926

(296 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Charles_F_Bell wrote:
vern wrote:

Or: A woman without; her man is nothing.

Ordinarily the two parts of semicolon phrasing can stand alone, and the above fails. The first half ends in a preposition, has no verb, and does not make sense.


Unless she is outside of the building looking for her imaginary Teutonic boyfriend?

A woman without? Herman is no thing.

Wow!

Apart from the surprise, I feel slightly fraudulent, the final draft being the sum of correction, editorial advice and opinion from within the accumulated reviews.

To be up there with Ceridwen and Vern too. That’s good company.

I enjoy the competitions here on tNBW, I feel they keep the site vibrant and provide incentive and inspiration to create upon subjects and within genres that you might not normally choose or encounter.

Good stuff!

Thanks.
Dill

Tirzabelle???
Have you been graffiti’ing in London? 

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr01/2013/7/1/17/enhanced-buzz-15422-1372715925-2.jpg


We are suffering a literary Banksy

I know that the definition of 'Literary Fiction' as a classification across genres has been done to death in the tNBW forums over the years; and like most subjects that are debated by amateur creative writers (we, generally being used to writing fiction; i.e. without the constraint of fact and actuality or a nod to the de facto or de jure), can differ in our interpretation and delineation of the classification. But I was wondering if there are different definitions of Literary Fiction in America and Europe. I suppose like Football as defined by the rest of the world (played with the feet, in its current form since 1581, codified and regulated in London in 1863) and the Gridiron game derived from Rugby (played with the hands) known as Football in North America.   

Or is it just this site?

Are writers actually aware of the differences between paraliterature (or genre fiction) and literature of the recognized canon, or do some simply claim their paraliterary work to be literary fiction simply because the term sounds swanky and highbrow to us amateurs?

930

(62 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

  "Round" itself has many meanings enough without adding another one.

True... and strange that I'd never thought of it before. Adverb and preposition. Is it the word with the most meanings?

Round = rotund or circular shape
Round = circumnavigate -- round the world
Round = encirclement  -- a ring
Crowd = Gather round
Come Round = regain consciousness
Come Round = Realign an idea or concept, a persuaded change of POV or stance.
Come Round my house on Saturday for a barbeque
Round of drinks
Round = Boxing. Periods of fight between breaks.
Round = a stage of a competition - progress to the next round
Round of golf - complete game
Round up the sheep
Round  = ammunition / bullet/ shell /shot /cartridge
Round = to describe movement.. Spun round or wheels go round
to round a bend or corner.
Round trip -- a return journey
A trip round New York - a tour
Round = proximity -- I love the greenery round here.
Describes activity - sitting round doing nothing
Describes intent -- when I get round to it.
locates --- looks round the room for an ashtray
Locates - I rang round all the camera shops until I found the flashgun I wanted
Rearrange - move the furniture round
Approximate time -- round ten O'clock

931

(62 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Memphis Trace wrote:
Dill Carver wrote:

Another quick North American lingo question, please.

Generally speaking, would an East Coast, North American, 'get round to doing something' or 'get around to doing it?' or are the two interchangeable?

Thanks!

I've heard both and something in-between that sounds almost like half an a. If your speaker were an enunciator, it probably would be best to have around. If he were the colonist equivalent of a cockney, I'd go for round. When I hear anyone but an enunciator, I believe they think they are saying around

Memphis

Thanks MT  ---   as long as they'd never say one, or the other, I'm safe

Cheers!

Tom Oldman wrote:

I don't think there is any way around it, Dill. It would be nice to be able to send PM's to anyone registered, but that can't happen under current restrictions.

~Tom

Thanks Tom, it looked that way but I was worried that I was missing a trick.

Appreciated!

I'm trying to leave a 'private text message' for a member who I've not got a specific 'connection' with.

Is this possible or is the 'public quickee message' the only option?

934

(62 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Another quick North American lingo question, please.

Generally speaking, would an East Coast, North American, 'get round to doing something' or 'get around to doing it?' or are the two interchangeable?

