Hey, GP. I dunno. I'm basically trying to rework old material in a different direction. I just can't get over the hump it seems. I thought looking directly at the Sun might grant me supernaturally awesome literary powers, but... 
Anyway, it's nice of you to check in. Now lemme check you out!
Cheers
John
Here's an idea, just an idea, but hows about the next contest be about speech-writing? (Lord knows our President would do well to stick to the teleprompter, right?) Fictional of course. Meaning your treatise could be patterned after the Gettysburg Address or Marc Antony or I Have A Dream or... Perhaps it's coming from the mayoral candidate of a small town (or big city) giving a political speech in the now, the ancient past, or the near future. Or it could be an Oscar/Grammy/Tony acceptance speech. Or a coach's speech to the team before the big game. Or a Best Man's wedding toast. Or... Well, y'all get the picture. Pick an occasion/subject and then orate your balls off!
Personally, I was kinda inspired by Conor McGregor's ringside interview tonight. After he lost the big fight to Floyd Mayweather. His words were extemporaneous, articulate, and gracious in defeat, yet not defeatist. If that makes any sense. Anyway... Compose a 3000 word long speech. That's my idea. Would that be a good contest? Or am I just full of hot air?
Cheers
John
You wanna know what I would appreciate, Rachel? Something completely different. Something OUTSIDE of Rhiannon's realm. Just to see what you can tackle as a writer. As an exercise. Short story time...
I'm gonna give you a limited choice of protagonist --either a blue-collar forklift driver, a bourgie manicurist, or a teenaged ne'er do well -- who has just seen something he/she can't quite explain or come to grips with. Maybe he/she saw a ghost or a monster or maybe the mayor of a small town having raunchy sex with the mayor of the next town over, or... I dunno. Whatever.
Choose, woman!
And then go ahead and give me similar parameters to work/struggle with. Let's tax our imaginations and pump some literary iron. For Rhiannon/Bambini's sake. Know what I mean?
Or not. Life is short after all.
Cheers
John
Nice.
That was my point. I begrudgingly used the male dignity to dignify ALL of our dignities. Because it's easier. Furthermore, having tits is NOT courageous. Case in point: My silly fat thirteen year old nephew has tits and he's basically a titmouse. Which, of course, makes your point, Rachel. Because being born with balls doesn't necessarily make a man ballsy. But the nomenclature is understood, I think. Know what I'm saying?
Brosna was big. Big time in the beginning. Seriously.
Sherman Law and Flowing Pencil were sources of great encouragement.
Jeni Decker and Kat Nove were a pair to be reckoned with.
GPyrenees of course.
Dagnee, oh, Dagnee. She's a killer queen. Nothing less than instrumental in my origin story and yet... We seem to have fallen outta favor with one another lately. As lovers often do.
And, lest we forget Dagnee's mortal enemy...
Well, I won't mention her by name but it started with Sharon. As my own nemesis's name started with Sonny. God rest and bless his hyper-critical soul.
It's actually kinda sad that I don't remember EVERYBODY who touched me one way or another. There were so many. Especially this one dude, early on, that for the life of me I can't recall his name but he was a badass enabler. Laughing out loud at everything I wrote. I remember SIDEMAN (amongst many others) from way back, but we never really connected for whatever reason. What I must acknowledge is that MOST of the memorable members I interacted with were female. Period.
Now is that because I happen to be a cocksure and sure-footed literary pimp? Or is it because it's just a fact of writing life that the majority of fictioneers working today happen to belong to the "weaker" gender persuasion?
I dunno. Whatever and either way, nothing gave me more pleasure back in those early days than engaging in sexist battles. Disingenuous and inane as they were. Just for the sake of argument. To put it simply, women are funner to talk to and bounce ideas off of. Or, in layman's terms... Tease.
