1 (edited by Marilyn Johnson 2017-08-19 12:29:16)

Topic: If you can't say something nice ...

When I was a child, my mother always said, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

This morning I read reviews given by some reviewers on here, not on MY work, but on the writing of others, and I am appalled at how cruel some of you can be.  Is that necessary?  Seriously?  There is a difference between 'constructive' criticism and downright meanness.  Kind, constructive words should show the correct way, not criticize for it not being correctly written. 

The best way for you to discourage someone, especially a new writer, is to be mean with your reviews.  There were more than a few I read, and I couldn't believe some of them.  Telling a person they don't know how to create a sentence, or how to write a paragraph, or how to do punctuation is not only cruel, but unnecessary.  They wouldn't be here if they knew everything.  This site is for learning, and whether you believe it not, you don't know everything either.  Not everyone writes the same way you do.  Not everyone knows all the rules to abide by when it comes to the art of writing.  They are here to learn, else their work would be in the best-sellers list at Barnes & Noble, and so would yours. 

I am not pointing fingers, but you know who you are.  I am asking you to take my mother's advice.  If you don't like what you're reading, don't be mean about it.  Close it and go to something else.  You do not have the last word on someone else's hard work.  Don't try to rewrite what they've written unless they ask you to. I am taking up for those who have been too kind in their replies to your sarcasm and hurtful words.

I rest my case.

MJ

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

Marilyn Johnson wrote:

When I was a child, my mother always said, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."
  They wouldn't be here if they knew everything.  This site is for learning, and whether you believe it not, you don't know everything either.  Not everyone writes the same way you do.  Not everyone knows all the rules to abide by when it comes to the art of writing.  They are here to learn, else their work would be in the best-sellers list at Barnes & Noble, and so would yours. 

MJ


Ahhh. This is stated perfectly.
It IS a workshop site, after all.
Brilliant, MJ. People like you, those who guide, lead-not-tell and do it with encouragement, make time here worthwhile.

Personally, I accept all reviews and know I have much to learn. And I will reply graciously.
Furthermore, any feedback I give will be respectful. Someone showed courage, putting their creation out there, into the world.
To be an asshole about it... Well that just shows what sort of person you are.
A piece a shit. In case you were unsure.

But the anonymity of these interwebs has certainly bred a more courageous human being.
Wasn't the case... just a few moons ago.

Stay great, MJ.  Keep being a reason to remain on this site. You're one of mine.

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

You have nailed it MJ. I completly agree. You can still get points by correcting spelling, punctuation and maybe a word choice comment. But to tell someone to revmove sentenences or paragraphs is a little much.

I already blocked one.

J.J.

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

Are you talking to me? I hope not--I do get carried away at times. Sometimes there's just so much you want to say, you'd like to sit down side-by-side with the writer and explain things. Didn't we used to have a forum for that on the old site?

You're right--it is discouraging to have so many negatives given on your work. I had been a member of tnbw for about three months when I just up and quit.  Not only was I inundated with remarks I know were meant to be helpful, I didn't understand what the remarks meant! Wasn't there a forum for basic writing skills on the old site?

Nowadays, I do a paragraph or two, and if it looks like there's too much to say, I just let my review be for those paragraphs. Then I explain I don't want to overwhelm the writer with too much feedback. Is there a better way to deal with the problem?

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

j p lundstrom wrote:

Are you talking to me? I hope not--I do get carried away at times. Sometimes there's just so much you want to say, you'd like to sit down side-by-side with the writer and explain things. Didn't we used to have a forum for that on the old site?

LOL, JP, you never even crossed my mind!  You've done reviews for me and you are so very kind all the time!  No, the reviews I read this morning that pissed me off were not reviews for my own personal work.  They were for other writers on here.  Just too much for me to let slide by without saying something about it. 

Cheers to you, friend!

MJ

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

j p lundstrom wrote:

Not only was I inundated with remarks I know were meant to be helpful, I didn't understand what the remarks meant!

Ooh, I just reread your response, and thought I would bring this out:  You are right!  When I first joined in 2008, someone told me I had changed POVs.  I had no clue what a POV was and had to look it up!  This is what I mean.  People who are new to writing don't always know what the comments mean or why their reviewer said what they did because they just don't know the ins and outs of all the rules of writing.  This site is for learning.

You hit the nail on the head, JP.  This is what I mean.  Don't just tell me I switched POV, show me how I did it and why I shouldn't do it again.  That's how you learn!  I know what a POV is now, thanks to this site, but to the new writers on here a review can be daunting!