Thanks!

corra, I think that my dissection of ‘Tess’ will present spoilers to the plot. I’ve decided to hold the discussion until you’ve read the novel.
I must stress that there is absolutely no pressure for you to read the book (I wouldn’t force that drudgery upon anyone, least of all a friend). I’m happy to park this for a year or three or indefinitely.  Absolutely no worries!!   x   and smile x 10,000

I like;

Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil

A Confederacy of Dunces

For Whom the Bell Tolls

Children from Dark Houses  (From tNBW - by Knighthawk)

The greatest names for books, I'm talking 'Titles' not necessarily the content.

corra wrote:

Do I read clinically? Absolutely, especially when it comes to women's history. I've said somewhere else I read classics like primary documents, and I do. That's the way my brain works, and that's where my interest lies. When a good story can make me forget I'm reading, I know it will be a favorite. That hardly ever happens for me. It did with Gone with the Wind. It was only after several rereads that I was able to pull back and begin to analyze it in parts. My first couple reads were all story.

I'm not sure I expressed myself well above, if you think I question the integrity and validity of Gone with the Wind. I wasn't knocking it for a second. I think Mitchell knew exactly what she was doing. People still read Gone with the Wind and assume Mitchell was pining for the old days when she wrote it. In reality? She was a vibrant young woman (she wrote the novel in the 1920s) who had seen civilization as she knew it, with its Victorian morale and idealism, shattered by World War I and the Spanish influenza. She was raised by a grandmother and father who insisted she comport herself according to outdated standards of femininity grounded in the Victorian era. Meanwhile, she lived in a world where women chopped off their hair, cursed, got jobs interviewing prostitutes, and smoked cigarettes. Her mother was a suffragette who pressured her to be STRONG and REBELLIOUS while simultaneously insisting she fulfill her role as wife and mother. Her mother would have pointed out the incompatibility of the Southern legend of chivalry alongside the reality of "the rule of thumb" which went along with Southern marriages -- as long as your stick is no bigger than your thumb, it's perfectly legal to beat your wife. Southern chivalry suggested that women should be prized like angels and kept on a pedestal, where they were entirely useless. (Trapped, under the name of chivalry.) Mitchell is questioning the Old South illusion, and she does it BRILLIANTLY by borrowing the female is good / female is bad binary and turning it upside down.

When I say Scarlett wasn't a real woman of the Victorian era, I don't mean there weren't rebellious women who thought all sorts of brilliantly independent thoughts in the Victorian era. I mean that Scarlett was written by a woman who had seen the world transform after World War One. Scarlett is a brilliantly anachronistic character, I think. Sure, she starts out as indoctrinated into the social ideal as any other Victorian woman. (Surely many questioned it.) But a Victorian woman could never have written Scarlett as Mitchell wrote her.

I don't know if I'm making sense. What I mean is that you are comparing a diary written in the 1940s, and a novel published in 1936, to a novel written in 1891, and you seem to be suggesting that the prior two are more realistic, and therefore Hardy should have shut up and let a woman write Tess's story. I find that to be unrealistic thinking.

There's a scene in Jane Eyre where Jane has left Rochester & is knocking from door to door, pleading food. Bronte leaves the reactions of those who shut their doors to Jane unspoken, but the clear implication in the Victorian era would have been obvious: Jane is well-dressed and alone. This suggests that she has worked somewhere and has abandoned her post. ("Good") women didn't walk the streets alone, & it would have been foolish to abandon her post in such a society. Therefore, she must have been found in a precarious position with her "master" and been ejected from his employment. Such a woman was a "tainted" woman: alone, filth, fallen. Once she was found this way,  she had nowhere to turn. She was destitute. She would never work again.

This was an actual fact of female life: a single woman was wholly reliant upon her employer to be the moral ideal Victorian society expounded. But the reality? (Which I've researched in primary source material.) Often the man in power sexually assaulted the woman in his employ, until she wound up pregnant, when he expelled her from his home immediately. A single pregnant woman in the 1600s in England? Would be physically whipped for entering a parish seeking help: even if she was in the middle of giving birth. The parish didn't want the responsibility of paying fees for her baby, so they would whip her and send her on to the next parish. During labor, an unmarried woman would be tortured to provide the father's name. (By the midwives.) It was a horrific society for women, if they didn't meet the mold.

