I agree, Norm.  You first write the story before you consider any cuts (or expansions for that matter).  But then I have the 'amanuensis to the M/C' approach.  My MC tells me the story, and I write it down.  Not sure how CJ writes--whether it's the intuitive way, the way I just describe, or the 50-page outline approach where you have the whole story written before you start typing.

627

(8 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

This is a serious group, very friendly, with people trying to help people.  Welcome!

Karin:  As far as pulling your story, leaving your faithful reviewers bereft, I'll just whisper three little words in your ear:  "Give complementary copies."  lol

629

(7 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Congrats!!!

I wouldn't change your scenes, as you clearly have choices.  Yes, if you were like Heinlein or Micky Spillane, just home from the war, no G.I. Bill, the rent is due, write for the mass audience and get paid.  But you're not in that situation.  You have a publisher, and you haven't asked any of us to go kill a deer for you, so you are not starving. So write the way you want the scene to be.  You clearly liked it hot, as you wrote it that way.  So my advice is the Scarlet Rose line.

631

(31 replies, posted in Close friends)

Isn't it great that we're talking about these characters as if they are real?  One of the highest compliments you can pay a writer.

632

(31 replies, posted in Close friends)

Suin wrote:

no, no, that won't possibly work. Don't you know he eats black-olive pizza everyday after hearing about Melissa's experience with caustic soda?

+when I saw GOT in your comment I had to stop reading as I'm still on Season 3. (It's taking me a long time to get over the red wedding).

Should have thought of that, but the TV series is now on its own, as the last season was the last book that George RR Martin wrote.  He might have a completely different ending in mind.  The Red Wedding was rough, I admit.  I'll edit the remark.

Oh, and while you're at it, go to the website which has a rap/battle betwen George R.R. Martin and J.R.R. Tolkein.  It is hilarious.

I'll check it out.  I know that Ayn Rand took 10 years to write Atlas Shrugged (not counting the complete, detailed, almost line by line outline she began with).  Rex Stout could crank out a Nero Wolf story in a weekend.

634

(1 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Send you an email.

635

(31 replies, posted in Close friends)

Suin wrote:

Hugh hadn't actually done anything explicitly wrong apart from announcing the pregnancy and engagement to everyone, while Jack had cheated on Claire with Alicia.

You're playing with a trope, and thus you have to be careful.  If Hugh doesn't end up a bad guy, you will have a whole lot of 'splaining to do.  Maybe not as much as the screen writers of GOT will have if in the next season.  But it will still be uncomfortable.  I think the only twist about Hugh that would not make for a complete mess (perhaps a salvageable one) is--is he a drug dealer or MI6?  Or maybe, he's a woman trapped in a man's body.  He can be made good, but in an anti-hero sort of way is what I'm getting at.

And we are all waiting, with baited breath, for the happy ending.  (Which again could be twisty. Hugh, being a CIA agent on the trail of Norm's Big Shiny Thing, refuses to let her go with him, but, after resuming her ballet career, Sarah finds that Sergey is ex-KGB, and he and Hugh meet a kindly old man, who, after getting tired of playing host to dead people, starts an international anti-terrorist group)...No?

C.J.  This group isn't the only one in existence.  It's good you helped your friend.  And you often have to do things like marathon reading, if it's close to publication.  I'm reviewing the 3rd book in a series for one member of TNBW, although it isn't stand alone, because he's writing this one.  The others are done, and I want to be of most help to him.  Carry on!  Rhia

Suin wrote:

All I can say is that if I was cold and had the ability to turn into a horse, I would do it and find a way to sit on a dragon as a horse. It sounds much more comfortable than being a naked girl in the snow!
If she can't do this, you might want to explain why. eg. dragons and horses aren't friends!

