Excerpted from Writers Digest:
***First, dialogue cannot be smiled, laughed, giggled, or sighed. Therefore, this example is incorrect:
“Don’t tickle me!” she giggled.
You can’t giggle spoken words. You can’t laugh them or sigh them or smile them, either. (I dare you to try it. If it works for you, write me and let me know. We could be on to something.) ***
Sounds like something I might say; oh, I did. lol. Take care. Vern
, but one CAN laugh words. .
Hopefully, you're not offended, but I respectfully disagree. You can laugh at something or laugh during a conversation, but you can't laugh the words and the words of the speaker is what dialogue tags are for. Just making a sound does not make it a dialogue tag. If you or anyone can point me in the direction of any sound track where anyone can actually laugh the words, then I will gladly change my opinion. Pick any stream of words within this post or any other and try to laugh them; laugh them, not laugh during them or before them or after them or at them; simply laugh the words audibly and let me know how it works out. Put it on utube and it'll probably go viral. I'd even put up with a commercial to hear it. I would say you'd probably sound like a drunk laughing hyena, but don't want to push my luck, lol. Take care. Vern
vern wrote:I'm not and have never said one is correct and the other is wrong, only the assumption that one can "tell" another author what to do and then become offended that someone disagrees with her. Rabbit hole? I don't know; you tell me. I certainly respect and most times follow your advice.
I'm not offended that you disagree with me.
I am offended that you mocked my writing.
You state earlier that my remarks weren't a review, they were mockery. And you also state that a review must involve "telling." I'm afraid I must disagree on all counts. My opening remarks on the subject stated that the opinions offered were from my perspective as a reader; only speaking for myself. My subsequent remarks clearly stated I did not perceive my remarks as an insult or mockery as you obviously do. Your choice of words sounded like a drunk barb to me as my opinion. My choice of words is offensive merely because I offered them as a different opinion on your choice of words to substitute for others which sounded more natural than what you replaced them with. In essence I was reviewing that portion of your story which was presented presumably for critique. I offered my opinion of it just as I would for any of my reviews. They are not always glowing; far from it and I dare say could if an author were so inclined be deemed harsher than what has so offended you, but no one has called them insulting yet. Sounds a whole lot like you're offended by my disagreement despite your denial. You see that works both ways; you don’t believe my explanation, I don’t believe yours.
I expect you’re also offended by my different opinion on dialogue tags as you insist you prefer the “standard” use. Yet, when I offer an example of an editor who disagrees with your usage, you simply say you have seen many such lists. Somehow, that simply doesn’t equate to there being a “standard” you go by - not your rules so doesn’t apply just as “telling” an author what to do isn’t condescending, but my use of “Take care” is evidently.
We’ve probably bashed this around in circles long enough, so I’ll just accept that we disagree and will try not to offend you should we happen to meet on another subject thread. You’re welcome to the last word should you desire. Take care. Vern
vern wrote:So, my choice of words is insulting and condescending and you "telling" other authors they cannot use certain words (your stated practice, not mine) is not insulting or condescending.
Vern, have you gone down the rabbit hole?
She didn't say anything above about telling other people to remove words from their writing. She said that she is leery of advising people to auto-delete words from their manuscripts, as this often changes the intended meaning. I can't say I disagree with her.
Perhaps, but she clearly states in post 16 of this thread: "I have had to tell authors to insert "that" in certain places in sentences in the narration because the meaning was obscured by lack of the "extra" word. In many of these cases the author had originally included the missing "that" but then removed it on advice of another person who was hell bent on cutting "that"s."
So, while advising people to be leery of giving advice she is "telling" not suggesting that they following her advice instead of some one else "hell bent" on another approach. I'm not and have never said one is correct and the other is wrong, only the assumption that one can "tell" another author what to do and then become offended that someone disagrees with her. Rabbit hole? I don't know; you tell me. I certainly respect and most times follow your advice. Take care. Vern
vern wrote:Rebecca Vaughn wrote:Wow. My writing has been called a lot of things, but "drunk barb" must be at the top of the list. I suggest when insulting someone, you avoid closing with "Take care." It may be fine other places, but here, it comes off as condescending.
Well, to start with, I didn't realize it was an insult to point out that there just might not be concrete rules anymore than I assume you didn't think it an insult to "tell" other authors not to use "that" or any other word. You didn't mean it as an insult, right?