THIS is what (I believe) Hardy is supposed to be challenging in Tess. I have heard that the plot is a bit over the top, as Victorian novels often were: lots of twists and coincidences. (I think it was serialized, which would explain that.) But he is trying to challenge the idea that a woman who met with the fate I lay out above was FALLEN. He was illustrating the abhorrent way society crushed a lone woman who was unlucky enough to deal with a man who didn't fit into the Victorian illusion of the way the world "should" operate. (I read a bit about the novel because I find it difficult to discuss knowing nothing at all on the topic.)

There was this thing called the "cult of the domesticity" in the nineteenth century. That was the foundation of an acceptable woman's role: be desirable enough to get married, and then be the very best moral woman you can be, so that your husband has a gentle example to guide him, and you have an important position: mother to the future men of the world.

Before the Victorian era that cult didn't really exist yet. Lower and middle class women worked alongside their husbands in family businesses growing the food they would eat. When industrialization came along, women were winnowed out: men went on to work (rightly enough) and there was really nothing left for women to do, but watch over the children and be placed on moral pedestals.

In America, women entered the public sphere in waves for the first time in the nineteenth century, working in social roles to rid the world of prostitution, slavery (Northern women did this), and drink. This sort of public activity was generally approved because by this time in history, women were considered more moral than men: pure, devoted, etc. Any woman who didn't fall in line with ideal this was considered tainted. Not a real woman. That was the binary: the all or nothing philosophy that a woman was either THIS EXACT PICTURE OF FEMININITY or expendable, evil, a witch.

A woman was frowned upon for any other public work, however. Acting? On the same par as prostitution. Writing? Oh, my. Absolutely prideful. Sinful even. I mean, it could be done, but it was best to do it anonymously, and unless you said what the men wanted to hear, it was pretty unlikely your words would be preserved. (History belongs to the victors, after all.)

Woolf directly addresses this point when she is on the hunt for a record of female history in her essay. She can find a few queens, but really no one else. She isn't saying no one else existed: she is saying -- men (who were in charge of the annals of history) had not recorded the lives of real women. The only history that had been preserved was a few queens, and a giant collection of classic literature written mostly by men, which implied that in the whole of history, beginning with the witch-like Eve, there were only two versions of women: evil temptresses ("you don't want to be like that, ladies!"), or appropriate and acceptable females ("be like these gentle angels, and mind your place.") GIGANTIC AGENDA. There. And also likely ignorance.

I adore Anne Frank, Dill, but she wrote that diary a half-century after Hardy wrote his novel, in the privacy of her bedroom. It's not realistic to expect that a woman of Hardy's day could easily toss out a work in her own words. It definitely could happen, and probably did, but it wasn't easy. She had to find a way to get it through the publishing company, & guess who ran that? Which means she had to have it approved by a man, which means that she had to have it approved by someone courageous enough to go against the social standard, and risk his own reputation. Which means it was rare, and even then, it had to be read to matter.

You (seem) to fault Hardy for being a man & writing a silly melodrama about a woman when that story ought to have been told by a woman? Well, welcome to the feminist movement, my friend. That's the point: so many things ought to have been done by women, but unfortunately, they weren't. Luckily, those who did have a hold of the publishing machine sometimes tried to put in a word to spark some thinking. You have to remember that the audience Hardy was writing for at the time wasn't from the twenty-first century. It was accustomed to melodrama. Hemingway and World War One would shatter that. Melodrama was the language Hardy spoke, & he tried to use it for the right reason (I believe. Again, I'll have to read the novel to see for myself.)

You don't have to convince me of the integrity of Gone with the Wind. It's the most valid novel I've ever read. I think Mitchell knew exactly what she was doing with that illusive literary binary: Melanie Hamilton is the perfect, sweet, idealistic representation of the prized female enthroned within her domestic sphere. Literature by men in the Victorian era? Would have loved her! (Think Lucie Manette.) What happens to Melanie, & what happens to Scarlett? That's the point of Gone with the Wind, I think. When the pretty illusion is gone, when that pretend world of courtesy and chivalry falls away, what must a woman do to survive? Be the silly, simpering fool the men at the start of the novel want Scarlett to be? Or the shrewd woman who breaks the rules to survive? And does either Melanie or Scarlett live happily ever after? There is no place for either: they are pinched, suffocated, & destroyed whichever way they turn. Mitchell is brilliant because she snuffs out both of her females, but she complicates them, and implies that beyond their suffocation, they were real, they were courageous, & they lived.

