bad, I merely don’t understand it. I couldn’t relate when I first read it and that has prejudiced me for life.

Memphis Trace wrote:

. As always, I really appreciate the energy you bring with your POV.

I too appreciate the time, effort and tolerance that the members on this site extend to me. I am strong minded and vociferous but my opinions and ideas are personal and I don’t want to impose those opinions onto anyone. I can be annoying, I realise that, but I’m merely trying to articulate why I feel the way I do. Sometimes I struggle and sometimes it is a real surprise to me when I analyse my feelings and understand the reasons, because often the cause or drivers are subconscious, subliminal or instinctive rationale. I’ve spent most of my life being wrong about most things and try to be as open-minded as my egocentric character will allow. Anyway Memphis, I always value your thoughts and feelings, especially if they challenge mine. You have the real experience and wisdom gathered from it. You are of a noble persuasion, it is evident within your words within forums and the literature you produce. We are so lucky to have you here.

Cheers, Dill

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njc wrote:
Dill Carver wrote:
njc wrote:

Think out loud.  The questions represent positions that people have actually taken, and they are forced on us as a society whether we like them or not.  Chew the questions, not the polemicist who forces them on you.  Find an answer that cover them all and that you believe can and should be defended.   If we can't answer them to everyone's satisfaction, the other guy wins--and you might not like what he is going to domwith that win.

The answer I threw out  has rough-edges.  It needs refinement before I can defend it in its whole.

The point is that any that definition you eventually arrive at will never be correct. It might stack up for you as an individual, but it will not unilaterally satisfy mankind as the definitive explanation ...

True of all philosophy.  So ... we should stop asking?

Yes, definitely. Confucius did and we should follow her example.

A scene that sings and the beauty of the repetition (anaphora) within Sydney Carton's last speech.


'It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known.'

Because by this point in the story my heart is simultaneously bursting with pride and breaking with sadness.

668

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

Think out loud.  The questions represent positions that people have actually taken, and they are forced on us as a society whether we like them or not.  Chew the questions, not the polemicist who forces them on you.  Find an answer that cover them all and that you believe can and should be defended.   If we can't answer them to everyone's satisfaction, the other guy wins--and you might not like what he is going to domwith that win.

The answer I threw out  has rough-edges.  It needs refinement before I can defend it in its whole.

The point is that any that definition you eventually arrive at will never be correct. It might stack up for you as an individual, but it will not unilaterally satisfy mankind as the definitive explanation,  of which explicit processes of thought, or action either explains or can be explained by that word.  The definition and application of racism constitutes different things to different people, different organizations, different cultures, different legal systems etc. etc.

Racism is a variable concept. In it's purest form, it is thinking that your own race is superior to another race. I think most people in the world (if honest with themselves) are guilty of that. I know I am from time to time, but feel it is part of the human condition and instinctive. It is complex and yet simple, a part of our tribal survival disposition, a part of our nature as a species. I think of this as passive racism.

Active racism, I believe, is where a person directs prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior.

There is a gulf between these two definitions and 'racism' is often confused (at least here in Europe) with nationalism and the conflict between religious divides.

I hate the French, I'm English and supposed to. Our countries have been at war for most of recorded history. The Germans too, after World War one and Two. This is a concept, for whilst living in Berlin amongst my German friends a pretty girl turned my head and I married her. She is French (the only one who cannot cook) and is hanging around our house to this day. I am nationalistic but without being xenophobic.

Back to the story that we are discussing. Do I think Atticus is an active racist? No, certainly not.

Do I consider Atticus a racist because he feels himself of a superior race? Absolutely. Take Calpurnia his African American housekeeper. Barely one generation away from being a slave. Atticus trusts Calpurnia implicitly, he is extremely fond of her and kind to her. Is he considerate? No. Does he treat her as his equal? Could Atticus envisage a colored female being capable of doing his job? Not on your nelly!  Why? Because of her race and her gender. 

Why does this matter? Well, I expect a man of that era in that situation to behave as such. Atticus never directs prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism towards the colored folk. In that he is enlightened; he is a kind man who cares about justice and fairness.