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

I agree with that statement up to a point. While there is no excuse for being rude or obnoxious in a review, we all give our "opinions" on how to perhaps make the writing/story better or at least offer an alternative way of saying something. Most authors on this site understand that the review is to offer suggestions for possible improvement, but there are some who enter the domain who apparently become upset if their work is not praised up one side and down the other which of course is not conducive to learning more about the craft.

I do think an author can learn from basically one sided reviews (what might be construed as negative), but the best reviews cover what is good and what could be improved in the opinion of the reviewer. All we offer is our honest opinions, hopefully. It is up to the author to decide if any suggestions should be incorporated into their work; that is part of the learning process also, but can't be learned if only pats on the back are presented by the reviewer. That "great gob, you're ready for publishing" to me is a disservice to the author even if it is all they are looking for.

Please understand I'm not arguing against what MJ has said, merely expanding the thought process a bit in much the way MJ does in her own excellent reviews. Take care. Vern

8 (edited by Sideman 2017-08-13 08:15:47)

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

I fully agree with Marilyn. My grandfather (he died in 1966) was the smartest man I've ever known. he taugjt me one thing I've never forgotten. I've used it extensively in my personal and professional lives. And that was :  Don't complain about my Plan A if you don't have a better Plan B.

Any time I suggest a writer change something, I explain, often in detail, why I think the change is worth consideration. If I don't have a better Idea than you do about something, I'll keep my mouth shut. The one exception is when something reads awkwardly and I don't know why, I'll simply say that - "That passage just didn't read smoothly for me, but I can't put my finger on it. If the reason comes to me, I'll get back to you."


I've found that most folks who are rude and brash to others usually fall into one group - the only way they know how to feel about themselves is by belittling others. It's not always true, more often than not, I think it is.

My approach is simple:  You don't have to be nice; just don't be rude.

My thoughts.

Alan

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

Sideman wrote:

... when something reads awkwardly and I don't know why, I'll simply say that - "That passage just didn't read smoothly for me, but I can't put my finger on it.

...just don't be rude.



Alan


My thoughts, too, Al.

I have no issue with someone offering what they perceive is a better way to phrase something. Hell, I welcome it! I don't know a damned thing about writing other than what my heart tells my fingers to do.
But don't be a dick.

That's pretty much a way to live. Don't. Be. A. Dick.

It's so easy!

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

This is a wonderful discussion, and a reminder of the golden old days of engaging and thoughtful forum threads. I've been a spotty site participant over the past year, but sense the site has become more lively lately, thanks to some new players but also renewed interest among veterans too.

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

Applause!

12 (edited by K L van Kriedt 2017-08-14 15:21:24)

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

I live with a guilty conscience (instilled by my parents) so of course I think, Marilyn, that you're pointing a finger at me, although you and I have had plenty of pleasant and constructive back and forth reviews.
I'm pretty sure I'm a pain in the ass to some of the people I review. I'm nit-picky and opinionated, but I can say I've never been sarcastic. First of all, I pick pieces to review that resonate with me so, right off the bat, I value them. I also love to get as good as I give. I love detailed, insightful, into the heart of the matter reviews.
When I joined this site last April (or was it February), I'd done very little reviewing so I've had to hone my reviewing skills at the same time as my writing skills. I know I'm guilty of re-writing people's work (the brazen audacity!); although I recognized this and have consciously developed other ways of getting my feedback across. However, my writer's voice/inner editor will out and sometimes I just can't shut them up.
Still, when I've received rewritten passages from others, I've learned from the experience. Some of the rewrites I've liked better than my own writing and kept them wink, some not as well as my own and let them slide. It's so interesting, the process of painting what's in your mind in such a way that another person can receive a reasonable facsimile. I find that, when someone repeats my words back to me in their voice, it's kinda like Active Listening. I learn a lot from hearing how my words come across. I often make adjustments and my work improves as a result.
I agree with Vern that it's up to the author to decide what feedback works for them and which doesn't. Building conviction is part of developing voice.
I'm on this site because I'm serious about my writing. I welcome "into it" reviews. 
And "into it" forum threads like this one. Thank you, Marilyn, for raising an important topic. Cheers! Karen

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

K L van Kriedt wrote:

I live with a guilty conscience (instilled by my parents) so of course I think, Marilyn, that you're pointing a finger at me, although you and I have had plenty of pleasant and constructive back and forth reviews.

You never crossed my mind, Karen.  The reviews I was so appalled over are not reviews on any of my personal writing.  It had to do with reviews given to others, and in particular to new people who have just come onboard here.  Writers who have so proudly and bravely posted their first few chapters, only to have that confidence in their ability to write shot down in one fell swoop by a nasty comment telling them to go back to school and learn to write. There's a right way and a wrong way to offer help, and I raise my hackles when I see a review from someone who is cold and calloused.   

