If you can't say something nice ... (Page 3 of 3)

"Some people have nothing to offer in a review and have no idea what you are trying to say when you write and will lack the talent to realize their opinion is not objective analysis. Some people will have incredible insight and lack the ability to present it gently. There's a difference."

Amen. Corra said that shit and her shit is supercool. And possibly slurpable, too. Something to keep in mind, anyway. Look, any sane person walking the Earth knows how to straddle the line between being saccharine and severe when dealing with strangers. Strangers on a train, in a plane, at a PTA meeting, or this muthafuckin digital writer's workshop. As writers (observers, if you will) we oughta know better than anyone how to relate to the variety of experiences and styles out there. Yet, while reading a piece of prose or poetry and then composing a criticism, we still gotta adhere to certain criteria. First is the established criteria laid bare by centuries of storytelling craft and THEN... Well, then the personal effect it has on us. US as imperfect readers who have little to no idea where you're coming from.

Being a critic comes with a certain responsibility, yes, but that responsibility doesn't extend to flattery for flattery's sake. Hell, I've been trolling this website since near the beginnings. Therefore, I've been tempted more than once to go for the nether-regions, the jugular. The only thing keeps stopping me from becoming Simon Cowell's bowels at times is my own self-awareness. But self-awareness is tricky and getting there is even trickier. Funny thing is, you need other people to help get you to a state of self-awareness. I'm still not there. You know why? Because I'm still relatively shy. As Sartre said: HELL is OTHER PEOPLE. You really can't know who to trust, or believe, or please (or if it's even in your bestest interest to try and please or believe anybody) because writing is such a solemn and personal endeavor in the first place. Even when what you're writing is essentially silly.

OTHER PEOPLE will ALWAYS be the bane of said endeavor, is what I'm saying.

Furthermore, what I'm trying to say is... Well, what Corra already kinda said. Instead of fishing for compliments and encouragement, be grateful for the harsh criticisms and may the castigations spur you on. With a grain of salt, of course. Because, like I said: HELL IS OTHER PEOPLE.

"Fuck John Hamler's opinion! Who the hell is this guy trying to rewrite my opening sentence, anyway? I looked him up and I don't like the way he writes. The man stinks. Even when I hold his ass out the window."

And that would be a perfectly acceptable response to my venomous review. Just don't ask me to sugarcoat my poisoned pills. If you know what I mean.

Cheers

John

A lot of good writers were run off the last site because reviewers took out their personal issues on them. They formed writing groups independent of TNBW because it was so toxic. I had reviews given to my writing that had NOTHING to do with my work and everything to do with reviewers personal opinion of ME. Is there really in any virtue in tearing apart someone's work, being sarcastic, snarky and disrespectful just because you C-A-N? The last I looked none of us is working for the New York Times as literary critics. We're a motley crew of writers whose main objective should be to get people's best work out of them. I just don't see how discouraging people with nasty reviews, however correct, is going to do that. I also see no virtue in encouraging others to rip up your writing, because by asking reviewers to do that you are inviting them to be as dishonest in their assessment of your work as any undeserved flattery.

Okay, let's have it right.

It is also a fact that an awful lot of writers (not just those you judge to be good, but writers of all perceived ability) from the old site, have left the new-site since it was re-invented… for 'whatever' reason.

Opinions, agendas, individual experiences, delusions and fake news prevails... but there are still many here from the old site, who know.

Yes, on the old site there was the odd nasty idiot and some odd victims.

The way I remember it the odd nasty idiots were soon rooted-out by the community and SolN who banned anyone toxic immediately. I don’t remember it as the bully-riddled hate fuelled society that you recall. It was policed by tNBW site admin fairly and efficiently.

I joined the site in 2006 as psychologically fragile writer without much education and no formal training within the craft or writing whatsoever. A foreign Johnny to boot.

I wrote, and the product was not technically correct, I hadn’t mastered basic grammar let alone advanced language rules. I didn’t know about tense, POV, redundancy and all those other tools essentially required in order to produce creative writing of even the lowest quality.

The reviewers on the old site put me right. They gave me advice, example and encouragement in abundance. They extended the hand of genuine friendship and I have many friendships today, on and (mostly off) the current site that were established upon the old tNBW site. I’m sure this is the same experience that many of the old tNBW veterans here share.