No, I didn't say that was an insult.
I said calling my dialogue “drunk barb” was insulting.
vern wrote:Rebecca Vaughn wrote:Wow. My writing has been called a lot of things, but "drunk barb" must be at the top of the list. I suggest when insulting someone, you avoid closing with "Take care." It may be fine other places, but here, it comes off as condescending.
Not sure exactly why a presumed insult would be "fine" somewhere else and not here on this site where one comes ostensibly to at least hear if not adhere to different opinions. Do you think you "telling" other authors not to do something is also condescending? Just curious.
I didn't say that an insult was fine. I said that saying “Take care” may be fine other times, but that here (after the insulting “drunk barb”) saying “Take care” comes off as condescending.
vern wrote:Rebecca Vaughn wrote:People laugh conversations all the time. Writers often say you can't laugh a word, but I have listened to people laugh entire conversations.
Second, you might want to get those folks laughing entire conversations on tape because I'm pretty sure it would turn lots of heads and educate quite a few.
I don't think it would change anything. People decide what they like or dislike. I hate “quipped”. It looks and sounds terrible. I much prefer “joked” (or anything) over “quipped." Yet there are many writers who use “quipped” all the time.
One person will use "laughed” and another will insist it has to be “said with a laugh” which actually has a different meaning.vern wrote:Rebecca Vaughn wrote:I use the standard way of setting dialogue tags because I think the new way is choppy and stops the flow.
And you might check out the "standard" use of a dialogue tag with such words as "laugh." You might be surprised how not so standard it could be.
I understood you to mean that the sentence
"Oh, do not think like that," she laughed.
Should be
"Oh, do not think like that." She laughed.
That is what I meant by I prefer the standard dialogue tag (the comma) to the new dialogue tag (the period). Nothing to do with the “laughed.”
vern wrote:As far as "drunk barb" goes, it just so happens "Be not shy here" sounds like a tipsy Shakespeare to me (maybe I'm alone here, dunno) which I find a whole lot more amusing than insulting, but to each their own.
As you say, To each his own.
You find it funny.
I am offended.
So, my choice of words is insulting and condescending and you "telling" other authors they cannot use certain words (your stated practice, not mine) is not insulting or condescending. Yes, I agree you are correct merely because those are the rules you go by. Oh, btw, the dialogue tag has everything to do with the "laugh" or similar words; and you can quip words, but you can't laugh them. Still, as stated, you can do however you wish even if you don't think other authors are capable of the same thing. Alas it's rather futile to discuss such things with someone so easily offended. Yep, to each their own. Take care -- uhh... no offense intended though I'm sure you will take it as such with my downright poor choice of words. Vern
Edited for PS:
***Verbs to never use as tags:
husked, hissed, breathed, interrupted, gasped, hoped, smiled, chortled, chuckled, laughed, cajoled, moaned, grunted, groaned, sighed
These verbs can be used around the dialogue, if they’re appropriate. Just don’t use them as dialogue tags.***
Not my words, but from an editor's blog. I'm sure you can find similar things to support your position on "laugh". Either way, it's not standard other than by your rules.
vern wrote:Perhaps no meaning is lost, but unless your writing is set in some other time and place where everyone talks like a drunk barb, what you have substituted is not all natural speech and it will surely sound out of place to the reader; at least to this one. There are no concrete rules for writing and if you impose such on yourself, well, then you're going to have pretty stiff dialogue imho. Take care. Vern .
Wow. My writing has been called a lot of things, but "drunk barb" must be at the top of the list. I suggest when insulting someone, you avoid closing with "Take care." It may be fine other places, but here, it comes off as condescending.
vern wrote:Edited for PS: Just one other teensy tidbit: You can't "laugh" conversation. You can laugh at it or with it, and you can even try to laugh at the same time, but you can't (cannot if you prefer) laugh the dialogue itself. Of course that is not set in concrete as a rule either since you can write anything you wish and keep those commas instead of periods, technically correct or not. Just a thought.
People laugh conversations all the time. Writers often say you can't laugh a word, but I have listened to people laugh entire conversations.
I use the standard way of setting dialogue tags because I think the new way is choppy and stops the flow.
