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njc wrote:Okay, this thread has been sidetracked and run, like the train in Fleming's Diamond's Are Forever, into a colliery. I'm starting a new one.
Virtually every thread which is fortunate enough to last more than a few comments takes turns and twists along the way. I can almost guarantee any new one will do the same at some point unless someone moderates by deleting unrelated items. I'm not posting this on the new thread so as not to speed the expected result. Take care. Vern
njc wrote:(Flagellation was normally administered on the back, not any ventral area, and is entirely different from the expression of grief or remorse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Fortuna , second verse, last couplet .)
True for the most part, but flagellation by definition doesn't restrict it to the back and as primarily a religious act is used for penance or remorse and since the Black Death was considered punishment from God could well be thought of as a means of mourning for the sins of the afflicted. In any case, it was used in this discussion merely as an example of the ancient practice of beating one's self (including women) for any who might question such a thing and might need some concrete evidence that such things did and do take place whether in a fantasy world or our own. Take care. Vern
njc wrote:Which is why I wrote the fourth item, 'or from the particular story'. But the point of the original post was that the author expected readers to know the tradition of the act BEFORE reading her story, and was surprised that a reviewer didn't.
None of this helps author Rhianon answer her question, nor does it address that the tradition =which she expects readers to know before reading her book= might not be exactly what she understands it to be, or might not actually be applicable to her character.
But if she's telling/showing the reader as stated that the character(s) rip their clothes and beat their breasts, then in this fantasy world the reader should understand that it is at least a somewhat normal practice under the circumstances -- or conversely it could be taken as a dramatic and unique expression of the mourner in question. If the author goes further to say that it was done in the tradition of whatever famous person from the past within the storyline as suggested, then it would serve to make the tradition a fact to be accepted within the fantasy world created. Or, barring further information, the reader should be able to assume whichever fits their traditional/non-traditional cup of tea so to speak. The author need not draw out a detailed historical basis for the actions when the reader can do that for themselves should they desire to paint the picture with a certain hue. Either letting the action stand alone or offering some small reference to it being tradition should serve the purpose with only a slight nuance in the way it should be perceived. That's the way I see it. Take care. Vern
njc wrote:Understood, BUT the reader's knowledge must come either from the Western Canon, from popular culture, from Fantasy 'tradition', or from the particular story. The first and last are most likely; I'm not aware of breast-beating in popular culture or mainline Fantasy.
Since the act in question differs somewhat for men and women and the Western Canon would probably have men as the actors--unlike the present work--it seems reasonable to question the background of the practice.
Moreover, I suspect that when the plural 'breasts' is used, it refers to (as patent language would say) a plurality of persons, and that when one person is involved, the singular 'breast' is used, indicating the general pectoral region and not the mammaries (or where they are undeveloped in men).
(Please excuse the clinical language. I'm trying not to be crude.)
I fail to see how Western Canon or any previous fantasy culture would preclude the practice as written for a new story unrelated to any norms we might be prejudiced toward. Should I wish to write a story where women cut off their nipples and made ear rings from them as an act of mourning, then there is nothing which should prevent me from doing so and having to justify it with any past norms or practices of Western Canon or different world fantasy would be totally unnecessary and thus not something to aspire to during the creative process imho. The story is fantasy and by definition can relate anything we can imagine without any real world precedent. Take care. Vern
njc wrote:If I am mistaken, PLEASE correct me, with actual references.
Not that it matters to the story in question, but just because you said PLEASE, you might try the link below which shows a portrait of a female between two male flagellants and the text further supports the practice by both men and women. Take care. Vern
http://history.ucsc.edu/undergraduate/u … _Beard.pdf
njc wrote:However, I think our oldest references are Biblical. Almost any other reference in the Western Canon will itself be referencing the Bible. And my point was that presumably-all the Western Canon references will be to men.
If I am mistaken, PLEASE correct me, with actual references.
Please see my edited PS from above message which was being posted as this one was. Take care. Vern
njc wrote:I was under the perhaps mistaken impression that Biblical breast-beating was a masculine expression. It would be somewhat different in effect for women, no?
