corra wrote:

On the matter of invisible gnomes, I'm reading Jasper Fforde's The Eyre Affair.

This book was recommended to me by MANY people. I can't say I cared for it in the end. I did like it in concept, but it read like a 1980s graphic novel. And the travesty! Entering Thornfield Hall and suggesting everyone in the novel knows they're fiction and that they live their lives over and over. I'd have liked it a lot more if the author hadn't made them aware they are fiction. That makes a cartoon out of a favorite novel. Interesting concept, but the delivery felt cartoonish, a little sloppy, and manic. I felt absolutely nothing for the main character, which is never good. I spent the whole book wanting her to hurry up and go to Thornfield Hall (because her long personal journey meant nothing to me), and once she got there I wanted her to get off sacred ground, ha ha. Just not my thing.

Starting The Underground Railroad by Colson Whitehead. And probably a read of No Ordinary Time by Doris Kearns Goodwin. It's sitting on my bed, having been shoved into my hands by my mother, who insists I will like it. smile

Speaking of history which is under-discussed. (Watched tonight.)

Hi, Gray. I don't want to share her contact information as I'm not sure she'd appreciate that, but I've sent her a note on Facebook pointing her to this post. If she's about she should see it. smile

J.R.R. Tolkien, magic, elves, hobbits.

(I took the liberty.) cool

Dill Carver wrote:

A very astute woman, that Miss Margaret.

She said the analysis on her novel was a lot of overthinking. New South versus Old South versus North as symbolized by Scarlett, Ashley, and Rhett? She said none of that was on her mind. She just wanted to tell a "yarn." smile

Dill Carver wrote:
corra wrote:

This happened with The Time Traveler's Wife! I found that film quite disappointing.

My eldest daughter, a big fan of the novel The Time Traveler's Wife! was equally disappointed with the movie, I remember.

She pressured me for months to read the novel and I took it away on my travels but lost it.

I've read it three times. I loved it the first two times. The book is much, much, much better than the movie, and really clever in its presentation. By the third read, I got a little tired of the lists of punk rock and art and food. It felt a little overdone. The story itself is still really clever though.

Dill Carver wrote:

'A Christmas Carol' would be an exception to the rule, if the fantasy elements were not confined within Scrooge's feverish dreams. A man in the real world has fantasy dreams... he dosen't exist within a fantasy world. 

corra wrote:

And what about The Tempest (sorcerers), Macbeth (witches), Hamlet (a ghost)?

Shakespeare's plays use a degree metaphor and symbolism that you wont find within a Dickens novel.

I don't disagree. I think Shakespeare used magic in his works to debunk (contrast) it, not to promote it. He tends to start out with the magic, and end up with something more true to life. I just wanted to hear your take.

Dickens? A Christmas Carol is my favorite story by him. Again, just wanted to see your take on it in light of this topic.

(Perhaps) Tolkien meant the magic/creatures symbolically as well? If he did, it's interesting (to me) to consider what he may have been doing. Interesting in the science fiction way my professor suggested, and interesting in light of the WWI thing I read. You say the WWI idea is complete idiocy, and I have nothing to measure against as I've never read the books. I trust your reading prowess. I'm just relieved you made it out of that trilogy alive! wink

(I am in no way defending Tolkien, by the way. I have no interest in the books whatsoever. My remark on WWI above was literally me making a deadpan joke: "I believe it's about WWI. I read that somewhere." As in, if I read it somewhere, it must be true. I do like a bit of magic (J.K. Rowling, C.S. Lewis), but I can't imagine myself ever liking Tolkien's tome. I don't know what it is. Probably the utter seriousness of the thing, as if it's as real as history and requires maps and songs and a whole set-up. It turns me off. I don't sense charm in it -- just utter seriousness about the validity of the elf and its entire, woe-begotten history, or something. I'd rather devote my time to actual history. That was my point in the beginning of this.)

