101

(55 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:

So, my choice of words is insulting and condescending

Yes. Exactly.



vern wrote:

and you "telling" other authors they cannot use certain words (your stated practice, not mine) is not insulting or condescending.

I didn't say I told anyone not to use a certain word. I said that we as reviews need to avoid given general advice to other writers without taking that writer's specific work under consideration. I gave three examples of this.

Here:

Rebecca Vaughn wrote:

However, we have to be careful about cutting words that are actually needed. Certain words change the meaning of a sentence, so if you take them out, you can confuse the readers and given an incorrect picture of the events. If a character says to another, "Sit." it is rude, as if he(she) is treating another person like a dog. We do not talk to other people that way. Even if it is prefaced with "Please". "Please sit," is still incorrect. The character speaking would be immediately categorized as a bully (for "sit") or a social ignoramus (for "please sit"). Probably not what we were after. We say "Sit down," to people, even if it is an order, and thus so should our characters.

Here:

Rebecca Vaughn wrote:

Also, one man's cures is another's blessing. He says to take out "then" and replace with "and", yet I have read a lot of novels that are filled to over capacity with "and"s. It would be a disservice to those writers to be advised to remove one of their few "then"s in place of an over used "and".

We have to be very careful about giving advice. sad


And here:

Rebecca Vaughn wrote:

I have had to tell authors to insert "that" in certain places in sentences in the narration because the meaning was obscured by lack of the "extra" word. In many of these cases the author had originally included the missing "that" but then removed it on advice of another person who was hell bent on cutting "that"s.

A review by definition must involve telling, but what you wrote was not review. It was mockery.


And when you said:

You can't "laugh" conversation.

This does nothing but put an extreme constraint on the human voice.

Had you said:

“laughed” doesn't work as a dialogue tag. Also editors tend to hate it. Take out and replace with something else.

That would be a review. And a very helpful one.


Or had you said:

Your word order is awkward. Rewrite the sentence for better flow.

That would also be a review. A very helpful one.

You would have told me something useful, helpful, with the improvement of my work in mind.

Instead, you call my dialogue “drunk barb”, and when I am offended, further the insult by calling it a “tipsy Shakespeare” and finding it “more amusing than insulting”.

The person mocking is generally amused, while the person being mocked is generally insulted.


vern wrote:

Alas it's rather futile to discuss such things with someone so easily offended.

Interesting how people who are making fun of others are often quick to label those they insult as being “easily offended”. My supposed sensitivity does not justify or excuse your rude words.


vern wrote:

Verbs to never use as tags:

husked, hissed, breathed, interrupted, gasped, hoped, smiled, chortled, chuckled, laughed, cajoled, moaned, grunted, groaned, sighed

These verbs can be used around the dialogue, if they’re appropriate. Just don’t use them as dialogue tags.***

Not my words, but from an editor's blog.

I have seen many of these lists by editors and critics, all of them slightly different, and most containing “laughed”.

102

(55 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

corra wrote:
vern wrote:

So, my choice of words is insulting and condescending and you "telling" other authors they cannot use certain words (your stated practice, not mine) is not insulting or condescending.

Vern, have you gone down the rabbit hole? lol She didn't say anything above about telling other people to remove words from their writing. She said that she is leery of advising people to auto-delete words from their manuscripts, as this often changes the intended meaning. I can't say I disagree with her.


Thanks, Corra!

103

(55 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:
Rebecca Vaughn wrote:
vern wrote:

Perhaps no meaning is lost, but unless your writing is set in some other time and place where everyone talks like a drunk barb, what you have substituted is not all natural speech and it will surely sound out of place to the reader; at least to this one. There are no concrete rules for writing and if you impose such on yourself, well, then you're going to have pretty stiff dialogue imho. Take care. Vern .

Wow. My writing has been called a lot of things, but "drunk barb" must be at the top of the list. I suggest when insulting someone, you avoid closing with "Take care." It may be fine other places, but here, it comes off as condescending.

Well, to start with, I didn't realize it was an insult to point out that there just might not be concrete rules anymore than I assume you didn't think it an insult to "tell" other authors not to use "that" or any other word. You didn't mean it as an insult, right?