You're right.  You and I banter back and forth frequently, and I've come to value your opinions and respect your talent as a writer.  I've never seen anything from you except pleasant suggestions and comments, and you always offer 'why' when you make a suggestion.  I've read some reviews you have given to others, and not once have I found anything offensive from you.  I always look forward to a lively discussion whenever I see your name pop up in my review box.  Thanks for all your help.

Cheers,
MJ

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

Whenever I get the feeling that a review of my work is more about the reviewer expressing an opinion that has nothing to do with my writing, and I don't feel it's useful, I delete it. If I get another one from the same reviewer, then I block them. We are not meant to be critics to tear apart someone's work but reviewers giving helpful advice to make each other's work better.
This is something I try to remember when I review: “All cruel people describe themselves as paragons of frankness.” Tennessee Williams
smile

15 (edited by Mariana Reuter 2017-08-14 20:24:35)

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

Generally speaking, I agree with Marilyn that any feedback offered in this site must be respectful, however crappy the work reviewed may seem to the reviewer. "To be polite, doesn't mean you're not courageous". Dunno if the saying exists in English, but it does in Spanish, and it means that you can be blunt without offending. Fred Flintstone used to say: "an iron fist in a silky glove". There's no room for sarcasm, derision, or insult in TNBW.

The above said, and despite how nice the envelope may be, it's always kinda unpleasant that somebody else points at our errors. So, both new and seasoned writers must grow a thick skin. New writers more than the seasoned ones, for the former are more prone to overlook details than the former.

Reviewers are not entitled to suggest a plan B. It's nice when somebody does, because it makes things easier for the writer (I myself have answered to some remarks: "well... how would you rewrite it?" and many of my reviewers have been so kind to share how they would have written it), but the reviewer has done her job only by pointing at an opportunity area.

E.g., imagine there's a fact not plausible within the universe created by an author in a story. A fact not otherwise explained by the previously laid-off rules (laid-off? Is that English?) . A good reviewer's job is to point at that fact. "Hey, writer! This is not plausible. You said before that bananas were roots in this planet, like carrots are. But now you're now saying they grow in trees!" A plan B? Nay, nay! It's the author's job to fix it, because now the Black Knight will need to find some other yellow fruit growing on trees to bring to the wizard and free the princess. While grammatical mistakes are simple and a plan B, or the correct option, is typically provided  (this is a comma splice, better use a semicolon or make two separated sentences), some opportunity areas require heavy rewriting.

Also, I disagree that the reviewer should explain the writer what "plausible" means, and how do plausibility rules within a story's universe work. Even if the writer specifically comes back to the reviewer with the question ("I'm terribly sorry but... what the hell is 'plausible'? First time in my life I hear the word"), there's no obligation that the reviewer teaches the writer. If the reviewer is cool, she may elaborate on the subject. I'm assuming all reviewers here are here, but some don't have enough time, or are not in the mood, or have just broken a leg.

A new writer mustn't be discouraged because a reviewer is getting a bit too technical. On the contrary, she should look-up whatever she doesn't understand, just as Marilyn did with the POV stuff. I think that's the proper, proactive attitude, and the one expected from an aspiring author: that she does her homework and research.

What all of us must foster, is building a network. Once you have a group of friends within the site whom you review and who review you (please raise your hand if I've just used "whom" and  "who" incorrectly, I'm a French girl who mostly speaks Spanish), it's likely that you and they would find the right way to approach each other constructively and respectfully, notwithstanding that you point at serious literary gaps.

BTW, it may be easier if Marilyn hints who she is addressing more clearly, otherwise half of the writers here will crucify themselves, or will, just in case, frantically start checking each and every of their reviews within the last week. tongue

Kiss,

Gacela

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

Mariana Reuter wrote:

BTW, it may be easier if Marilyn hints who she is addressing more clearly, otherwise half of the writers here will crucify themselves, or will, just in case, frantically start checking each and every of their reviews within the last week. tongue

Kiss,

Gacela

I would never do that, Gacela.  A public flogging is not what I'm after here.  I am merely bringing this up as a discussion in hopes that everyone will be kind.  No one should crucify themselves unless they are guilty of this misdeed.   

Have a blessed day, all.

MJ

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

Well... two or three people were already apologising in advance above, just in case. But I agree: it's worth mentioning the crime so nobody else may commit it again, but not the criminal's name.

Kiss,

Gacela.

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

This is a healthy discussion of the role of the reviewer on tnbw. I've said before that we more honestly should call what we do "critiquing" (is that a word?), which is not to criticize in the popular sense, but to analyze, assess and appreciate. A reviewer reads and gives an opinion.