However, if I ever read LoTR and like it, I will DEFINITELY tell you. lol

In response to your remarks on "don't be swayed by the opinionist", I thought this would give you a grin:

You recall how the 'left wingers' romped on me? Some said with pity that it was unfortunate that I was only interested in plot and character and background. Because, it seems, I missed all the political and economic implications inherent in the period of which I wrote. Others, in wrath, shouted that I seemed totally unaware of 'mass movements' (I've been wondering just what they were). Others that I was too small-minded to realize that there were sociological matters that I entirely overlooked.

Well. The English reviews have come in and, for the most part, are as good as to take my breath away. But one of them says, 'It is a pity that Miss Mitchell cannot handle character and plot as superbly as she handles mass movements.' Another, after a whacking good review, remarks that it is obvious Miss Mitchell is far more interested in the economic and sociological side of the period of which she writes than she is in mere story. Another announces shrewdly that I am, at heart, a sociologist. It seems that there is some slight disagreement.

- Margaret Mitchell

Dill Carver wrote:

Lord of the Rings is nothing like WW1 -- other than it is an armed conflict. I've read the Tolkien and have read dozens of non-fiction books upon the WW1. The comparison between Lord of the Rings and WW1 is so high-level and lazy (convenient and coincidental) that it infuriates me. You can just as easily say that Lord of the Rings is like any war, simply comparing a mass-armed conflict to a book about a mass-armed conflict is pathetic.  Tolkien is bound to have been influenced by WW1 - he lived through it.

Don't be swayed by opinionists corra; especially me. They'll tell you that 'The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe' is based upon the Bible or that Frankenstein is about God or the symbolism of Sherlock Holmes is defining Christianity... etc.  They wish!! They are just made up stories (the novels and the religions).

A fine point, Dillian. And thanks for the advice. x In lit classes we're struck dumb with interpretations: academic articles, professor opinion, different students' interpretations. None of them are the same. Some say to pay attention to what the author says he or she intended. Some say the author's intentions are beside the point, it's art for art's sake. Some suggest exploring the historical implications of a work. Some suggest a deep analysis of the choice of language and its psychological implications. We're even encouraged to read according to how a book feels, and interpret from that jumping point.

Discovering what we think is the journey of the lit student. Muddling through all these clashing opinions and developing our own form of interpretation. I usually assume a feminist stance that can be far off the mark the author intended with a work, BUT it might locate something the author didn't realize he or she was saying. (Frankenstein's creature is woman, by the way, disenchanted with the fate written for her by history! Har, just kidding. Or am I? It’s interesting to note that Mary Shelley’s stepsister Claire Clairmont defined herself as “the creature” of Lord Byron. And Mary Shelley's mother was a feminist and a half. I've read her Vindication of the Rights of Woman. Dear madam, we thank you.)

Anyway, I really did read the WWI interpretation of  The Lord of the Rings recently, but I haven't read enough about the trilogy to have any idea if that interpretation has any validity. All I know is that everyone in the book has big feet or pointy ears. My poorly stated point was that if the value of The Lord of the Rings lies in its contemplation of history (as has been suggested), I'd rather read history. I was just being glib. smile

Sorry, I wasn't taking the topic very seriously I guess. I do like my professor's suggestion that (some) science fiction is simply turning our own world inside-out so we can see it differently. And I really do wonder if there's some merit to that in fantasy literature. Not all of it, but some of it. That isn't me assuming the ideas of opinionists: it's just me being curious, taking different ideas into account. I would of course read the trilogy myself before forming a conclusion. (If I was going to read it. Which is not in my immediate plans, as I value my life.)