Quite brilliant corra!! Enlightening and makes perfect sense. Thank you for taking the time to explain. 

I did have my tongue firmly in my cheek and was being facetious when I said; 'Could I ever have predicted the day that I'm trying the prove the validity and integrity of GWTW to you !!!'  A sure fire weapon, to challenge 'integrity' where GWTW is concerned. As much as I've learned from your reply (which is a stonking one!) I do feel very guilty that I've distracted you. Seriously.

The reader in me didn't like Tess of the d'Urbervilles, The novel. To me it reads like a list of shitty things that happen to her, wrapped in mind stretching prose; i.e.  “The drops of logic Tess had let fall into the sea of his enthusiasm served to chill its effervescence to stagnation.” See, she even pisses people off who are enamoured with her. How do you think she makes the unenthusiastic person feel?

I don't know what is wrong with me, but I've made a decision to download all of the 'Tess of the d'Urbervilles' study guides I can find, so as to cure my affliction (or at least understand what ails me about this novel). smile

I can only assume there is a good a story to follow because this novel has made for a (reportedly) good movie. The current book sales represent resurgence due to the imminent movie release.

To me, this opening is a poor literary offering for young adults and I would put this one down pretty quick whilst hoping that nobody saw me pick it up in the first place.

I have minor issues with the slack-jawed lingo and phrases like ‘a hot cup of coffee.’  This is a cup of hot coffee surely? But realise this is American and so probably colloquial but,… ‘They got a hot cup of coffee and a firm handshake when they got home.’

Got is such a dumbed down vocal expression. Surely, give this astronaut fellow some diction?

‘They received a cup of hot coffee and a firm handshake when they arrived home.’

The writing in this intro is all ‘telling’ which is justified by way of making a log or diary of some sort. But with this log talking to his colleagues from the mission, why would he be explaining to them about the mission and how they got there? It is a very weak vehicle to pump out condensed back-story and as a reader I feel like I’m being patronised and played. Tense is all over the place and mashup of past and present.

To me this reads as amateur written Y.A  - which is okay, if that’s the readers bag. But what baffles me is all this talk about agents and publishers expecting correct grammar, exacting standards of plot construction, sparkling prose etc.  If this opener was published on tNBW as an opening chapter it would receive a great deal of critique and advisory suggestions.

TirzahLaughs wrote:

See this opening wouldn't be one I would be one for me.  It lacks both emotion and connection for me.  The words from an intellectual point of view are nicely done but it just doesn't bounce for me.  But that's why there are so many books in the world....so we can all fall in love....


Absolutely. Imagine, art, food and goods or all nature etc. if there were only one human taste and preference!

A case in point: This is the opening of the novel that stands as a current top five best-seller in the UK book charts. 





I'm pretty much fucked.

That's my considered opinion.

Fucked.

Six days into what should be the greatest two months of my life, and it's turned into a nightmare.

I don't even know who'll read this. I guess someone will find it eventually. Maybe a hundred years from now.

For the record ... I didn't die on Sol 6. Certainly the rest of the crew thought I did, and I can't blame them. Maybe there'll be a day of national mourning for me, and my Wikipedia page will say, "Mark Watney is the only human being to have died on Mars." And it’ll be right, probably. 'Cause I'll surely die here. Just not on Sol 6 when everyone thinks I did.

Let’s see… where do I begin? The Ares Program. Mankind reaching out to Mars to send people to another planet for the very first time and expand the horizons of humanity blah, blah, blah. The Ares 1 crew did their thing and came back heroes. They got the parades and fame and love of the world.
Ares 2 did the same thing, in a different location on Mars. They got a firm handshake and a hot cup of coffee when they got home.

Ares 3. Well, that was my mission. Okay, not mine per se. Commander Lewis was in charge. I was just one of her crew. Actually, I was the very lowest ranked member of the crew. I would only be "in command" of the mission if I were the only remaining person. What do you know? I'm in command.