In the end, I think this thread is (or oughta be) a bit of a love letter to TNBW. Even if nary one of us has actually become THE NEXT BIG WRITER yet. I'm reminded of The Beatles song: IN MY LIFE. Check and reckon the lyrics for yourself and see if you can relate them to your experience on TNBW. And then let's give Sol a great big digital hug and a sloppy kiss for providing us all a place to gain perspective.
Cheers
John
Dagnee said: "Is there really in any virtue in tearing apart someone's work, being sarcastic, snarky and disrespectful just because you C-A-N?"
Dagnee has a point. I truly don't think anyone meant to be genuinely cruel or disrespectful, but (as Dill Carver pointed out) the old site WAS kinda/sorta rife with snark and sarcasm. Especially on the forums. Where I myself ran wild for a while. It was a bit like how the forum of Times Square used to be rife with prostitution and general seediness before it became an antiseptic Disneyland. Some folks (myself included) are actually nostalgic for that dangerous flavor. To a point, that is. The point Dagnee makes. It's probably for the best that our correspondence here on TNBW never gets too personal or political.
Then again, I also like Gacela's story. Not just because she glorifies John Hamler (although that's always cool) but because she realized that exercising her personal right to defend her writing (with eloquent rhetoric) can actually be an empowering writing exercise. I know that's a mouthful, but y'all know what I mean. I guess I'm pretty cynical by nature but I'm honestly not trying to test anyone's sense of irony or perspective or perseverance when I give a harsh review. Just trying to be honest. And maybe a little sarcastic. The sarcasm is for me, though. It helps to alleviate the stress and strain of having to tell somebody that --in MY opinion-- their writing stinks. Of course that brings us back full circle to the title of this thread: IF YOU CAN'T SAY SOMETHING NICE...
Words of love maybe, but luckily, and for the sake of humanity, NOT words of wisdom. Nor words to live by. All you gotta do is look at President Trump's equivocating words on Charlottesville last week. Which speaks to playing the "victim card" as Dill put it, even when the "victim" in that case holds all the power. Especially the power to change his or her rhetoric for the greater good. But that's a whole 'nother kettle of rotten fish me and Dill might have argued about. On the old site, that is.
In closing, and in the closing words of the great Billy Joel: "Don't take no shit offa nobody." If you're gonna be a wannabe writer, and even if some (or most of you good people) can't quite relate biologically: Show some Balls. Brass balls, for that matter. And wear a jock-strapping cup to protect those precious balls of yours. Because it's a rough jungle out there. Rightly, if not righteously, so.
Cheers
John
P.S. This is kinda fun. Kinda like the old forum used to be. Where I essentially get to bloviate and masturbate at the expense of actually being productive as a writer.
"Some people have nothing to offer in a review and have no idea what you are trying to say when you write and will lack the talent to realize their opinion is not objective analysis. Some people will have incredible insight and lack the ability to present it gently. There's a difference."
Amen. Corra said that shit and her shit is supercool. And possibly slurpable, too. Something to keep in mind, anyway. Look, any sane person walking the Earth knows how to straddle the line between being saccharine and severe when dealing with strangers. Strangers on a train, in a plane, at a PTA meeting, or this muthafuckin digital writer's workshop. As writers (observers, if you will) we oughta know better than anyone how to relate to the variety of experiences and styles out there. Yet, while reading a piece of prose or poetry and then composing a criticism, we still gotta adhere to certain criteria. First is the established criteria laid bare by centuries of storytelling craft and THEN... Well, then the personal effect it has on us. US as imperfect readers who have little to no idea where you're coming from.
Being a critic comes with a certain responsibility, yes, but that responsibility doesn't extend to flattery for flattery's sake. Hell, I've been trolling this website since near the beginnings. Therefore, I've been tempted more than once to go for the nether-regions, the jugular. The only thing keeps stopping me from becoming Simon Cowell's bowels at times is my own self-awareness. But self-awareness is tricky and getting there is even trickier. Funny thing is, you need other people to help get you to a state of self-awareness. I'm still not there. You know why? Because I'm still relatively shy. As Sartre said: HELL is OTHER PEOPLE. You really can't know who to trust, or believe, or please (or if it's even in your bestest interest to try and please or believe anybody) because writing is such a solemn and personal endeavor in the first place. Even when what you're writing is essentially silly.