I am grateful to all the people here at tnbw who through their thoughtful reviews have caused me to tear apart, reword and rebuild my stories. It is never more evident than when succeeding readers compliment my work. It's an ongoing process that has taught me a lot. The rewards are great--it's worth putting up with a few hard feelings at first.

My favorite reviewers are the ones who stick with me through an entire book. I try to return the favor. Thanks, everyone.  JP

19 (edited by corra 2017-08-16 17:43:02)

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

One guy a few years ago popped onto one of my poems here and offered nothing at all except the remark that my poem was pretentious: "Affected. Showy. Attempting to imply greater importance or talent than is possessed." Apparently.

I wish I had the poem because I think now I'd look at it and maybe see what he meant. At the time I was confused because "pretentious" is such a judgment word -- as in, pretentious where? What do you mean? It sounded like something you say to someone who not only knows what they're doing, but thinks they're the best. I didn't know what I was doing? I was out there learning, and one must blot the page before she learns how to paint. I think the poem he called pretentious was my tenth attempt at a poem ever. My prior attempts were even worse: not poetry at all! Just emotional outpourings. I felt this one was at least nudging toward a more universal theme. It probably was pretentious? That's a beginning! I'd rather have a pretentious poem than a blank page. But pretentious in what sense, sir? He didn't pull out a single line from the poem to illustrate his point or describe the effect on the reader. He just passed judgment and moved on, as if we both agreed that the posting was my final product and that I was merely collecting votes.

I could take a blunt critique. A couple months before, my creative writing prof had asked me to attend a writing seminar and share a poem I'd recently written. I don't know how I got on that list, not being a poet at all, but she had liked something I'd submitted, and was confident it would be well-received at the seminar. The seminar involved a few of my fellow students posting their undergrad work on an overhead screen for all to read, and having a guest speaker {professional poet} assess the work for those present as a means to learn.  My writing professor felt certain he'd like my effort. He did not!

When my poem came up on the overhead, I was called to the front and stood by the overhead screen a little nervous but fairly confident. As he read the opening lines, he writhed and scowled and wriggled in his seat and burst out with, "Ah, uh, no! NO, NO, NO." {I assume he was not privy to reading my poor, raggedy attempt before this moment.} Then he publicly decimated my work, line by line, punctuating every remark with NO, UH, NO, NO, NO as he told me over the course of several minutes why this horrific poem was in fact the worst attempt at poetry he had ever read.

Everyone else was embarrassed for me, but I believe I stood beside the overhead screen the whole time with my eyes on him, grinning ear to ear. I signed up for his class the following semester, and exhausted myself writing MANY POEMS based on his daily prompts.

The poem I posted here at TNBW that day was for his class. It was written in about an hour because we were writing two or three poems a night. Was it pretentious? Well, not purposefully, but it was certainly fumbling and out of my element. {I am not a poet. I like writing stories. The poems I write are exercises intended to help strengthen my narrative writing, and like I said, I think that poem was my tenth attempt.} So the reviewer's assessment probably wasn't off. But he didn't CRITIQUE my work; he judged it. Big difference.

Any Jim off the street can reduce ten hours {days, months, years} of a writer's hard work to the comparatively pint-sized remark "this is pretentious." It takes an experienced reader to explain why it reads that way. And honestly, if a person reviews you without offering analysis, unless they make some pretty good sense, it's probably best to toss the remarks. They may have no idea what they're talking about. Don't toss a great negative analysis. Those are absolutely priceless. But toss the ones that come without any back-up, because those are likely just opinions. If they can't even say why they think what they think, what possible relevance can their opinion have?

I don't like scrambled eggs. That's an opinion. I don't like the way you make scrambled eggs. That's an opinion. I like the way you make scrambled eggs, and also I like scrambled eggs. OPINIONS. I don't like the way you make scrambled eggs, because you put too much salt in them, and this overwhelms the flavor of the egg. If you would only add a sprinkle of salt, you'd find that the flavor of the egg is enhanced rather than smothered. This would improve the flavor of the egg immensely. Analysis.

"This poem is pretentious." Opinion. "This poem makes no sense to me, therefore I can only assume it is pretentious." Opinion. {Stupid one.} "This poem is written so distantly I feel alienated from it as a reader. For example, the line ______ accomplishes nothing. It's as if you're trying to list lofty ideas but you lack the talent / experience to tie them together into a unifying point. That's probably why it feels pretentious to me. It's as if you're not thinking of the reader at all. You're just trying to say things poets say, and you don't really know why you're saying them. Poetry isn't lofty ideas listed in a pretty way. Poetry says something impactful. You haven't said anything here. Figure out what you want to say." Analysis. Tough analysis, but valuable analysis.