No, I didn't say that was an insult.

I said calling my dialogue “drunk barb” was insulting.


vern wrote:
Rebecca Vaughn wrote:
vern wrote:

Perhaps no meaning is lost, but unless your writing is set in some other time and place where everyone talks like a drunk barb, what you have substituted is not all natural speech and it will surely sound out of place to the reader; at least to this one. There are no concrete rules for writing and if you impose such on yourself, well, then you're going to have pretty stiff dialogue imho. Take care. Vern .

Wow. My writing has been called a lot of things, but "drunk barb" must be at the top of the list. I suggest when insulting someone, you avoid closing with "Take care." It may be fine other places, but here, it comes off as condescending.

Not sure exactly why a presumed insult would be "fine" somewhere else and not here on this site where one comes ostensibly to at least hear if not adhere to different opinions. Do you think you "telling" other authors not to do something is also condescending? Just curious.

I didn't say that an insult was fine. I said that saying “Take care” may be fine other times, but that here (after the insulting “drunk barb”) saying “Take care” comes off as condescending.



vern wrote:
Rebecca Vaughn wrote:
vern wrote:

Edited for PS: Just one other teensy tidbit: You can't "laugh" conversation. You can laugh at it or with it, and you can even try to laugh at the same time, but you can't (cannot if you prefer) laugh the dialogue itself.

People laugh conversations all the time. Writers often say you can't laugh a word, but I have listened to people laugh entire conversations.



Second, you might want to get those folks laughing entire conversations on tape because I'm pretty sure it would turn lots of heads and educate quite a few.

I don't think it would change anything. People decide what they like or dislike. I hate “quipped”. It looks and sounds terrible. I much prefer “joked” (or anything) over “quipped." Yet there are many writers who use “quipped” all the time.
One person will use "laughed” and another will insist it has to be “said with a laugh” which actually has a different meaning.



vern wrote:
Rebecca Vaughn wrote:
vern wrote:

Of course that is not set in concrete as a rule either since you can write anything you wish and keep those commas instead of periods, technically correct or not. Just a thought.

I use the standard way of setting dialogue tags because I think the new way is choppy and stops the flow.

And you might check out the "standard" use of a dialogue tag with such words as "laugh." You might be surprised how not so standard it could be.

I understood you to mean that the sentence

"Oh, do not think like that," she laughed.

Should be

"Oh, do not think like that." She laughed.

That is what I meant by I prefer the standard dialogue tag (the comma) to the new dialogue tag (the period). Nothing to do with the “laughed.”



vern wrote:

As far as "drunk barb" goes, it just so happens "Be not shy here" sounds like a tipsy Shakespeare to me (maybe I'm alone here, dunno) which I find a whole lot more amusing than insulting, but to each their own.

As you say, To each his own.

You find it funny.

I am offended.

104

(55 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:

Perhaps no meaning is lost, but unless your writing is set in some other time and place where everyone talks like a drunk barb, what you have substituted is not all natural speech and it will surely sound out of place to the reader; at least to this one. There are no concrete rules for writing and if you impose such on yourself, well, then you're going to have pretty stiff dialogue imho. Take care. Vern .

Wow. My writing has been called a lot of things, but "drunk barb" must be at the top of the list. I suggest when insulting someone, you avoid closing with "Take care." It may be fine other places, but here, it comes off as condescending.

vern wrote:

Edited for PS: Just one other teensy tidbit: You can't "laugh" conversation. You can laugh at it or with it, and you can even try to laugh at the same time, but you can't (cannot if you prefer) laugh the dialogue itself. Of course that is not set in concrete as a rule either since you can write anything you wish and keep those commas instead of periods, technically correct or not. Just a thought.

People laugh conversations all the time. Writers often say you can't laugh a word, but I have listened to people laugh entire conversations.

I use the standard way of setting dialogue tags because I think the new way is choppy and stops the flow.

105

(55 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

I had a lot of sentences like

"Come now, Prince! Out with it!"

"Come, come," she laughed. "Do not think like that."