OTHER PEOPLE will ALWAYS be the bane of said endeavor, is what I'm saying.
Furthermore, what I'm trying to say is... Well, what Corra already kinda said. Instead of fishing for compliments and encouragement, be grateful for the harsh criticisms and may the castigations spur you on. With a grain of salt, of course. Because, like I said: HELL IS OTHER PEOPLE.
"Fuck John Hamler's opinion! Who the hell is this guy trying to rewrite my opening sentence, anyway? I looked him up and I don't like the way he writes. The man stinks. Even when I hold his ass out the window."
And that would be a perfectly acceptable response to my venomous review. Just don't ask me to sugarcoat my poisoned pills. If you know what I mean.
Cheers
John
Devil's Advocate. I dunno if I really believe any of that shit.
Yeah, but... This is a bit of pretzel logic, if you will. Pleasantries aside, lemme play Devil's Advocate here and say: This is why we bleeding-heart liberals get called snowflakes. It's why we lost the American Presidency to a troll doll. Sometimes your writing stinks and there's no easy way for me to say it. Saying nothing at all might be "nicer" but...
Criticism doesn't always need to be constructive. And arrogance can be a virtue. Long as it's honest and not steeped in jealousy or whatever the fuck. Honesty TRUMPS all. As long as we bear in mind that the honesty is particular. To a particular audience member. Instead of sifting thru polite reviews, looking for patterns of equivocating criticism, wouldn't it serve us all better to be TOLD how bad we are? To ask a reviewer to be specific and magnanimous about our shittiness is probably asking too much. I know damn well, when I'm reviewing, that I resort to sarcasm and derision and thinly-veiled contempt at times. I think there's a series of televised commercials out there right now, espousing the same thing. That thing being: What people are REALLY thinking when they look at you and your work/situation.
Therefore, I take umbrage when someone complains about harsh criticism. It all comes down to writing for yourself. Writing to satisfy yourself. First and foremost. If the consensus returns a damning verdict? Well, then you know that being yourself ain't good enough to satisfy. So become someone else then. That's the beauty of fiction. You can be whoever you think they want you to be. And if that fails, you can always be a bartender. Everyone loves a bartender. Especially frustrated writers.
Cheers
John
Good. I thought I was going crazy all alone. Although there might be an HBO hacker out there who thinks our manuscripts are worth pirating. That would be flattering, actually.
Funny. Wanda's friend from Alaska is visiting us right now with her two itty bitty baby girls. We're gonna go to the zoo today, tease the monkeys.
Sadly, thermonuclear war is inevitable. Unavoidable. Whether by Dr. Strangelove mistake or Insane Clown Posse of communists. We'll see an eclipse next week, followed by a mushroom cloud.
Nah. I'm gonna stay optimistic.
Cheers
Indeed. You gotta write for yourself first and foremost. It's gotta make sense to you before it can begin to make sense to me and others. I think of children. Not because I'm a weirdo, not because I'm writing anything close to children's lit, but because I would like to simultaneously tax and entertain and MAKE SENSE to the child-like mind. Because children are forced to read and therefore wax their imaginations before giving it all up in order to make money and star in commercials. Rhiannon the Nude, being nude and accursed, is a taxing concept. With all sorts of wonderful philosophical implications. Resist the tendency to go sexual with that concept right away, Rachel. That's my advice. Because I think there's so much religious/social/economical/political material there to plumb. And, of course, some hot body-slapping action. From time to time and within reason.