Well, to start with, I didn't realize it was an insult to point out that there just might not be concrete rules anymore than I assume you didn't think it an insult to "tell" other authors not to use "that" or any other word. You didn't mean it as an insult, right? Not sure exactly why a presumed insult would be "fine" somewhere else and not here on this site where one comes ostensibly to at least hear if not adhere to different opinions. Do you think you "telling" other authors not to do something is also condescending? Just curious.
Second, you might want to get those folks laughing entire conversations on tape because I'm pretty sure it would turn lots of heads and educate quite a few. And you might check out the "standard" use of a dialogue tag with such words as "laugh." You might be surprised how not so standard it could be.
Third and maybe fourth, I use "Take care" to end practically every post because I don't consider any of them to be insulting and it is hopefully a gentle way to end a conversation even if opinions differ. I mean I can just stop abruptly in any future exchange if you prefer. As far as "drunk barb" goes, it just so happens "Be not shy here" sounds like a tipsy Shakespeare to me (maybe I'm alone here, dunno) which I find a whole lot more amusing than insulting, but to each their own.
Take care. Vern
I had a lot of sentences like
"Come now, Prince! Out with it!"
"Come, come," she laughed. "Do not think like that."
"Come on. You really cannot say that for sure."
These sentences read the same as
"Be not shy here, Prince! Out with it!"
"Oh, do not think like that," she laughed.
"But you cannot say that for sure."
I killed four "come"s and no meaning was sacrificed.
Perhaps no meaning is lost, but unless your writing is set in some other time and place where everyone talks like a drunk barb, what you have substituted is not all natural speech and it will surely sound out of place to the reader; at least to this one. There are no concrete rules for writing and if you impose such on yourself, well, then you're going to have pretty stiff dialogue imho. Take care. Vern
Edited for PS: Just one other teensy tidbit: You can't "laugh" conversation. You can laugh at it or with it, and you can even try to laugh at the same time, but you can't (cannot if you prefer) laugh the dialogue itself. Of course that is not set in concrete as a rule either since you can write anything you wish and keep those commas instead of periods, technically correct or not. Just a thought.
Charles_F_Bell wrote:vern wrote:Or: A woman without; her man is nothing.
Ordinarily the two parts of semicolon phrasing can stand alone, and the above fails. The first half ends in a preposition, has no verb, and does not make sense.
Unless she is outside of the building looking for her imaginary Teutonic boyfriend?
A woman without? Herman is no thing.
PTL, somebody gets the point -- and it wasn't her, lol. Take care. Vern
vern wrote:Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:Or: A woman without; her man is nothing.
Ordinarily the two parts of semicolon phrasing can stand alone, and the above fails. The first half ends in a preposition, has no verb, and does not make sense.
Really? I seldom deal with the ordinary. Take care. Vern
Or: A woman without; her man is nothing.
Take care. Vern
I want to thank the academy for this award, OMG, and my family for putting up with me, my editors for not being too pushy, my reviewers for knowing what they're talking about, my childhood friends who bought all those comics for me to read to them, my first grade teacher for not keeping me in the corner any longer than necessary, all those who paved the path before me, and most of all my fans who make it all worthwhile ...
Okay, seriously, THANK YOU to all. And congrats to all winners which includes all who participated. Take care. Vern
Charles_F_Bell wrote:"Round" itself has many meanings enough without adding another one.
True... and strange that I'd never thought of it before. Adverb and preposition. Is it the word with the most meanings?
According to The Guinness Book of Records:
The word with the most meanings in English is the verb 'set', with 430 senses listed in the Second Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary, published in 1989. The word commands the longest entry in the dictionary at 60,000 words, or 326,000 characters.
Take care. Vern
I've also got one those damn drafts that won't go away. After searching every avenue known to man for a way to destroy the stupid thing, I just ignored it. No, it still didn't go away, but I no longer acknowledge its existence; that's my pay back, lol. And hey, if you find out how to delete the culprit, let me know. Take care. Vern
It makes absolutely no sense to have the "private message" link in the profile and state that you can leave a quickie (which is public) or if you want to leave a private message you can use the private message system when in fact that link doesn't work if you're not connected. I mean, one might wish to tell another to get lost in private so as not to create a public uproar with sides chosen; doesn't make sense to have to "connect" with them first. Sounds like a job for Super Sol to correct such a system weakness. Take care. Vern
Hey Sol,
Is there a simple way to republish or do I need to make a new published version of the work?