I collected my share of inappropriate reviews from the odd nasty idiot. These reviews were occasional and ignored. The vast majority of reviews were appropriate, even several cutting ones. The hardest lessons to learn were the most valuable.

I, like the majority of writers on old tNBW simply ignored vindictive inappropriate reviews. As I’ve already mentioned, those reviewers were rounded upon by the community and banished by SolN.

On receipt of a harsh over critical or unfair review, I remember once or twice the regular senior writers and reviewers rushing to my defence and chastising the editor in question. There was a real warmth and comradeship to be gained from tNBW family.

Just about every member (including this thread originator) who has recounted or cited an example of an inappropriate review here, has implied that the negative review actually strengthened their resolve; It bolstered their determination to write well; negative turned to positive, bad review be dammed.

So an inappropriate review is an invalid review. It is irrelevant. Idiots are a fact of life. Simply ignore the stupid review and move on.

It wasn’t all one-side critique bullies driving good writers from the site. I mentioned the ‘odd victims’.

Some of these odd victims loved to play the victim card. Rather than simply ignore a review they considered inappropriate they would react. More than react, they conducted an episode. They psychotically demanded sympathy, apology, revenge, retribution, atonement and blood-feud in equal measure and immediately.

Spats over nothing.

Some writers could never accept the slightest criticism, even if the points of contention were valid (technically correct)… let alone invalid. Some of these poor victims could never separate critique of their story or their prose from a personal attack upon them as an individual.  Some were so proud and protective of their precious prose, feeling it their God-given right never to be criticised or questioned upon anything lest they create hell, and anyone who criticised their work was labelled a nasty antagonist. Anyone else who, out of truth and reason, happened to agree with the reviewer was accused of creating or operating a clique. A gang imagined to persecute and beat the poor defenceless victim.

A vast minority, the idiot reviewers and the precious pariah victims; but they made the noise of many.

Some hated the old tNBW and the members therein (because they were the site) with a vengeance. Some loved the place. I will remember it with reverence and affection because it transformed me as a writer and a person and provided me with lifelong friends. We all remember it differently and I doubt that we will ever see it's like again.

The world has changed. People’s values have changed. At my junior school sports day all of the heats were fiercely contested. Each race had a winner, runners-up and losers. The winners were championed and they were (as I remember) a memorable event, glorious, highly emotional days.

By the time my children had their sports days, competitiveness, striving for triumph was considered nasty and inappropriate. It was completely banned. No losers allowed, non-competitive games, every kid an equal winner. Anyone who voiced an alternate opinion was rounded upon quite ferociously for being a fascist, sexist, uber-macho knuckle-dragging Neanderthal. The sports days became boring, mundane, dull and avoidable fluffy pointless days that die quickly in terms of memory.

My kids? The passive generation of victims who live in absolute terror of the tough immigrant kids from Eastern Europe, the Middle East and Africa who strip them of their cash, iPhones, bicycles and designer training shoes at will. These soft wibbling liberalised UK kids who are chastised for being racist if they dare describe the ethnic origin of their attackers.   

Well, I've gone a little off piste at the end, but those who know what I'm saying will understand. Those who don't, never will. Such is the way of the world.

I've just posted the following in the thread "How old are you?" but I think it also belongs in this one:

I remember I was still in college and had just decided I wanted to get serious writing a story I had in mind. I tried other sites, but found some of them had a list of requirements to join, like already being a published writer, and in others I didn't felt exactly welcomed.

Then I tried this one. I must admit it was difficult at first, because I was a kinda bad writer back then (not that I'm a very good one nowadays, but I have improved with the help of everybody around here), so I got a bunch of reviews I didn't like. I mean... I felt quite disappointed. Not that people were mean, they only pointed at my flaws and, because they were many, it hurt. It really hurt.

One day, John Hamler, The Dear John Hamler, reviewed my first chapter, rewrote the first para, and was kinda harsh. He pissed me off so I wrote him back a long reply. To my surprise, when he reviewed chapter two, he added the following note:

"Well, well... I must admit, with some shame, that I do a lot of drive-by reviews. Not because I need the points (although that's part of it) but because I relish reading new (to me) authors and see if they engage me. 90% of the time they brush me off. Especially when I disdain more than applaud. Not a big deal --we're all busy people, of course-- but I do get interested when an author is so involved with the idea of a "lit" community that they feel the need to be effusive in defense of their work. And you, Mariana, were not only effusive. You were eloquent, too.

