Topic: The Shred Group

Hi all,
I've created a new group called The Shred Group for those who want total blatant honesty without any of the niceties or encouragement writers should be receiving in the Premium Group. Sometimes reviewers are great at pointing out flaws and helping a writer edit their work but not as diplomatic in how they deliver it. These reviewers still offer a ton of value for writers who have thick enough skins (most of us don't). If you are ready for this type of feedack, or feel like this is how you like to review, then this group is for you.

https://www.thenextbigwriter.com/group- … -group-106

Sol

2 Reply by S. L. Garber-Ortiz (edited by S. L. Garber-Ortiz 2018-01-20 18:22:49)

Re: The Shred Group

Bravo!

3 Reply by graymartin (edited by graymartin 2018-01-21 19:09:58)

Re: The Shred Group

I hope this doesn't mean "flagged" reviewers will be banned from the Premium Group, because this will marginalize some of the most talented -- albeit brutally candid -- members. Criticizing a writer's fundamentals (grammar, punctuation, dialogue) is not abuse, and we all have the ability to block or ignore reviewers we consider offensive. Looking back at grade school and college, some of my most insightful, constructive teachers seemed like real jerks at the time.

The last thing we need is for the Premium Group to become a Wattpad clone in which reviews are the equivalent of Facebook or Instagram "likes" used to garner reciprocal praise with no substance.

Re: The Shred Group

I don't usually comment on the forums, but here goes. I see the Shred group as a transition group. Let Newbies get critique, edit their work, develop a thicker skin, then give the shred group a try. I think it might be a nice place for second/third drafts.

5 Reply by JeffM (edited by JeffM 2018-01-21 23:56:47)

Re: The Shred Group

Hello,

I'm pretty new to the site also, but I've benefitted quite a bit from the honest feedback. It seems to me a writer won't benefit as much from watered-down reviews.

Editors may be good people, but they're not nice.

Perhaps another approach is for the moderator to give warnings before removing someone from the Premium Group? I agree with Gray, that the quality of reviews may suffer as a result of such measures, especially in light of not having clear policies and procedures to this effect. To me, that represents a breach of contract, as a paying member: to be removed from a group without following the site's own policies.

From a policies and procedures perspective, I reviewed the FAQs and policies of the site. Now I truly may have missed the part about how a member may be removed from the Premium Group. Normally a site like this would have a policy that could be followed regarding member conduct. Where none exists, the question of equitable treatment comes into play.

Besides lacking policy, there's the question of promotion. The site promises to "guarantee...substantive feedback" for new members. It may be argued that those who provide honest feedback and thorough reviews help to fulfill that promise, not detract from it.

Just my 2-cents. Jeff

6 Reply by j p lundstrom (edited by j p lundstrom 2018-01-21 23:59:42)

Re: The Shred Group

graymartin wrote:

I hope this doesn't mean "flagged" reviewers will be banned from the Premium Group, because this will marginalize some of the most talented -- albeit brutally candid -- members. Criticizing a writer's fundamentals (grammar, punctuation, dialogue) is not abuse, and we all have the ability to block or ignore reviewers we consider offensive. Looking back at grade school and college, some of my most insightful, constructive teachers seemed like real jerks at the time.

The last thing we need is for the Premium Group to become a Wattpad clone in which reviews are the What good is that? equivalent of Facebook or Instagram "likes" used to garner reciprocal praise with no substance.

1) What's a "flagged" reviewer? Who are they? Who flags them? Why? Does this apply to me? See what a can of worms you opened?
2) I hate to harp on a subject, but didn't we have the equivalent of "likes" when the reviews used to be rated from one to five? The practice was being phased out when I joined, so I never appled the rating system--and a good thing, too, because I didn't know enough to use it. How does a newbie have enough experience to give ratings to reviews? Even if a new member comes from another site where work was reviewed, they still don't have the tnbw vibe. A new member could conceivably use the block and the review rating as a shelter from the truth. What good is to be gained from that?
3) OMG--Wattpad?
JP

Re: The Shred Group

JeffM wrote:

Hello,

I'm pretty new to the site also, but I've benefitted quite a bit from the honest feedback. It seems to me a writer won't benefit as much from watered-down reviews.

Editors may be good people, but they're not nice.

Perhaps another approach is for the moderator to give warnings before removing someone from the Premium Group? I agree with Gray, that the quality of reviews may suffer as a result of such measures, especially in light of not having clear policies and procedures to this effect. To me, that represents a breach of contract, as a paying member: to be removed from a group without following the site's own policies.

From a policies and procedures perspective, I reviewed the FAQs and policies of the site. Now I truly may have missed the part about how a member may be removed from the Premium Group. Normally a site like this would have a policy that could be followed regarding member conduct. Where none exists, the question of equitable treatment comes into play.