Cheers
John
Well, I'm perfectly confused. No big surprise. I'm kinda in the same boat, Rachel. I think. I've got epic tons of material, in the form of connected vignettes, but I haven't figured out how to interlock it all in order yet. I've no gift for plotting. For some reason I've got a problem writing chronologically, you see. The whole David Copperfield thing? I find it boring. But than again, it's asking a lot of the reader to follow along when I'm jumping around so much. That's the rub.
You rubbed me the right way with the first book I read. Which is why I'm so devoted to you as an author, Rachel. But I'm not sure if the first book I read is the first book I shoulda read. Or the first story you shoulda told. If that makes any sense. I gotta be honest and tell you that THE SWORD OF RHIANNON has been wearing me down a bit. I hate that I keep referencing GOT, but... What was so effective about GRRM's approach to a sprawling epic (and YOUR approach in the first book) is that he alternated POV's and was thusly able to spread the exposition/backstory rather seamlessly. There's no such thing as a perfect narrative, of course, but... Well, now my brain hurts just thinking about it. Writing a novel is hard. Hard as fuckall.
Congratulations on garnering the interest of a publisher, though. Let's face it. It's their JOB to steer you straighter than I ever could.
Did you just ruin the thread, Rhia? Jeez!!
Salty smelly yellow urine.
How about: "Nudity Becomes Rhiannon"? You know, like "Mourning Becomes Electra."
Nah.
YES! In fact, my walking/talking/working mantra is: FUGGHEDABOUDIT, NOBODY CARES! So I feel your pain, M.L.
In other words, I'm gonna rush right over and read your story with a big relatable grin on my stupid/useless face.
Cheers
John
WSIWYG girl?
What You See Is What You Get girl?
I'm pretty sure I got that right. But anyway... It still borders on pornographic. I guess I want your protagonist to be less sexually objectified and more objectively sexual. Meaning she uses her sex appeal as a means to realize her objective. Or what do I know? Maybe she doesn't care. Maybe she just wants pleasure. And to have her subjects, as queen, to experience her pleasures. Maybe that's her goal. Gotta have a philosophy in place, is what I'm saying. Is she pleasuring the populace as an artist, a politician, or as a token? Trump, for instance, is a token politician. Upon which we (or the electoral lot of us, that is) have projected our baser basic instincts.
I don't mean to be harsh, Rhia. Only honest. Let's face it: Rhiannon's liaisons are wonderful and tittilating and fulfill certain fantasies, but... Rhiannon herself doesn't always consider them philosophically. She just goes with the flow. She winds up in a situation (being a betrothed bride, and then an adulteress, and then a full-fledged whore, and then a vigilante fugitive, and then finally queen of her people) and goes with it. Whereas, most successful protagonists command the flow. If you catch my meaning.
Then again, I don't really know what I'm talking about. I guess I just see you as a great writer with a less-than-great story to tell. Kinda all over the place, is what I'm saying. I guess I'm seeing MYself, in other words. In TOO MANY words, that is. Easy for me to say. Harder for me to do as I say.
But that's why we're toiling here, on TNBW, instead of being published authors. I guess. Whatever. I guess I'm feeling cyincal at the moment. In the sense that being cynical is a healthy thing to be. To some extent. I wanna know if you really think you're ready for prime-time. Or if you're like me... Farting around, writing prose, because it's a better alternative than NOT writing at all. It's come up or shut up time, Rhia. Grab this character, by both of her exposed breasts, and make her delicious. Make her more than a mere spectacle. How? I dunno. But I'll know it when I read it.
Cheers
John
I love how you sum Rhiannon up, Rhia. It's the sum of all irrationality! It also shows that you are deliberate in delivering her story sans deliberation. If that makes any sense. Whether she's sympathetic or not is up to the reader, I think. I deliberately draw my characters with a distinct lack of empathy, too. Presenting them at face value frees them up to be rude and crude (and therefore interesting, like TRUMP) and lets the reader deliberate their morals and choices and vote yea or nay. Like most of the country, I'm fascinated by our sexist, racist, shameless, flawed but fabulous, fearless leader. We know it's wrong. We know that, as a nation, we did a bad bad thing. We know it's a total car crash dumpster fire and yet... We can't look away. I see Queen Rhiannon in the same light, kinda/sorta. So when I complain about the gratuitous sex or whatever, that's just me reacting and interacting with what I'm reading. Which means I'm reading. Which is a good thing, dammit!