However, he performs his role within and around the status quo. He is passive and kind and working with the world the way it is. He is a nice racist and people either love or despise him for that.

I read the book as an angry young rebel and to me Attitus was a stooge, every rebel's nightmare; the conformist. The gentle fair-minded man who tells you everything is fine, when it is not. He is papering nice, attractive wallpaper over the cracked wall, over the mold of decay.

I wanted my Atticus to rage against the system. I wanted a Spartacus or a Sydney Carton; I wanted the kind of Atticus who knew that given the right circumstances that of course Calpurnia could do his his job. I wanted the kind of Atticus that'd put his neck on the line for Tom, the kind of Atticus who take the drop for Tom and get gunned down in his place.

To me 'To Kill a Mocking Bird' is a story about the way it was and fair-minded nice man working within the conventions of that system. I wanted a story about enlightened and courageous people challenging the system; ripping the system a new arsehole. I wanted the radical... the sacrifice in battle of the lion Atticus for the cause, not the cop-out sacrifice of the tethered goat, Tom.   
 
It is not to be, hence the disappointment within my subjective view upon the Novel.

I'll talk about the Atticus character all day long, but what I don't want is a heated exchange about racism per say. I'm not an active racist, I can see past skin tone and hair type. The battle we all face is good against evil. Within that conflict I'd have liked to see good (Atticus) fully engage and take on evil rather than work around it.

hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia

670

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A Racist is;

njc wrote:

Someone who drags race into a matter where it dooes not belong.....

That’d be….

njc wrote:

Is a doctor a racist for conditioning a possible diagnosis of sickle-cell anemia on black

njc wrote:

Is a company racist for making hair-care products particularly suited--or not suited--for the hair of people with black African ancestry?

njc wrote:

Is a doctor racist for conditioning a possible diagnosis of Tay-Sach's disease on Ashkenazi (or Cajun, or French-Canadian) ancestry?

njc wrote:

Is it racist to note that blacks in the USA are more likely to be murder victims than whites?  Is it racist to note that blacks in the USA are more likely to be murderers?  (Both can be explained by noting that this is principally an inner city issue--and that leads to more questions.)

….then?

pogonophobia

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njc wrote:

Is a doctor a racist for conditioning a possible diagnosis of sickle-cell anemia on black African ancestry?

Absolutely ridiculous question. What if the doctor is his/her self of “black African ancestry”? Or is that not a scenario you’d consider?

No one is a racist for conditioning a possible diagnosis of sickle-cell anemia on a person of another race.

A racist is an individual who holds a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior.

You could possibly have a racist doctor or a racist patient, but racism is an individual’s belief, not an occupational mandate. 

njc wrote:

Is a company racist for making hair-care products particularly suited--or not suited--for the hair of people with black African ancestry?

Only if the product is designed to make the “people with black African ancestry”s head explode or their hair turn ginger.

Absolutely ridiculous question.

A racist is an individual who holds a belief……..

njc wrote:

Is a doctor racist for conditioning a possible diagnosis of Tay-Sach's disease on Ashkenazi (or Cajun, or French-Canadian) ancestry?

No, because the doctor you talk of has a Cajun mother and French-Canadian father. But hold on, she hates fat Italian men with Groucho Marx moustaches, so yes, she’d be racist with rising pogonophobia.

Absolutely ridiculous question.

njc wrote:

Is it racist to note that blacks in the USA are more likely to be murder victims than whites?  Is it racist to note that blacks in the USA are more likely to be murderers?  (Both can be explained by noting that this is principally an inner city issue--and that leads to more questions.)

WTF?

A racist is an individual who holds a belief……..


njc wrote:

The answers depend on your definition of 'racist'.  And that single definition should give satisfactory answers, and have satisfactory moral implications, for ALL the questions above--or it is no definition at all, but a label of convenience for whatever you care to impute in a given situation.

I feel like I’m an idiot to answer this post, but hey-ho….

The definitions of ‘racist’ that I cited are not my definitions. I went to the ‘google.co.uk’ search bar and entered the search string “racist definition.”  From the first five search results I selected three different definitions of the word ‘racist’ and pasted them here to prove the point that;
Atticus is definitely a racist.