I wonder if this log will be recovered before the rest of the crew die of old age. I presume they got back to Earth all right. Guys, if you're reading this: It wasn't your fault. You did what you had to do. In your position I would have done the same thing. I don't blame you, and I'm glad you survived.

I guess I should explain how Mars missions work, for any layman who may be reading this. We got to Earth orbit the normal way through an ordinary ship to Hermes. All the Ares missions use Hermes to get to and from Mars. It's really big and cost a lot so NASA built only one.

Once we got to Hermes, four additional unmanned missions brought us fuel and supplies while we prepared for our trip. Once everything was a go, we set out for Mars. But not very fast. Gone are the days of heavy chemical fuel burns and trans-Mars injection orbits.

Hermes is powered by ion engines. They throw argon out the back of the ship really fast to get a tiny amount of acceleration. The thing is, it doesn't take much reactant mass, so a little argon (and a nuclear reactor to power things) let us accelerate constantly the whole way there. You'd be amazed at how fast you can get going with a tiny acceleration over a long time.

I could regale you with tales of how we had great fun on the trip, but I won't. I don't feel like reliving it right now. Suffice it to say we got to Mars 124 days later without strangling each other.

From there, we took the MDV (Mars descent vehicle) to the surface. The MDV is basically a big can with some light thrusters and parachutes attached. Its sole purpose is to get six humans from Mars orbit to the surface without killing any of them.

And now we come to the real trick of Mars exploration: having all of our shit there in advance.

A total of fourteen unmanned missions deposited everything we would need for surface operations. They tried their best to land all the supply vessels in the same general area, and did a reasonably good job. Supplies aren't nearly so fragile as humans and can hit the ground really hard. But they tend to bounce around a lot.

Naturally, they didn't send us to Mars until they'd confirmed that all the supplies had made it to the surface and their containers weren't breached. Start to finish, including supply missions, a Mars mission takes about three years. In fact, there were Ares 3 supplies en route to Mars while the Ares 2 crew were on their way home.

The most important piece of the advance supplies, of course, was the MAV. The Mars ascent vehicle. That was how we would get back to Hermes after surface operations were complete. The MAV was soft-landed (as opposed to the balloon bounce-fest the other supplies had). Of course, it was in constant communication with Houston and if there had been any problems with it, we would have passed by Mars and gone home without ever landing.

The MAV is pretty cool. Turns out, through a neat set of chemical reactions with the Martian atmosphere, for every kilogram of hydrogen you bring to Mars, you can make thirteen kilograms of fuel. It's a slow process, though. It takes twenty-four months to fill the tank. That's why they sent it long before we got here. You can imagine how disappointed I was when I discovered the MAV was gone.

“He thought as he stared at Will in the shadowy hall that he had never known such gallantry as the gallantry of Scarlett O'Hara going forth to conquer the world in her mother's velvet curtains and the tail feathers of a rooster.”

Binary or not, the execution is everything. I opened the book and fell upon a completely random page (766) to prove (or not)  my point.


corra wrote:

Did you just meet me? smile

Could I ever have predicted the day that I'm trying the prove the validity and integrity of GWTW to you !!!!  Har!dy smile smile

corra wrote:

Scarlett O'Hara was written by an incredibly lively woman from the 1920s who was using a modernist frame to critique the Victorian past. She sticks a woman who was all but a flapper into the 1860s & says, "What? It could happen." Scarlett is not your average woman of the Victorian era. She's a firestorm. You'll notice that in Gone with the Wind, Mitchell creates that female binary that was usually present in fiction written by men in the Victorian era and prior: Melanie is an angel, and Scarlett is a monster. She complicates the binary by saying, "Well, maybe the monster has some goodness in her. And maybe the angel can stand before her friends and neighbors and say, 'be good to my sister the monster, or you may leave my house.'" Maybe the woman Mitchell was trying to put before the world wasn't entirely Scarlett, or entirely Melanie, but something in between. She shatters the classic female binary in that novel, & probably sticks out her tongue right after.

See, that's what an education does for you; lets you apply the binary.

The dumb reader enjoys the story of their life, whilst the chemist within the bookworm sees through fiction into the formula.