It doesn't have to be "Biblical" for the purpose of the story; I (not the author) only used that as an example for showing it to be an ancient practice. I don't believe the story referenced by Rhiannon has a Biblical setting; that is why I suggested using a name from the story setting or let the reader get it from the context. Take care. Vern
Edited for PS: Since the work in question is fantasy, the practice doesn't have to conform to the norms of our historical past, only the one in the story presented.
Charles_F_Bell wrote:vern wrote:Most, if not everything written has elements of more than one genre which is probably a good thing for those with a sweet tooth since you can't bake a cake with a single ingredient. Take care. Vern
Much like mixing Christian Literature genre with LGBT with a dash of vampire mythopoeia.
Yes, sounds like a recipe for a good Fruitcake. Take care. Vern
Edited to add this link of the Fruitcake Lady: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evocKJg03VE
Perhaps you could pick a well known person from the past in your story (say similar to King David from the Bible who indeed ripped his clothes in mourning) and say something to the effect: "As was the custom of 'King David or whoever' the women ripped their clothes and beat their exposed breasts" or such, or you could make an off hand reference to the "flagellants" during the Black Death plague, OR you could accept that every reader is not going to know everything and just because someone didn't know that to be the case doesn't mean it requires an overt explanation. Most times things can be surmised, without our prior knowledge, from the context. Take care. Vern
Most, if not everything written has elements of more than one genre which is probably a good thing for those with a sweet tooth since you can't bake a cake with a single ingredient. Take care. Vern
Charles Bell wrote:By the way, given that 'fantasy' means : "imagination unrestricted by reality"
Charles Bell wrote:What do you guess has happened since the 17th century that has made writing fantasy impossible
According to the definition you provide, exactly how is writing fantasy impossible? Take care. Vern
Linda Lee wrote:Quick question about the contest...what if we know one of the judges?
Just my opinion, but I'd say it would be up to the judge to opt out of voting regarding your selection if they recognize your work under your pen name and they feel they could not be impartial in their input. Nothing else should change and you should otherwise be entitled to the same consideration as anyone else regardless of judge's decision to vote or refrain. Good luck with whatever you enter either way. Take care. Vern
Ceridwen wrote:For the first time since being on the site, I won't be able to submit something. However, I am now a full-time caregiver for my husband, with no spare time to write. It feels weird not having a submission. Good luck to everyone! I look forward to reading, at least!
You could submit something you've already done even if posted before and didn't win; many of the best things are only discovered after they've been around the block a time or two and viewed by new eyes -- and judges. Wishing you the best in your new role. Take care. Vern
rhiannon wrote:SolN wrote:Hi all,
After a pause in contests, we're excited to announce the 2016 Strongest Start Competition. We've assembled a unique set of prizes that provide the winner with the opportunity to improve their work, get in front of a publishers, and promote their book once it is published. As in the past, one of our goals with the competition is to provide members of the site with an incentive to improve their first three chapters.
To learn more, click the link below:
https://www.thenextbigwriter.com/contes … on+2016-14
Sol
Hi Sol. Loving the new format for TNBW. One question about the contest. You say submit the first 3 chapters. How many words would be the limit? Thanks in advance for answering me.
I don't believe there is a limit now other than the cost and reader aversion to the length. I just did a test with nearly 11,000 words and it was accepted. Only cost 33 plus points, so I declined, lol. Take care. Vern
Edited for PS: Just to clarify, that was 11,000 words for one chapter.
I would say go ahead and make those millions if possible, then you can buy a truck load of soapboxes to stand on; until then the footing is more like standing on soap bubbles. Take care. Vern
Four days and counting; first one in wins, lol. Take care. Vern
The way all good Easter-egg hunts should end. Congrats. Take care. Vern
That's funny; exactly what I was thinking.
Simon Morris wrote:I got a connection request from Larraneise and went to the page. No writing, no posts, no comments. I simply deleted the request. Sometimes, a little detective work saves a lot of aggravation. Behind the best fiction is research of FACTS.
I also checked her profile page and saw nothing and decided to wait to see if anything would be posted before replying. BTW, many legitimate new members have no portfolio or comments at first. So all the research didn't matter as she was deleted before the real "FACTS" could be ascertained; therefore, the connection request still exists on my home page despite the research until Sol resolves it as promised. Take care. Vern
PS: Faux connection request gone; thanks Sol.
njc wrote:Only to your reputation 
LOL
Posts found: 926 to 950 of 1,426