Atticus is definitely not a racist.

Apparently the interpretation of the condition that is said to be defined by the word ‘racist’ not only differs between people, it differs between on-line dictionaries. This obviously leads to differing concepts upon the actual meaning of the word racist (as you so spectacularly demonstrate).

I don’t know why I fear I’m going to regret asking this question, but would you care to share your personally held definition of the word racist? I assume it will be definitive and can resolve your questions above?

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corra wrote:

...I wonder if we've been more on the same page than I thought in this conversation? I can't tell if you're arguing that Mockingbird is all bad, or that people are ridiculous because they don't see what is clearly there and ought to be interpreted more deeply? If the latter, I hardily agree and stand "guity" (ha!) as charged. If the former, I'm not sure I agree, but I remain a work in progress. smile

....that people are ridiculous because they don't see what is clearly there and ought to be interpreted more deeply....

The story, the writing, the characters all appear quite shallow and the book attracts sentimental skim-readers who'll all as glibly swoon over the next big media thing; whilst the subject of Mockingbird is actually very deep and very nasty; the connotations are deep. But Mockingbird is like Disney does the holocaust with the cast of the little house on the prairie and some black people. It is airbrushed, almost like the book is scared to get down and dirty with the real crux of it. Scout is the vibrant young inquiring mind but Atticus is the stooge, the sound-byte sounding board, the cardboard cut-out and the role may as well have been written as a six-foot cartoon daddy rabbit.

I know the unwritten law that you should never, ever criticize the Koran, the Bible or To Kill a Mockingbird because all are sacred and beyond criticism. But I'm a freak, I must be because none of those books sit easy with me and I cannot simply make them fit like others seem to.

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corra wrote:

... I had completely missed that remark by Atticus about women and juries!! Sincerely, you do make me think! Well pointed out!

Mockingbird is written by a woman, and she the author created Atticus and put these thoughts into his head and these words into his mouth for you to read and contemplate. Maybe she is exposing the inherent/intrinsic sexism of that time and place, but she is using Atticus to launder the inferior Woman ethic.

It's a real shame, because I'd want my Atticus to tear a strip off anyone who dared suggest that a woman would not make as an efficient juror as a man on account of the shortcomings of her gender in terms of intellect. Instead of dispelling such bunkum to the inquiring Scout, he instills the edict into his young daughters mind as if it is a biological fact regarding the human species.

Stuff like this upon race and gender throughout the book is what upsets me. I want Atticus to be the true crusader he is supposed to be rather than the likable passive racist, passive sexist; avid follower of a screwed-up societies accepted misconceived beliefs, that he is.

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Memphis Trace wrote:

For the record, my opinion of Atticus—on reading To Kill a Mockingbird a second time after having lived through years of Southern violence against blacks—was not that he was racist in the story...

I have absolutely no doubt that Atticus is a racist. He expresses that fact over and again.

I very much think the issue concerning our conflicting opinions may be caused by the definition of the word 'Racist'.

Who knew? If you Google the following words; Racist definition ...then several definitive variations are found and some published definitions vary immensely.

Definition 1: a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.

Definition 2 : holding a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

Definition 3:   a person who directs prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior:

So Atticus is definitely a racist according to definition one; he may be or maybe not be racist according to definition two, but is definitely not a racist according to definition three.

I've always assumed (based my judgment upon) definition 1: And Atticus certainly believes there are differentials in terms of superiority between the races. He feels these differences because they appear to be self-evident within his society. To me he acts like a Veterinarian who cares very deeply for the animals that he treats but at the same time doesn't consider the dog he is treating to be on the same intellectual level as he, the Vet.

Atticus doesn't consider the colored-folk to be his equal; hell, he doesn't even consider white women to be equal to the intellect of white men.

Atticus is clearly an elitist and clearly a racist if judged by definition 1:   

However, although he is quietly confident of his racial superiority, Atticus never directs prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism against those of a different race. In fact the is opposed to those actions, and as such is clearly not a racist according to definition 3:

So there you have it;

Atticus is definitely a racist.

Atticus is definitely not a racist.

You can alter your POV to make either of these 'facts' true.

Cheers!