Here's where I read the WWI interpretation:

A few months ago at work, I read the back of an ARC (advanced reader copy) of a recent World War I era novel written by J.R.R. Tolkien's grandson, Simon Tolkien, called No Man's Land. He said his novel was inspired by his grandfather's time in the war, and he proposed that his grandfather was actually writing about World War One in The Lord of the Rings. I filed that perspective away because of the familial connection, but I didn't take it on as unalterable fact. It was literally a matter of me reading it quickly as I was peeking through the ARCs. That's as far as I've analyzed The Lord of the Rings. smile

Dill Carver wrote:

The magic within Dickens is the miracle of life and mysteries of the human condition. He doesn't need to cheat with a story by inventing imaginary creatures, wizards and fairies. Dickens is in touch with the real thing.

But Dickens wrote A Christmas Carol, which is all magic and utterly enchanting and brilliant. Creepy talking candles and hooded men with no eyes, eh? And what about The Tempest (sorcerers), Macbeth (witches), Hamlet (a ghost)?

Dill Carver wrote:

Within the novel Hawkins, is able to write from three alternating POV's and timelines. Rachel, the ex-wife, Anna, the current wife, and Megan, the main victim (although in truth they are all victims). (Classic Dickens 'A Tale of Two Cities formula BTW wink ) The dialogue is often inner-thought and the thrill of the novel is mainly the swirling psych as the same scenes are viewed or interpreted very differently from the three different POVs (I'd argue five POV's because Rachel has a sober POV and an inebriated POV and Megan has an in-situ POV and her retrospectively narrated diary POV) . The inner-thought, time-line switching and POV replay is extremely hard to get over in a movie format (unless of course the film is the 'English Patient').

For me, the transition of the story from the UK to the USA for the bigger demographic of movie audience and the 'flattened' storyline definitely lead to a case of the film not living up to the book.

This happened with The Time Traveler's Wife! I found that film quite disappointing. Great assessment of why the movie didn't work.

... the thrill of the novel is mainly the swirling psych as the same scenes are viewed or interpreted very differently from the three different POVs (I'd argue five POV's because Rachel has a sober POV and an inebriated POV and Megan has an in-situ POV and her retrospectively narrated diary POV) .

Yes!

Dill Carver wrote:

Truth is often stranger and more engaging than fiction... even when fiction includes talking dragons, invisible gnomes, wizards and singing swords.

Agreed. On the matter of invisible gnomes, I'm reading Jasper Fforde's The Eyre Affair. Sometimes I find it highly imaginative and engaging, and at other times I'm bored and want the main character to hurry up and get into Jane Eyre. I'm halfway through and we're still in a weird alternative past detective novel with people named "Jack.... Jack Shit." (That's how he introduces himself.)

If you don't know what it's about: a woman named Thursday Next is a literary detective who has to chase an evil guy named Hades (grim smirk) into the novel Jane Eyre. The whole world thinks Jane Eyre ended unhappily ever after (altered ending), and the literary detective's task seems to be to catch the bad guy and correct the novel's ending.  The problem is a guy named Mycroft has invented a way to get into books and change the story lines, so they have to have a whole detective agency to find forgeries (once an ending in literature is changed, no one realizes it was changed, because they all think that's the actual ending, so they need experts who can detect what appears to be a fraudulent plot line so they can go in and investigate. Ha ha! Ha! Makes me laugh. And revisionist historians are THE WORST. They can change the historical story line too, and no one realizes they've done it. So everyone is suspicious of history, or else completely passive about it.

So far it's a little odd and a little slow (I don't care about pretend detective novels.) But hopefully they'll end up in Jane Eyre soon. It's a series, of course. I think they go into Shakespeare next. Oh, and someone from a Dickens novel has just been pulled into the present and murdered. And there's a woman stuck in Wordsworth's "Daffodils" poem. Ha! There are worse things!

We were discussing science fiction in my lit class a couple days ago. Specifically --

Oh, wait. I was about to prattle. I shall conclude.