Not Sol, but can answer should you wish a perhaps quicker response: If you just want to make some edits, then you can do so, but if you want previous reviewers to be able to review again, you must publish a new version. Take care. Vern
Actually, everything except the closing comment auto saves so it is there. To find it, go to reviews and then inline posted. It's not so intuitive finding a draft so e need to upgrade that at some point.
If everything is supposed to auto save even without hitting "save" or "submit" then there is a glitch somewhere because I've had them disappear when cut off for one reason or another, never to be seen again despite searching all those reviews more than once. No, I can't say where or when because I simply figured it was lost and moved on. Take care. Vern
I used the in-line review for the first time. Pretty good, I like it. But...about half way through I saved my review to have dinner, cam back...could not open it. click click bloody click click, clickity click click. Hee haw. Had to start again.
So does anyone know why? Sarcastic responses welcome.
If you actually "saved" it, then it should show as a "draft" under your in-line reviews posted. If you instead accidentally hit "submit" then it should be there as a normal in-line review would. However, if you mistakenly closed it out without actually hitting either "save" or "submit" then it would disappear as you may have discovered. But the silver lining is that you get to do it all over again as a more experienced reviewer. Your target audience will thank you. Take care. Vern
Hello to you all i have just joined and i am looking forward to reading all the writings
Hi, HH, welcome to the site. It is a great place to read and be read, review and be reviewed. And of course sometimes writers are a bit crazy, lol. Good luck. Take care. Vern
You're sleeping in your grandmother's old house. Her funeral was today. A distant door creaks open. Just the wind? Yeah, that's all it was. Go back to sleep.
You hear a step creek and then another. More, closer and closer. Some--one?--is in the hall. You huddle under the covers. Will you see the dawn again? Will you ever leave this house?
It doesn't have to be The Thing In The Dark. Fan fiction about Gomez and Morticia would be great! Or how about Freddy Kruger meeting Kim Davis! Oh God, I would read that!
Bring back the Halloween contest! I don't even care if there are prizes! I can't go trick-or-treating any more. This is all I have left!
Don't know if there will be a Halloween contest or not - it's getting a little late - but you could always write a Halloween story to enter in the short story contest going on at present and that does pay. It might scare the bejeevies out of the other entrants - and/or judges, lol. Take care. Vern
Alvin York is a good example of a backwoods type who becomes a hero when thrust into war. Another would be Audie Murphy, born of a sharecropper family in Texas, who lied about his age to be accepted in the Army during WWII, and who received just about every award given to soldiers, including two Silver Stars and the Medal of Honor.
Yes, Audie Murphy was/is the most decorated soldier of all time (unless someone I don't know has surpassed him recently). He was also a big movie star after his return. I wasn't aware of his upbringing except that he lied to get in the army. Take care. Vern
If you want real and hero and backwoods, check out Sergeant York, the most decorated soldier of WW1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York
There is also an old movie you might catch. Take care. Vern
I believe this subject actually came up on the old site. At any rate: We would say a "can of Coke, canned food, can opener. We would also say "tin can" to refer to a can in general. The "tin" comes from when cans were actually lined with tin to keep them from rusting on the inside. That is generally no longer the case, but the word still sticks. Hope that helps. Take care. Vern
Scene that sings - literally:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g84dejrJXI
Why does it work? It is the heart of the story in one concise scene and/or song. Yeah, okay, I know it's not exactly what you're looking for, but that's how I think; blame it on the bossa nova, lol. Take care. Vern
SolN wrote:Many of you have already seen the notice about the short story competition. Go ahead and get your stories in! One item that I want to mention for those who haven't participated in a site contest before is that you can update your story up until the deadline. Use the feedback you are receiving to make your entry(ies) even better.
Good luck!
I tried to enter one of the stories I've had posted for a couple of years. It was transferred over from the old site.
Is this possible without using points to do it.
Memphis
This from the contest guidelines:
Posting Date: Postings that are eligible for this contest must be published on site after September 23, 2015
According to this, you would need to republish. Take care. Vern
No winner has been declared; it usually is about a month after the deadline before winners are announced. Unless you're absent from the site for an extended period, I doubt you'll miss it. Take care. Vern