"Come on. You really cannot say that for sure."

These sentences read the same as

"Be not shy here, Prince! Out with it!"

"Oh, do not think like that," she laughed.

"But you cannot say that for sure."

I killed four "come"s and no meaning was sacrificed. smile

106

(55 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

My point was not to include or exclude dialogue. It was to show the importance of seemingly worthless words.

I have had to tell authors to insert "that" in certain places in sentences in the narration because the meaning was obscured  by lack of the "extra" word. In many of these cases the author had originally included the missing "that" but then removed it on advice of another person who was hell bent on cutting "that"s.

I'm not trying to make an exception of dialogue, but to show the need for us  think about what we deem expendable.

107

(55 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

I totally agree with you, JP!

If you get so bogged down with trying to avoid certain words, you never get your novel started!

But we all have lists of words we over use and should keep an eye out for them while editing. My personal bane is "come". I will use it everywhere, especially dialogue. When first editing the Beast of Caer Baddan a couple of years ago, I deleted over a hundred extraneous "come"s! And that was after I had take a whole bunch out already!

However, we have to be careful about cutting words that are actually needed. Certain words change the meaning of a sentence, so if you take them out, you can confuse the readers and given an incorrect picture of the events. If a character says to another, "Sit." it is rude, as if he(she) is treating another person like a dog. We do not talk to other people that way. Even if it is prefaced with "Please". "Please sit," is still incorrect. The character speaking would be immediately categorized as a bully (for "sit") or a social ignoramus (for "please sit"). Probably not what we were after. We say "Sit down," to people, even if it is an order, and thus so should our characters.

Also, one man's cures is another's blessing. He says to take out "then" and replace with "and", yet I have read a lot of novels that are filled to over capacity with "and"s. It would be a disservice to those writers to be advised to remove one of their few "then"s in place of an over used "and".

We have to be very careful about giving advice. sad

K

I think I must be confusing! sad

I meant that the narration does not refer to Enhinti as "princess". Other characters call her "Princess" and (I think) somewhere in Drech's POV in some book she is called "his princess". I did this to match Drech who is only referred to as " the Pendragon" by the narration when it is not his POV. (Like when it is Camuir's or Enhinti's POV instead).

Am I making any sense? (I feel like I'm rambling!)

109

(9 replies, posted in Fantasy/Magic & Sci-Fi)

Happy Birthday!

110

(7 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Remaining a character is often harder then naming him in the first place!

Here are my thoughts, please take them with a grain of salt. smile

Ferand
I'm just not seeing Ferand as a hero much less the one you described. I'm seeing him as that really snooty extra guy that is engaged to the heroine but we all know she can't be with him because he is so annoying.

Ioan
I can totally see your hero as Ioan  I like the spelling "Ion" better but either way works with his character.


Ronan
This is the name of the terrorist in Guardians of the Galaxy. While I would no rule out a name for a hero just because someone else used it for their villain, I would caution that this is still a very unusual name and thus a lot of people will have associated it with the only Ronan they know. The blue guy who wears a hood and wants to destroy planets. (Teens will more likely associate the name with Taylor Swifts song).

Adhemar
I think you should for another novel where the hero has a different personality.

Good luck!

Thanks NJC!

I appreciate the sensitivity to style! smile

Onnen was one of (Queen) Nyfain's servant women. She was/is a slave (as most of the servants are). (King) Camuir got her pregnant. And she had a son.

I think I'll just take her name out of this scene and let it focus on Elen and Camuir. Ill have to see though.

This book is going to look nothing like it originally did! Haha! Every once in a while, I find some old note or outline of a scene and think "This is all wrong! It doesn't go that way at all!" Hahaha!

amy s wrote:

Consider Sire for child address to the father and Mare to the mother (for Chiftains)? What do you think?

An interesting idea! Never thought about Sire or Mare before.

I'm concerned that "Sire" and "Mare", both having an Old French origin that never left them (When I look at them, I think "French"), will take away from the Ancient Island Celtic feel I'm (trying) to create. Same reason I never put "Count", and "Marquis" on the list as possible titles. If I can't get over the French-ness (No offense to anyone who is actually French...) I'm not sure I can convince readers to.