"So there's that... And that's why I'm back for chapter two."

Eloquent.

Can you guys believe??? I had written a first chapter he'd catalogued as pre-shit but then my answer had been eloquent. It meant: despite I'd written a first chapter full of opportunity areas (to put it gently), I could write well enough to be considered eloquent when defending my work. More than any other polite encouragement so far received ("you have a story to tell"; "you have a really good story here, you just need to polish it up a bit"; "I remember this story; you've cleaned it up a lot from the last time I saw it", etc.) John's words, that my reply had been eloquent, empowered me. So, I was not such a crappy writer at all, but one who could be eloquent if I put my mind to it.

I then decided no new criticism would ever hurt me again. I would learn from anything any reviewer mentioned, and will write, and rewrite, and rewrite until I produced a decent, publishable story, or the end of the world, whatever came first.

The rest is history, because I finished that story (Amber Eyes) and self-published it in Amazon two year ago. As of today, I've almost reach 800 copies sold, which I recognise is no biggie, but it means 800 people have read my story. What else could a writer ask for? Become rich? Well, yes, but I'm in no hurry. Besides, if I keep working hard, writing a lot, endeavouring to improve, and with the help of my fellow writers at TNBW, as our Lord used to say: "all these thing shall be added on to you".

Kiss,

Gacela

Dagnee said: "Is there really in any virtue in tearing apart someone's work, being sarcastic, snarky and disrespectful just because you C-A-N?"

Dagnee has a point. I truly don't think anyone meant to be genuinely cruel or disrespectful, but (as Dill Carver pointed out) the old site WAS kinda/sorta rife with snark and sarcasm. Especially on the forums. Where I myself ran wild for a while. It was a bit like how the forum of Times Square used to be rife with prostitution and general seediness before it became an antiseptic Disneyland. Some folks (myself included) are actually nostalgic for that dangerous flavor. To a point, that is. The point Dagnee makes. It's probably for the best that our correspondence here on TNBW never gets too personal or political.

Then again, I also like Gacela's story. Not just because she glorifies John Hamler (although that's always cool) but because she realized that exercising her personal right to defend her writing (with eloquent rhetoric) can actually be an empowering writing exercise. I know that's a mouthful, but y'all know what I mean. I guess I'm pretty cynical by nature but I'm honestly not trying to test anyone's sense of irony or perspective or perseverance when I give a harsh review. Just trying to be honest. And maybe a little sarcastic. The sarcasm is for me, though. It helps to alleviate the stress and strain of having to tell somebody that --in MY opinion-- their writing stinks. Of course that brings us back full circle to the title of this thread: IF YOU CAN'T SAY SOMETHING NICE...

Words of love maybe, but luckily, and for the sake of humanity, NOT words of wisdom. Nor words to live by. All you gotta do is look at President Trump's equivocating words on Charlottesville last week. Which speaks to playing the "victim card" as Dill put it, even when the "victim" in that case holds all the power. Especially the power to change his or her rhetoric for the greater good. But that's a whole 'nother kettle of rotten fish me and Dill might have argued about. On the old site, that is.

In closing, and in the closing words of the great Billy Joel: "Don't take no shit offa nobody." If you're gonna be a wannabe writer, and even if some (or most of you good people) can't quite relate biologically: Show some Balls. Brass balls, for that matter. And wear a jock-strapping cup to protect those precious balls of yours. Because it's a rough jungle out there. Rightly, if not righteously, so.

Cheers

John

P.S. This is kinda fun. Kinda like the old forum used to be. Where I essentially get to bloviate and masturbate at the expense of actually being productive as a writer.

Nice.

That was my point. I begrudgingly used the male dignity to dignify ALL of our dignities. Because it's easier. Furthermore, having tits is NOT courageous. Case in point: My silly fat thirteen year old nephew has tits and he's basically a titmouse. Which, of course, makes your point, Rachel. Because being born with balls doesn't necessarily make a man ballsy. But the nomenclature is understood, I think. Know what I'm saying?

Great line, Corra!  I hope you turn that into a short story, spoken from the view of a uterus.  "Hi, my name is Uterus." 

Grow some Unicorns!

Sometimes you want to know precisely what you're getting. Then, you look to the unicorn. No games. Just sparkle.

Oh, that's nice! Reduce it to a piece of meat. Just like a man!!