I imply that the Western Tribes don't really cotton to sorcery, so I'll explain it.  Dragons may be jealous of horses (they both provide elfins with rides), but no hostility as far as I know (I'll ask Rhiannon the next time she narrates to me.)  But maybe Yttrbr mother had a bad experience with one. lol

638

(31 replies, posted in Close friends)

I've been reading the interchange here, while waking up.  I agree with the opinion that Sarah needs more internal dialogue.  You are brilliant at interpersonal interaction scenes, Suin.  You need to transfer that talent to intrapersonal scenes.  I think Sheriff Norm was saying that he would hate Sarah to end up with Hugh.  We all would.  I also hear him referring to the Aristotelian principle that fiction is higher than history as it tells how things ought to be, and history tells people how things are.  I once had an argument with a student over Battlestar Galectica--the new version.  There was a scene where Adama simply abandoned a fleet of survivors who only had sub-light spacecraft.  My student said, "But that is realistic."  Aside from the irony of calling a scene realisitc in a story about evil robots, hyper-drive, and humans originating on another star system, with Earth being a myth, I told him the same thing:  fiction ought to be better.  However, it needs to be steeped in conflict, human drama, and the messes we get ourselves in.  If Sarah, at the end of the novel, stays with Hugh, either have him become a priest, or give her a pill to end it painlessly.  OK? lol

639

(31 replies, posted in Close friends)

Suin wrote:

Sarah isn't supposed to be a one dimensional character that can be put into a box. Do you know anyone who is strong or weak in real life? I don't! People who appear strong can become weak in other situations and vice versa. People are surprising because they're always changing. Sarah is a person in conflict - she's determined to be a ballerina but it would break her heart to let down her family or friends so she's caught in the middle.

I agree with this.  "Even heros have the right to bleed."  And this is so realistic to the problems young women face in our world.  Noe everyone is as supportive of young women's ambitions as Bill Clinton is.  "You want to be President, dear?  Let me go first, so you can learn from my mistakes." lol

640

(6 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

jack the knife wrote:

The publisher has informed me the release date for my novel, When the Reaper Comes, will be Nov. 4. I'll leave it up on site until then for those who want to finish it for free. smile

Jack--Congratulations.  Be sure to pass out the cigars!

Charles:  I disagree that you need a narrative as a prologue to what is happening in a fantasy or science fiction, unless you define the genres in such a way as, indeed, you have to have such a narration. You say that genres that don't need such an introduction aren't really outside of human experience.  OK, fine, but then we begin to asked questions like--is it really fantasy or SF?  I'm not sure what the point of that is, unless you're dealing with an editor who only publishes such things, and has a specific definition in mind ("Can't have robots.  We already have robots.  So it's not science fiction.")  I think the best of the F/SF genre does take human experience and puts it in a new context.  I feel a little defensive here, but I really don't care what my stories are called.  Indeed, the first turns on jealousy, intrigue, and reactions to betrayal and coming down in the world.  If that means it's not fantasy, that's fine.  I deliberately limit the technology (with a few exceptions like anti-gravity) to which will most likely be achieved by the end of this century.  Thus, "warp drive" isn't science fiction by your definition.  The magic is limited to the Mabinogion, for the most part, but employes other tropes, like Gypsy curses.  The gypsy in Stephen King's Thinner is similarly modelled:  a curse to nakedness is parallel to a curse to thinness. Involuntary nudity is a kind of disability, which isn't beyond human experience.  A fight for the throne, a civil war, and neo-colonial style imperialism isn't either. 

I agree with Fred Miller's definition of science fiction vs. fantasy.  SF is in an orderly universe, governed by understandable natural laws.  Fantasy isn't.  It is a squishier context, but a world where there is sorcery, one has to be careful not to run afoul of witches, mind manipulation, and one that has medieval knights, castles, and context surely counts.  If not, then I'm content with calling it "adventure," "historical romance," or just WTF (which is why I contemplate self-publication).  But I've read stories labeled "fantasy" by conventional publishers (like Tor) that take place in 1st person or limited 3rd person). 