"This poem is pretentious, and I'm going to tell you why. You are writing down to your readers. Take the following line, for example. It is _____. This leaves your reader feeling alienated and removed from the poem's point. If you rewrite it as follows, you will see that the exact same message comes across, but now you are not pushing the reader away. You are inviting him or her in." To which I might have replied, "That is helpful! However, my purpose was to distance the reader. Not to be pretentious, but because the theme is _____ and I thought that theme might be amplified by the actual distancing experience created by the way I constructed that line. I was experimenting. I believe this is only my tenth poem in my entire life." To which he might have replied, "I see! So I reacted emotionally to your poem and was disgusted, and that feeling is what you wanted, but I didn't take it far enough to reflect. I wonder if adding a line here might push the reader closer to where you want him or her to go." To which I might reply, "I like that suggestion! Thank you. I couldn't see it until you pointed it out, but I can see now I hadn't taken it far enough."

Conversation!! <3 Two people learn a little together as writers, and the work is valuably assessed and improved, not because the writer auto-edited based on a nameless reviewers' opinions, but because the writer was pushed out of her perspective a little, and so was the reviewer, as they each tried to pinpoint what the work was trying to say, and why it missed.

Marilyn, it sounds like the people you're talking about above are out offering opinions laced with arrogance, rather than analysis. That's a real shame. Reviewing is valuable exercise that potentially benefits both the writer and the reviewer. I would hope new writers here see this thread and learn to sift the useless remarks from the helpful criticism. Arrogance has no place in creative work, and unfortunately on a site like this, arrogance can be found amongst both the writers and the reviewers. When you find a strong writer able to listen, and a strong reviewer able to analyze, that's the magic. It's of enormous importance that new writers learn to sift the opinions from useful analysis.

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

Thank you so much for those who have spoken up for us beginners.  This is a great site. I have grown and learned much from those who have taken their time to critique me in kind and gentle ways. I appreciate what you have done for me.

Thanks again,  Nita Jean

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

Yeah, but... This is a bit of pretzel logic, if you will. Pleasantries aside, lemme play Devil's Advocate here and say: This is why we bleeding-heart liberals get called snowflakes. It's why we lost the American Presidency to a troll doll. Sometimes your writing stinks and there's no easy way for me to say it. Saying nothing at all might be "nicer" but...

Criticism doesn't always need to be constructive. And arrogance can be a virtue. Long as it's honest and not steeped in jealousy or whatever the fuck. Honesty TRUMPS all. As long as we bear in mind that the honesty is particular. To a particular audience member. Instead of sifting thru polite reviews, looking for patterns of equivocating criticism, wouldn't it serve us all better to be TOLD how bad we are? To ask a reviewer to be specific and magnanimous about our shittiness is probably asking too much.  I know damn well, when I'm reviewing, that I resort to sarcasm and derision and thinly-veiled contempt at times. I think there's a series of televised commercials out there right now, espousing the same thing. That thing being: What people are REALLY thinking when they look at you and your work/situation.

Therefore, I take umbrage when someone complains about harsh criticism.  It all comes down to writing for yourself. Writing to satisfy yourself. First and foremost. If the consensus returns a damning verdict? Well, then you know that being yourself ain't good enough to satisfy. So become someone else then. That's the beauty of fiction. You can be whoever you think they want you to be. And if that fails, you can always be a bartender. Everyone loves a bartender. Especially frustrated writers. smile

Cheers

John

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

Devil's Advocate. I dunno if I really believe any of that shit. smile

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

Sometimes your writing stinks[,] and there's no easy way for me to say it. Saying nothing at all might be "nicer" but...

Your writing stinks. .... lol tongue wink

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

corra wrote:

Sometimes your writing stinks[,] and there's no easy way for me to say it. Saying nothing at all might be "nicer" but...

Your writing stinks. .... lol tongue wink

Shazaam!!!

Re: If you can't say something nice ...

We came here in the same year, and I remember many times when I didn't get the drift of a reviewer's comments. One of early reviewers was Sarah Scotti, who more or less took me under her wing. One of her first criticisms was how I had used a flashback during a flashback. Ah, the good old days.
By the way, keep your critters out of the partial eclipse shadow next Monday. Perhaps blinders for the donkeys if you don't have barn room.
A lot of dogs, all over the country, and other pets as well are going to have eye damage if their outside during the solar eclipse. Their curiosity will likely make them look at the partial eclipse, and even one glimpse at the sun will result in permanent damage.