Besides lacking policy, there's the question of promotion. The site promises to "guarantee...substantive feedback" for new members. It may be argued that those who provide honest feedback and thorough reviews help to fulfill that promise, not detract from it.

Just my 2-cents. Jeff

Good on ya, Jeff!

8 Reply by j p lundstrom (edited by j p lundstrom 2018-01-22 00:10:33)

Re: The Shred Group

Ann Everett wrote:

I don't usually comment on the forums, but here goes. I see the Shred group as a transition group. Let Newbies get critique, edit their work, develop a thicker skin, then give the shred group a try. I think it might be a nice place for second/third drafts.

I don't know, Ann. People most often prefer to remain static. They don't voluntarily transition. Who would shepherd members through one group to another? At what point is someone ready for change? In theory, it sounds good, but it seems like it would require a lot of oversight, and who's willing to tell someone it's time to sign up to be shredded?  JP

Re: The Shred Group

Another thought, how would a person "confined" to the Shred Group (with its climbing membership of six) receive quality feedback now on their own work? Jeff

10 Reply by graymartin (edited by graymartin 2018-01-22 00:31:00)

Re: The Shred Group

JP: “flagged” is my term, extrapolating what would happen if Sol started removing members from the Premium Group based on feedback that they have hurt another member’s feelings. You could also call it “quarantined.” Of course, personal insults should not be tolerated and I agree with Jeff: we need a code of conduct that lists hate speech and intimidation/bullying as grounds for removal. What constitutes a violation may spur debate, but that’s a healthy conversation. I’ve read some snarky and harsh reviews, but none struck me as malicious or personal in nature.

Reviewer rankings were a huge positive for the site, so I agree with you 100%. Why not acknowledge mentors like Ann and Marilyn for their efforts and energy? I wish Sol brought back a “top reviewers” list, maybe with incentives. Sorry to spend your money, Sol, but Ann and Marilyn deserve free membership for life.

As for Wattpad, maybe I’m just bitter ‘cause I didn’t get, like, a billion likes when I posted. Loved all the constructive and insightful emojis though smile

Re: The Shred Group

In all the years the site has been in existence I've removed maybe 10 people. I don't like to do it and only do so after multiple warnings and thorough deliberation. I also have to receive complaints from multiple people and make a decision upon investigation. Not all cases call for removal. I realize some members are very helpful but they may also not have the sensitivity to review new members or those who are a bit insecure about their writing.  Should a new writer or one who has just plucked up the courage really have to be welcomed with a caustic, "honest review?" TNBW Premium is about providing constructive feedback in a way that doesn't undermine a writer's confidence. The old site had a code of conduct and it got lost in the transition but I'll be happy to bring it back and post it.

With the old site we could only have one type of behaviour since everyone was lumped together and needed to co-exist. With the current site this isn't a problem. New groups can be created where writers can spread their wings and review as they wish.

For those who want more biting reviews you are free to join the Shred Group. In fact, I encourage you to do so. I'd love to see this as a thriving group that provides those with thicker skins the ability to really sling the feedback. But if you're going to remain in Premium the feedback should be honest but also delivered in a considerate, positive way. For the most part, I think this is  how the Group operates anyway.

BTW - I agree that Ann and Marilyn should have honorary free membership and am going to make that happen.

Re: The Shred Group

One other point. Groups are not the only way a writer can receive feedback. If they have developed connections, reviews can be given through these connections.

Re: The Shred Group

Good answer, Sol. I definitely see your point, appreciate the rationale and hope the “Shredders” group thrives. As for the Ann/Marilyn news, I’m thrilled to hear it!

Re: The Shred Group

Thanks for the considerate response, Sol.

Re: The Shred Group

Another way to give feedback is through the forums. A number of us have each created a single running thread for our works-in-progress that are used for continuing discussions, often involving more than just the latest review(s). We also use them for brainstorming with other members. Currently, our threads are located in the Medieval/Fantasy Magic group even though not all of them are fantasy. That's due to the site limit of 10 groups per member. We needed a place to go without maxing out on groups. Stop by and have a look if you like. I could never have written my current book without the collective brainstorming and added feedback of other members there.

16 Reply by Dill Carver (edited by Dill Carver 2018-01-22 01:50:00)

Re: The Shred Group

We've had an informal form of the 'Shred' running for years. It was quite active for a while on the old site but petered out on the new site, replaced by specialist dedicated and independent groups of interest.

It is a great tool and I think it is a wonderful idea to formalise the principle into a group here and now. From previous experience I feel a writer can learn an awful lot from a warts and all review.

In my opinion, the reviews can be brutally honest but they should always be objective rather than subjective. To be given corrective advice and opinion upon grammar, plot and good practice is great but there were always those who'd feel compelled to change a author's voice into their own and insist a story should be written and delivered in the style of their own hand.

The good thing about the 'Shred' being a group is that it has it's dedicated forum, because this kind of reviewing quickly turns into a discussion. The forum allows for interaction in terms of expansion, explanation and debate.