Star Trek wasn't a critical or popular success because the critics and the sponsoring network hadn't done proper democraphics.  The year NBC canceled it, they did run such a demographic analysis, and although ST: TOS didn't have the 30% of the viewing audience they were looking for, the engineers, professionals, and college graduates who watched it bought an awful lot of really big ticket items.  So they lost money when they canceled it.  Kirk, to my memory, never explained what the Federation was, who Klingons were, or went iinto warp drive, teleportation beams that defied Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle (hence, why TNG introduced the notion, again w/o explanation, of "Heisenberg Compensators" (they figured those engineers, et. al. would know the contest and why transporter beams are more magic than technology).  Kirk just did things like say, "None of us realized that each was perceiving a different woman," which raised the question--how did he know it to put it in his log?  It was clearly an artificial device, and grated. I think an introduction risks the same thing.  Or an omniscient point of view that over-explains.  Tolkein, in the Hobbit, takes it for granted a hobbit would live in a hole in the ground--albeit, as mentioned, a really nice one.  No--"because of the economics of Middle Earth, the problem of scarcity was solved by a patronage system that put hobbits in holes in the ground."

Anyway, back to helping Akhere, I would advise him *not* to have a long introduction, to sprinkle explanations through the dialogue in a natural way.  He wondered whether there should be rings around the planet, to clue the reader into it's not being our world.  I told him one character could say, "ooh, the rings are beautiful tonight."  (Substitute for 'the moon.')  Heinlein, in Starship Troopers, had a Lt. Colonel run the Ethics class to point out some of the ways the world came into existence.  No introduction.  We're thrown into the middle of the Terran Army fighting an alien species.  We don't even know, until a flashback, how the war happened.  The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, another example.  Double Star.  Not as easy in fantasy, I concede, but the use of mythological traditions (like the Mabinogeon) help. 

Or you can go the Gormenghast way, and have 100 pages of intro before anything happens.

Charles:  1st person limited doesn't limit the universe.  It's just that you encounter it through a character's POV.  If the character is used to the environment, it does present a challenge to present the universe, but think of detective novels set in a city that most people don't live in--like LA, London, or New York.  The detective glances at Big Ben.  He knows that it's the central clock in London, knows what the Tower of London is, or Buckingham Palace, but possibly the reader, who's a high school student in a US public school, doesn't.  How to convey it, without being ham-handed or over explaining it?  Our hero shakes his head as a bird lands on Big Ben as he tries to make out the time.  Wonders how the queen is doing as he walks by Buckingham Palace.  Pauses to think about the way criminals are treated in jails now as opposed to when they were stuck in the tower.  Has conveyed all the information needed about these structures w/o overexplaining and in 1st person.

Don:  I share your concern with the addition of a mystery character.  Why I waited until one of the last chapters to do it.  I'm not committed to it.  Might take it out.  All the snippits you speak of are there, but from the MC's point of view. Like in the last chapter you read, where Rhiannon wonders about the shadowy figure possibly involved in an arson and memory erasure.  (btw, I took your suggestion and had her thoughts about it revealed during dialogue.)  I had the same qualms when I wrote a prologue from the mystery character's POV, and it confused a couple of new readers.  And the mystery character reveals enough at the end of the 2nd book that I will continue to debate the inclusion of the chapter until it's time to post it. 

It would be challenging to write a whole chapter  from the mystery character's POV, but Reginald Hill does it and effectively, so it can be done.  (Although indeed, by the time it is revealed, you think, 'Oh, it's her, is it?  I thought so.'  But that's the problem with any mystery story.)

For a novice writer, I suggest shadow plotting.  You write from the mystery character's POV but off stage, and FYEO.  The snippets come in when the mystery guy intersects with the MC.  But here, be careful, as you need to balance that, as a kind of clue giving, with the reveal.

Akhere, if you aren't thoroughly confused by now, you were not paying attention. lol

Good luck to you, here, Akhere.  The more feedback, the better.