To quickly summarize, Monsieur Prof suggests that Octavia Butler uses the weird setting and aliens and such in her works to make what is natural in our own world look upside down and questionable. To make people think. I'm guessing that with excellent fantasy (wizards and such) that may be what's happening. However, no matter how many times I try, I cannot bring myself to read Tolkien. I believe he was writing in Lord of the Rings about World War I. I read that somewhere. My brother says I should read it. I prefer a Lincoln biography, or an actual World War One memoir (Testament of Youth.)

corra wrote:
Dill Carver wrote:

The Girl on the Train by Paula Hawkins

I had to read what the hype is all about.

I picked it up about a month ago for the same reason! Don't say what happens! Well, I suppose that defeats the purpose of this forum, but I'll avoid any spoilers, if you please. smile I had to return it to the library mostly unread because we have a limited time to borrow new releases at my library, and I'd barely had the time to make a dent before they claimed it back! It's on the rotation for another try soon...

Forgot to mention that I did get this one borrowed again and completed recently. I enjoyed it. smile

corra wrote:

Even this.

I just got "Ha!" before moving on.

HEY! lol

(Eh? Concise!)

Do you prefer Jeff Shaara's work to Michael Shaara's?

I'm reading Bound by Sally Cabot Gunning. I wish I was reading twenty books! Busy time of year. I keep having to talk myself out of reading. smile

I used to be so sharp but am definitely dumbing down with age.

I'm glad to see this. I didn't want to have to be the one to tell you.

Dill Carver wrote:

To be honest it doesn't bother me. I've never actually gotten to the end of anything you've ever written. lol

Ha! Jackass!! lol

Even this.

I just got "Ha!" before moving on.

(Don't you love how long I go on? I have been told this is not one of my more endearing qualities.) lol

Intellectual Trumps! THAT'S AN OXYMORON!

I haven't noticed that, Fr. I see people with books here and there, and being a reader I naturally gooseneck to find out what they're reading. Generally something interesting, and I jot down the title to look it up later. A guy yesterday was reading David Brooks The Road to Character. I wanted SO MUCH to harass him for his thoughts, but I was too shy. I was afraid he'd tell me to mind my own business. smile I almost always smile at people reading Rowling. They never look embarrassed. It's as if we have a secret. Now I'll be on the watch for the book slipped beneath the newspaper in the face of Dickens. It would be hilarious if we have that here. I've never seen it though.

What I was driving at is the intellectual embarrassment factor.

Goodness, not at all. Did you just meet me? I think I mentioned I was listening to the audio, so no one knew I was reading it, but if they did, the more judgy looks the better. That kind of thing makes me laugh.

I can't read print on the train though. I have motion sickness. It's about an hour and a half almost every day for me, so I decided to take on audio books to pass the time. If I read print while in motion I become really dizzy. So I didn't have to endure the gaze of the gentleman across the way, legs crossed at the knee perhaps, a newspaper folded in his lap and a cup of Joe in his fingers. Wearing a suit of grey, danger in his eyes, his sleek hair caught in fifty shades of divine. Pardon me, I digress.

I told people at work I was reading it. Naturally everyone there is a reader. They were so appalled they actually turned into Mount Rushmore before my eyes.

One time, just for fun, I told one of the guys at work that my favorite novel is Twilight. He's the biggest book snob I've ever met, so it amused me to disappoint him with my selection. I'm obtuse, Dill. I have no idea if that comes out via print between us. I can sing pretty well, but I never sing well for anyone. I always sing awful songs, off-key, just because it makes me laugh to make people think I think that's good singing, and watch them attempt to be polite about it. Someone judging my reading selection isn't going to faze me. I knew why I was reading it, and I had a sound reason for doing it. That's enough for me.

The erotic scenes would have embarrassed me though! I listened to the audio at work as well. (I stock shelves, which is a fairly brainless activity, so I listen to books while I work sometimes.) I lived in mortal fear that the cord would come unplugged on my phone, and some horrifically graphic scene would be blasted in front of my peers. Even though they knew I was reading it, I'd have been embarrassed. I was stunned and appalled by several of the scenes, and I'm sure it showed as I was listening.