Authors shouldn't worry too much about the harshness of reviewing because reviewers who are subjectively over-zealous, pedantic, petty/officious, authoritative or unfair will be exposing themselves rather than the work they critique . Writers should enter their work in order for it to get it ripped, but fairly and squarely in a totally objective and mature professional manner. 

Very exciting! Thanks Sol. I feel this may strengthen the pulse of the site.

Re: The Shred Group

SolN wrote:

BTW - I agree that Ann and Marilyn should have honorary free membership and am going to make that happen.

I am flattered beyond being flattered.  Thank you, Sol.  What a nice gesture. 

MJ

Re: The Shred Group

graymartin wrote:

As for the Ann/Marilyn news, I’m thrilled to hear it!

Thanks, Gray!  Me, too!  smile

MJ

Re: The Shred Group

Sol,
Bless your heart! That is so kind, and I really appreciate it.

Gray,
Thank you, too, for the kind words!

~Ann

Re: The Shred Group

You can be brutally honest, yet nice about it.  I sometimes use a joke when I think the writer's punctuation needs work, or has a misplaced modifier, or some similar flaw.  We don't have to be a Doc Martin about our editing.  ("You have a choice.  You can condemn your writing to an eternal slush pile or  learn the elements of English grammar!")  But I applaud the shred group but have yet to receive a really brutal review.  Nor I hope, ever given one.  We are all friends here right, even if none of you sent me a Christmas card, nor helped Santa Clause give me what I really wanted for Christmas (A Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum  Come on, guys, it's only 875 dollars.  Split between the lot of you, that's what?  A dollar per person.  But you don't see me whining about it. Do you?  lol)

21 Reply by njc (edited by njc 2018-01-22 11:31:22)

Re: The Shred Group

Please tell me you don't want it in pink!

Seriously, there is a market in pink firearms and accessories.  I'm guessing the only reason there's no market for lace is that it would get caught when the weapon is drawn.  cool

Re: The Shred Group

njc wrote:

Please tell me you don't want it in pink!

Seriously, there is a market in pink firearms and accessories.  I'm guessing the only reason there's no market for lace is that it would get caught when the weapon is drawn.  cool

For the life of me, I don't understand the stupid gender association with a color. Pink, blue, boy, girl, do small kids know the difference or care? I wore pink shirts as a teenager when they were somewhat in vogue and still wear them on occasion. Got and get more compliments than negative reactions. A color is pretty or not regardless of what gender it's on. Humans are stupid animals, lol. Take care. Vern

Re: The Shred Group

It'll be interesting to see how the shred group develops. But I'm curious about a few things.

1) If the Shred group members insist they are doing nothing but offering the truth about grammar, spelling, etc., why are they separating? Isn't that what we signed up for?

2) If new members are to be offered nothing but 'kind,' non-confrontational reviews, aren't they being robbed of the critiques they signed up for?

and 3) Aren't those pandering, say-nothing-of-substance reviews what people spent a month complaining about last year, and still regularly disparage as ineffective? Who wants 'em?

Give me a shot of truth serum from the Sheriff or Keanu anytime. I want to know what needs fixing.  JP

Re: The Shred Group

j p lundstrom wrote:

It'll be interesting to see how the shred group develops. But I'm curious about a few things.

1) If the Shred group members insist they are doing nothing but offering the truth about grammar, spelling, etc., why are they separating? Isn't that what we signed up for?

2) If new members are to be offered nothing but 'kind,' non-confrontational reviews, aren't they being robbed of the critiques they signed up for?

and 3) Aren't those pandering, say-nothing-of-substance reviews what people spent a month complaining about last year, and still regularly disparage as ineffective? Who wants 'em?

Give me a shot of truth serum from the Sheriff or Keanu anytime. I want to know what needs fixing.  JP

I think the separation is because some people, certainly not all, but enough, may not be prepared for the sometimes overly blunt reviews which some (again certainly not all or even a large percentage) provide. There are those who are more sensitive to criticism and there are those who are less tactful in reviewing. It only makes sense that the two have the option for a different environment. No one is required to function in one or the other; there is flexibility for using either or, or both. With the added option, what might be considered "rude' in one forum might be run of the mill in the other. Different skins for different folks or even the same folks at different levels of development. That's the way I see it and applaud the new option. Take care. Vern

Re: The Shred Group

I've read all the posts on this subject so far and, sorry, Sol, but I don't see the need for this shred group. If an author can't take the heat of unfavorable critiques, they can leave. If reviewers are mean-spirited and vitriolic, they can be removed from the site. And we already have a Fight Club group for members who like to duke it out. As far as I know, the Premium Group does not require "niceties" and "encouragement" from reviewers, though most reviewers will try to find something positive in their critiques. They chose to review it after all when they could have passed on it. Finally, I wouldn't want the Premium Group to get the reputation of the place where reviews aren't "honest."