Name/wip:  rhiannon.  wip:  Rhiannon the Nude:  Jeb & Rhia's love story & The Fight for New Fairy.  (I actually am working on 4 to 5 novels under the working rubric of 'Rhiannon the Nude,' and may start a 5th or 6th.)

Favorite genre:  to write, fantasy.  To read, mysteries. 

First character I ever wrote?  John Drake, special agent and interdimentional traveler.  MO?  Wise ass and super competent.  Actually, now that I think about it first character in a novel I wrote was Dawn (AKA Morgan le fey).  Never published.  Probably for good reason. 
Second character:  Rhiannon Oset.  MO:  naivety and derring-do.

Akhere I. wrote:

I'll keep it to two but I'll see how the chapter from the mystery person's point of view goes. If too many people think it doesn't work, I'll cut it

Oh, one thing, most 1st person narratives are past tense. The present, or present progressive, is jarring to many readers, and gets critical, prissy responses.  Still there are writers who use it.  So it's up to you, or what your editor wants.  Three points of view, his, hers, mystery guy, is good. I wouldn't have more than that, not because it would be crowded, that can be managed, but because there's too much risk of them all sounding alike.  Or you could do like I did, put mystery guy's in 3rd person (and in italics to distinguish it), but have his presence felt through.  Where a shadow plot starring mystery guy, comes in.  That would be FYEO, but, in a workshop, if you label it 'shadow plot,' you could post it, if you want help on it. In a shadow plot, you don't have to worry as much about scene creating, showing vs telling, etc.  It's just to keep clear what the character is doing and how he will intersect with your MC's.

One pointer.  Put yourself in the energy field of the character, especially if they are of the opposite sex, or an alien, or whatever.  That way, you become that character for a while, and will see things from their perspective.  Be sure you take off their 'hat,' though, before you go to the next character, or go about your business.  We wouldn't want you actually thinking and acting like Kate among your friends.  That could make for ba moments, especially on date night. lol

The advantage of 1st person is that it associates you in.  You can have multiple 1st persons, just make sure you don't make James Patterson's mistake, when he does that, and have them all sound alike.  Each POV will be limited, and that will be challengings in terms of the action lines.  You may have to do shadow plotting in the 3rd person, to have the antagonists or challenges move along, only to be encountered by the characters without this authorial knowledge.

My book Jeb & Rhia is written from alternating 1st persons, although I end up having a chapter in 3rd person, because of the difficulties.

Your book is well written, (does need organization), and really expresses your advantage in writing YA.  You are one.  Right now, in regard to POV, I'd use my Great Aunt Maude's advise:  "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

648

(1 replies, posted in Close friends)

I read a story where a group of writers, who had to crank out pulp fiction several times a month, used a spinning wheel called a plotter.  It would tell them which elements to use each time.  I swear TV writers must have something like this.  Well, I found the 21st-century version of this.  I generated a mystery, crime, fantasy, and horror plot from it.  Some of the results were comical, as I put my characters in the generator, but with a little tweaking, they work.  If you get stuck for a plot, go to this website.  (You listening, John?)

http://www.plot-generator.org.uk/

649

(18 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Basic)

Hi Jeanne: 

Welcome back.  Last February, I came back after a long absence, was pleasantly surprised at the quality and friendliness of the crowd that congregates here.  I'm sure you will too.  I look forward to reading & reviewing your posts.

vern wrote:

Martian: Women

Of course that would probably be my response to almost any word you put up, lol. Well, they're beautiful on any planet, anywhere, any day, any color, in any language, etc. Take care. Vern

Martian Manhunter, J'onn J'onnes.  Director of the Directorate of Extra-Normal Operations.  Mentor to Kara Zor-El as Kal El doesn't want to interfere.  Or the Man from Mars.  Michael Valentine Smith.  The Church of All Worlds. Or...