We've got book snobs here in America. Some would consider reading Dickens elitist (dead white guy) and judge you for that. Some would just think "who does she think she is?" if they saw me with Dickens. I was wearing a t-shirt recently (my sister bought it for me) that said, "The person, be it gentleman or lady, who has not pleasure in a good novel must be intolerably stupid." (Jane Austen quote.) And that either won a laugh or a scowl. My boss when I was an English tutor in Cinci hated Dickens because he said he wrote for the word count and it shows. He was disgusted with all the books I claimed as favorites. (Jane Eyre, Jane Austen, Gone with the Wind.) He claimed Moby-Dick as a favorite and hated Rowling's work. I didn't find his list of favorites very original.

America as a whole? It varies based upon a person's priorities. We don't have just cut and dry intellectual snobbery here. We just have a lot of people with varied opinions: (you read too many elitist works, who do you think you are, you should be reading Caribbean works), (that book doesn't do science fiction justice, how do you not know that), (if 25% of your yearly reading isn't LGBTQ, you obviously don't care about the cause), (I don't read women authors because they have nothing to say that relates to my life), (I only read American works because nothing else is related to my life), (you only read the dead white guys, you have no actual concept of the world), (I like to read post-colonial works because the canon has overlooked them),  (if it's not in the canon it isn't real literature), (that book completely distorts history you clearly only read for entertainment), etc.

I'd say the majority don't care one way or the other and just wonder why you don't have the latest [insert whatever the latest thing is]. In Atlanta I see a lot of people reading interesting books, and they're generally extremely friendly when you mention your thoughts on the book. I've never (EVER) seen anyone here openly reading Fifty Shades. But as I mentioned, it FLEW off the shelves a couple years ago.

I think if I saw someone reading Fifty Shades on the train, I'd crinkle my nose and shake my head. WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THE WORLD? WHY WOULD YOU READ THAT? But if I asked them what they thought of it, and they said, "HOW did this thing sell so well? I'm astonished by how bad this is. I read it out of curiosity." We'd shake hands and have a conversation, and I would consider them intellectually sound for reading it. (If they said, "OH MY, MR. GREY IS SO DREAMY" I would slap them in the back of the head and then throw the book out the window.)

I do have opinions about what people are reading, and want to bully everyone into reading what I view to be the best books smile but I also love hearing what they actually enjoy, and why. I love asking people their favorite books as a break the ice thing. They almost always list something erudite (if they know I'm an English major), then a couple gentler titles, and then quietly, almost apologetically, say that they honestly love the Harry Potter series most of all. They'll avoid my eyes, and I will swallow them with a hug and say WE ARE NOW BEST FRIENDS AND THAT IS THAT. And that's often a big ice-breaker, because who doesn't love Rowling? (Except you.) tongue

I still really love this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QijbOCvunfU

I wasn't self- conscious. I actually read the entire novel in the nude. I figure if you can't beat them join them. I received some surprised looks on the train. I'm thinking of writing an entire series about my adventures.

I can see it. It looks incredible. The connection with your grandfather is really special.

I decided a Nook was well worth the money when I dropped Samuel Richardson's Clarissa on my face. (That book sounds excellent.)

corra wrote:

Eh?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/epi … e-sisters/

I'm not sure if you can see that in the UK. I can never access a UK film site.

It's a movie about the Bronte sisters!! I'm there tonight. x

I quite enjoyed this! Although it was difficult to hear them speaking sometimes. Apparently in the Victorian era it was quite the thing to mumble. And then shout. And then mumble. The volume key got a workout.

Oh, I never heard how you liked it in the end. I remember you telling me (briefly, in an email exchange) that you weren't enjoying it due to the flippant sort of humor throughout. But you hadn't finished it at that point.

Well, I might try it then! I'd written it off. wink

Eh?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/epi … e-sisters/

I'm not sure if you can see that in the UK. I can never access a UK film site.

It's a movie about the Bronte sisters!! I'm there tonight. x