I do wonder why a man would address his father as "Sire". Seems odd in a pre-Renaissance-protocal British Isles.

I'll have to think about it.

KHippolite wrote:

After thinking on this, my original thoughts seem valid. Onnen is a distraction in an otherwise powerful scene. Mentioning her a little or a lot or even at all is not going to service Elen or Camuir (it will, however, service Onnen who at this point is unimportant)


Maybe I can take her out then, if she really does a disservice to the scene. Maybe I am trying to do too many things: Camuir justifying himself, Elen having a self realization, and setting up for (one of) Enhinti's confrontations with the sisters' mother, Nyfain. Fact is that neither Onnen nor her son actually make an appearance in this book.

Thanks, Amy!

I see what you mean about trimming. I do tend to get wordy. Though I don't think I want to take out Camuir's "You do not know what it is to lose a child." Because it shows why Camuir just tried to murder Drech. I'll think about it!

I'm thrilled you like that last line! smile

Ok! I'll take a look at it! I tend to be too melodramatic! So maybe that is influencing where I cut the chapters!

njc wrote:

Pity Camuir will be denied the chance to redeem himself in mortal combat with the real villian.  By this time there are plenty who would be happy to settle for a tenth of him so long as they were assured the other nine-tenths were half as well taken care of.

Don't worry about Camuir! He does get redeemed. It just takes him a while. smile

And Elen with a spear... That is a scary thought!

njc wrote:

I think there has to be some sense, some hint, that Elen's mother has a role in this.  You don't have to say what.  It might also help to give the mother's name, so that she's a real character in the reader's mind and the reader is primed to hear from her.

I'll go with the last then! smile

I'm not sure where to put the mother's name. Seems weird for Camuir to call his wife "Nyfain" to their daughter. I'll have to think about that...

This is the part in question:

“Why then did you not protect me?” the queen continued. “Onnen took me by the head and held me in the fountain. She nearly drowned me. She tried desperately to kill me. If it weren't for Enhinti's screams, no one would have know to come and save me.”
“You cannot blame Onnen–”
“Who shall I blame then, Da?” she whispered choking on her own words. “I was seven years old. My mam had just abandoned me. I needed my da. I needed you. But you did nothing. You let her stay in the castle as if she had done nothing wrong. You knew that she had tried to murder me and yet you allowed her to remain, seeing both I and my small sister every day.”
Camuir shook his head, sadly. “Onnen was not herself.”
“But you were, Da,” the queen mused. “You were yourself. The same as you have always been. Careless. An inept king, a feckless husband, and an incompetent father.”


Here is with more detail:

“Why then did you not protect me?” the queen continued. “Onnen took me by the head and held me in the fountain. She nearly drowned me. She tried desperately to kill me. If it weren't for Enhinti's screams, no one would have know to come and save me.”
“You cannot blame Onnen–”
“Who shall I blame then, Da?” she whispered choking on her own words. “I was seven years old. My mam had just abandoned me. I needed my da. I needed you. But you did nothing. You let her stay in the castle as if she had done nothing wrong. You knew that she had tried to murder me and yet you allowed her to remain, seeing both I and my small sister every day.”
Camuir shook his head, sadly. “You must be more understanding toward Onnen, Elen. Her baby was stolen from her. You do not know what it is to lose a child. Onnen could not think aright. She was grieving and not herself.”
“But you were, Da,” the queen mused. “You were yourself. The same as you have always been. Careless. An inept king, a feckless husband, and an incompetent father.”


Here is with more:

“Why then did you not protect me?” the queen continued. “Onnen took me by the head and held me in the fountain. She nearly drowned me. She tried desperately to kill me. If it weren't for Enhinti's screams, no one would have know to come and save me.”
“You cannot blame Onnen–”
“Who shall I blame then, Da?” she whispered choking on her own words. “I was seven years old. My mam had just abandoned me. I needed my da. I needed you. But you did nothing. You let her stay in the castle as if she had done nothing wrong. You knew that she had tried to murder me and yet you allowed her to remain, seeing both I and my small sister every day.”
Camuir shook his head, sadly. “You must be more understanding toward Onnen, Elen. Your mother stole the baby from her. You do not know what it is to lose a child. Onnen could not think aright. She was grieving and not herself.”
“But you were, Da,” the queen mused. “You were yourself. The same as you have always been. Careless. An inept king, a feckless husband, and an incompetent father.”