Everything is a contrived formula from a single cell through DNA to a novel. No book is more binary than the Bible for its simple parable’lisation of good v evil, and do this, not that. Without a binary there is just chaos, an unintelligible mush.

I know nothing except monster Scarlett is a lionheart who fires passion and imagination in me and I love her for that whilst the fop Tess is a bleeding heart driven by suppressed emotions and I feel that I am being told to feel sorry for her in order to prove a point. The parable; the blunt lesson for today.

I am from the land of those few Queens; from Boudica, Matilda, Jane, Mary, Elizabeth I, Anne, Victoria through Elizabeth II and I'm proud of that. We've had a women Prime Minister the best bosses I've ever worked for are female. My personal belief is that a world run by women would be a better place. However for me, on a day to day basis there are just people. Good, bad and everything in between but there are just one species; people. Until it comes to bedtime... and that is a different matter.

Men dominate history and are nothing but for the women behind them. We all know that.

Virginia Woolf --Pah!  Hardy Binary that one. I say Virginia Hall if you want to locate women in history.

Virginia Hall and Andree Borrel, Nancy Wake,  Violette Reine, Cecile Pearl Witherington, Odette Hallowes, Diana Rowden, Vera Leigh; Lise de Baissac...

now we are talking women outside of any binary.

Add that darling woman child Ann Frank to that list too.

corra wrote:
Dill Carver wrote:

Within the context of thsi thread I think that the impressions that you are left with are more important than direct quotes. It's like a meal; whether you enjoyed it or not is one thing. The ingredients are another  smile

Well, I was barely able to supply plot. lol

Which is the best answer to the question, what are you not reading. smile

corra wrote:

(Sorry for the vague remarks! I don't have the books with me to supply details & am going off a shady memory a few months old.) smile

Within the context of thsi thread I think that the impressions that you are left with are more important than direct quotes. It's like a meal; whether you enjoyed it or not is one thing. The ingredients are another  smile

of Hardy;

corra wrote:

(I don't know why his treatment of women is supposed to be revolutionary because I've tried to avoid spoilers. I believe he writes with enormous sympathy for Tess, and that's why that book in particular is so loved.)

In my opinion women don’t need enormous sympathy; it is condescending and patronising. In truth within novels as in life itself, they need equality. Showing a woman debased in order to for us to feel sympathetic achieves little. It is a cheap emotive trick, like having your helpless little blind character mugged so we appreciate her plight. 

Does Scarlett O’Hara need the Hardy treatment lest don’t feel sympathy? No we don’t. With Scarlett we feel enormous admiration; for better or for worse she is a "force du jour". She lives in a time of female victims and unlike Tess, ‘victim’ is never a word you could use for Scarlett.


And in real life, the real words of the most victimised and courageous of young women who never once asks for sympathy and who rips my heart asunder.

Despite everything, I believe that people are really good at heart.

She wrote her own story in her own words and because of that they can never, ever give her the Hardy treatment and I’m sure they would have, if she hadnt.

You are getting to the bones of it and I see what you are saying.

corra wrote:

She's using repetition strategically. Right away we're in a scene.

She repeats the act of falling three times in close succession but she is describing a single fall and when we read, we see a single fall; we are not confused about how many times he fell.

There is the playwright and poet, there is also the cinematic director. To me the single act of falling is portrayed visually, spliced with cuts from three differnet camera angles.

The playwright for the scene, the poet for the prose and the cameraman for the visual. These three I must be, to bring my word to thee.

A fine line indeed. We are all looking to receive and impart that 'light bulb moment' when a concept is understood and blossoms. We’ve all had them and hopefully passed one or two along.

My procedure is to read (or already know) the reviewers own product before I take stock upon their advice.

“Stories are for eternity, when memory is erased, when there is nothing to remember except the story.”

The Things They Carried by Tim O'brien

Tess of the d'urbervilles.

I petered out and just lost interest. I was mortified that 'I didn't get' such a highly acclaimed and revered novel.

Do people just say they love it, to conform? Do they feel that they were expected to like it and so, do?

Or is it me? What am I missing?

What are you not reading right now?

Ever picked up a novel and couldn't see it through?

What put you off?