Cheers
P.S. Okay. I haven't gotten far enough in your story yet but, I see you've been watching Game Of Thrones. LittleFinger's army showing up at Winterfell is just like Gandalf barreling down the ridge at Helm's Deep. Nick of time baloney, of course. What might work for you is to have the reinforcements arrive AFTER Rhiannon's Pyrrhic victory. That way she can turn around and say "Thanks for nuttin', asshead!" as she laments the cost in blood and treasure. With her dragons, The Queen of Dragons also has aerial supremacy (she basically has the equivalent of an atomic bomb/missile arsenal in GOT terms) but we also know that the other factions (humans/terrans, ice zombies, and seaworthy pirates) still have some tricks up their sleeves.
Yeah, I know... I'm really geeking out. GOT starts again on Sunday!
Discussion coming on:
Kevin Spacey breaks the Wall in that show he's on where he plays the president. Goodfellas did it a little bit with Ray Liotta. It's a reasonable thing to do, in my opinion. In my opinion, everything is reasonable and fair game, though. I like gimmicks and cliches. As long as they're used sparingly, I think they give the reader something to relate to. I know I break the wall myself sometimes, but then again.... What do I know? I haven't noticed it so far in the Rhiannon saga, but maybe I ain't got that far yet. Like Kdot says, go all the way or not at all. But then again, I say: as long as you confine such theatrics to a chapter or a certain character's POV it's cool. More than cool, it might even elevate the overall narrative. Try any and everything. What have you got to lose? Then again and again... these discussions can go on and on...
You wanna discuss the unpleasantries, GP?
HI, Corra. You said your remarks were open to speculation, so... YOU asked for it. I dunno why, but I gotta weigh in here. SHANE is a masterpiece. Second only to THE SEARCHERS and maybe RIO BRAVO and LONESOME DOVE as bestest Western of all times. I know you were being facetious, but... DANCES WITH WOLVES doesn't even crack the top fifty. You positively gotta watch THE UNFORGIVEN, TRUE GRIT, and THE WILD BUNCH. Not to mention 3:10 TO YUMA, THE HATEFUL EIGHT, and THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES. Okay, that's enough. See you on the Ponderosa.
Cheers
John
You know what? I think I'll write a tribute article for this fucking disappointment. There's no better step of grief like anger. He actually wrote a song called LIKE SUICIDE that I consider one of his best and... Fuckit....!
By the way, SOUNDGARDEN is an actual art installation here in Seattle. It's what he named the band after. I'm not going to the vigil, but I oughta.
Yeah. I'm devastated. The whole Seattle area is up in arms and disgustipated and they're gonna turn the space needle off in about twenty minutes as a tribute. I actually met the man once. We were both very drunk, I played drums in front of him and embarrassed myself, I don't remember much else. Didn't I turn you on to his music, GP? Didn't you go to see him live? It's been a long time GP and it's a sad day. He was arguably the most talented and most important musician the city of Seattle ever produced (yes, more important than Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain, and the Wilson Sisters of Heart) and his song OUTSHINED absolutely defined the "Grunge" genre. That voice! To say I'm "Feeling Minnesota" is an understatement.
John
The best ideas come while driving. For your situation ... maybe it will help to learn shorthand. If you can write 130 wpm, you might find time to jot it down ... and nobody else will know what you wrote.
Personally (not to get personal, mind you) but John Hamler's bestest ideas come while showering. Whilst soaping and caressing and exploring every slickened crevice of Hamler's magnificent bod. If someone could just come up with a waterproof iPhone app... Or a doodad that could transcribe my shower thoughts...
Well, what are y'all waiting for?