Better?

KHippolite wrote:

I was saving the rest of the details of the Onnen

In this case, perhaps you can sneak through this chapter without mentioning her. You probably have two groups of readers (a) those who didn't remember her and were more interested in the current scene of Camuir + Elen and (b) those who did remember her and got totally side-tracked by this mention.


Oh, I didn't think of the mention as being a distraction! Haha! Hmmmmm...

Close to the end of Book 3, Elen tells Camuir that she refused to bring Onnen with her because of Onnen's crime. Now in Book 4, I meant to reveal that crime as attempted murder, with Camuir shouldering the blame for Onnen and at the same time justifying his own actions as a parent. Elen then "accepts" Camuir as to blame and uses that to condemn his decisions as a parent. With Enhinti and Mother Nyfain, my purpose was going to be to show how Enhinti sees Onnen's actions (trying to kill Elen) as a reaction to Nyfain's crime against Onnen. Nyfain tries to justify her actions to Enhinti, but because Enhinti blames Nyfain for Onnen trying to murder Elen, she refuses to listen to Nyfain's side of the story.

If I take out this mention of Onnen (in Camuir's and Elen's conversation), will the next mention (in Enhinti's and Nyfain's argument) make sense? I guess I will have to see when I get there...

KHippolite wrote:

I see you've given Marcia dementia so she can't inadvertently spill the beans on Enhinti's parentage. Nice trick. You have done well, padawyn

smile

I had to have a reason for Queen Marcia to be out of the political sphere while Queen Gratianna was so involved. Also I needed to control information to Drech and to Enhinti, and give a reason why Marcia couldn't give consent to their marriage. Giving her dementia fixed all problems.

KHippolite wrote:

It is supposed to be Luitcoyt which is the Capital of Pengwern

I have Luitcoyt recorded as L.-city-of and L.-Circle-of but no mention of a caer-of in there. Recomend dropping here and using circle-of since that will resonate with readers struggling to remember it

"Caer" is "City" so where ever it says "City of Luitcoyt" I need to change to "Caer Luitcoyt"! Yikes! That's thirty word doct. I have to search through! sad

"Circle" is like a senate or board meeting. All the lords of a kingdom get together and vote on something or pass judgment on someone. The Circle of Pengwern meets in Luitcoyt because Luitcoyt is the Capital of Pengwern. There should be no "Circle of Luitcoyt". Which means I have another thing to go searching for! I suspect the problem is in the first half of book 2...

janet reid wrote:

Rebecca, I think readers will be able to go with the flow so to speak. When I'm reading for enjoyment, it's MUCH less of an issue. I had no issues with lord, chieftain, king until it was mentioned in the forums.

As to a character list and map - I like those. It's much better than remembering page numbers to go back to when I'm reading a book and want to find out who's who again. As a reader, I don't mind though - as long as the story has me hooked, I'm willing to overlook plenty! And even with a character list you still need to page back to look at it, so it's much of the same. So IMO, that's all up to you!


Thanks! I'll put in a character list and map!

KHippolite wrote:

Also, I have "Prince Cattergirn" recorded as "Cattegirn". I'll assume it's an error on my part, but you may want to word-search it on prior stories just to be sure


Agh! Noooooooo!

I'll look up the spelling. He is a historical character so I don't want to play around with his name. sad


It is "Cattegern". Sorry for all the miss spellings! :_(

KHippolite wrote:
Queen Muiredach  wrote:

His army beat that of Prince Galam, a mighty general of much renown

Did Galam die as a result of this encounter? I don't want to record his name if I don't have to because Muirdach already forms a complex node

Galam lives. And Drech will run into him...

I see what you mean about practicality! I'll take "long" out." I don't want anyone thinking "pike" or something! Yikes! Haha!