Topic: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

This message is meant primarily for the following folks:

Rhiannon
njc
Don Chambers
Tom Oldman
UnicornMom
Jeanne M. Bannon

...as well as anyone else who has been providing regular reviews for my paranormal romance/thriller THE HUNTING GROUNDS. I was going to post this thread in one of my subgroups (e.g., Romance), but it turns out you all are scattered across 3 or 4 of the groups I belong to, so I'm posting here instead. Hope everyone sees it.

First: I have some great news. Wild Rose Press is interested in publishing this novel!!!! [happy dance] I just found out this weekend, and I couldn't be more thrilled. By all accounts, Wild Rose appears to be a solid small press and, I think, a very good match for this story. (But anyone who has words of caution, please speak now -- I want to know.)

Now, the dilemma: I submitted THE HUNTING GROUNDS for the Black Rose line, which does most of their dark, paranormal stuff. The editor, Lara Parker, likes tHG very much, but apparently the heat level is a little too high for Black Rose. So, she's giving me a choice: I can tone down the heat level to keep tHG in Black Rose, or keep the heat level as is and have the novel placed in their Scarlet Rose line instead.

If tHG is published through Scarlet Rose, it will be marketed not only as dark/paranormal, but as erotic romance. (tHG doesn't quite make the cut for erotica, though Scarlet Rose publishes erotica as well.)

So here's my question: What do you guys think? Would the story lose something important if I toned down the sex scenes? Or would the novel read just as well (maybe even better) with a little less heat?

And for those of you familiar with the marketing end: What are the pros/cons of going for a straight paranormal/thriller market vs. a paranormal/thriller/erotic romance market?

What would Helen say?
What would Nathan say? .
..Strike that. We all know what Nathan would say.
What do you say?

All of you have been such great reviewers and I have a lot of faith in your perspectives on how to make this novel the best it can be. I would really really appreciate your input as I consider where to go with this decision.

As a point of reference, let me just add that chapter 16, the last one I posted, is the high-water mark in terms of sex scenes. There is one more amorous encounter later in the book that is equally explicit, but chapter 16 is about as far as I push the envelope, generally speaking.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts. You guys rock. This opportunity from Wild Rose couldn't have happened without your constant feedback & encouragement.

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

I'm still a bit woozy with sickness, and there is some prejudice in my opinion.

If you have a light or redemptive outcome, blunt the sex scenes.  See how much they want.  But if the ending is dark, consider the erotic romance side--if they don't ask you to lard it with too much more sex than you had planned.

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

I wouldn't change your scenes, as you clearly have choices.  Yes, if you were like Heinlein or Micky Spillane, just home from the war, no G.I. Bill, the rent is due, write for the mass audience and get paid.  But you're not in that situation.  You have a publisher, and you haven't asked any of us to go kill a deer for you, so you are not starving. So write the way you want the scene to be.  You clearly liked it hot, as you wrote it that way.  So my advice is the Scarlet Rose line.

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

I'm surprised they consider the sex scenes too much -- considering what has been published in mainstream best sellers (and I'm not just thinking Fifty Shade of Grey). I didn't think it was that over the top. I guess they don't like "vulva" or "labia" or "clitoris"? But I've been accused of writing pornography before, so I guess I shouldn't be talking.

I think the story is great as is. I looked at the website, and Scarlett Rose is geared more strongly to erotica than paranormal. If you go the Scarlett Rose road, I would be afraid your book would not sell as well -- it's really more paranormal than erotic. In this case, some minor editing (like taking out the words I've listed above) won't change the story much and you will likely find a wider audience.

Whatever you decide, congratulations! And please post the rest. smile

Cheers,
Don

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

I agree with Don, Karin. If you manoeuvre around the "George Carlin" words, it might work for them. Getting it out of Scarlet Rose would be a good thing, I think.

I wonder what they would think of my wedding night chapter in YOLT.

~Tom

6 (edited by Karin Rita Gastreich 2016-10-03 02:24:14)

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

Thanks, njc, Rhiannon, Don & Tom! I haven't had a chance to talk with the editor yet - I only have her email to go off of - but the more I think about it, the more I suspect it's a language thing; certain words, as Don pointed out, that they may not like. To quote from the editor's email:

"...the love scenes are written in language we only allow in our Scarlet (erotica) line."

Surely they are talking about the body parts, as opposed to my metaphorical star-drenched galaxies & so forth. If that's the case - if it's just a few words here and there - it seems it would be an easy fix to keep the novel in Black Rose. (Although honestly, I don't understand what's wrong with naming a body part or two; but that's a rant for another day...)

I am really not familiar at all with erotica as a genre, but from what I understand, sex kind of has to be at the center of the plot, which is not really the case with tHG. I worry that if tHG is marketed as erotic romance, fans of erotica won't be satisfied. And of course, fans of paranormal might not pick it up at all. So....

I should get a chance to talk to Black Rose's editor sometime this week. I'll keep you posted. I'm pretty sure, if I sign a contract, I won't be able to post the rest of the novel publicly on tNBW. But I am thinking about creating a private group for regular reviewers (that is, all of you!) who might be interested in finishing their critique of the novel. I'd love to be able to count on your input all the way to the end.

Whatever happens, you'll be the first to know. Thanks again!

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

Warning--Black Rose is not the way to go. Talk to ceridwen on here.

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

Warning--Black Rose is not the way to go. Talk to ceridwen on here.

Thanks, Janet! I'll do that.

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

Karin:

If you receive any advice from ceridwen about Black Rose, would you be so kind to share it with us? It's not that any of us have already been contacted by Wild Rose publishers, but I've heard so much about publishers scamming writers, that it's important for all of us to be aware.

Kiss,

Gacela

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

Mariana Reuter wrote:

Karin:

If you receive any advice from ceridwen about Black Rose, would you be so kind to share it with us? It's not that any of us have already been contacted by Wild Rose publishers, but I've heard so much about publishers scamming writers, that it's important for all of us to be aware.

Kiss,

Gacela

Certainly, Gacela! So far, I've heard good things & bad things about the press. It seems they had a rocky period, especially when they were starting out, but they were also voted best small press several years in a row by RWA. I've sent Ceridwen a note & am waiting to hear back from her. Will let you know as the story develops. smile

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

Karin:  As far as pulling your story, leaving your faithful reviewers bereft, I'll just whisper three little words in your ear:  "Give complementary copies."  lol

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

Hi Karin,
I always go with my instincts. What feels right for you? One good thing is that you're not shy about writing sex scenes - that was always my problem and I'd refused a publisher or two when asked to add them. That said, sex sells. Consider that seriously. If you want more sales, then keep the heat level where it is. I haven't heard anything about the publisher. Can't help you there, but congratulations on the offer. I wish you all the success in the world!

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

rhiannon wrote:

Karin:  As far as pulling your story, leaving your faithful reviewers bereft, I'll just whisper three little words in your ear:  "Give complementary copies."  lol

To tell the truth, I'd prefer to have your feedback before the book goes to press. But barring that, I may consider handing out a few ARCs down the road. In exchange for fair & honest reviews, of course. wink  But we're getting ahead of ourselves...I haven't signed the contract yet.

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

Jeanne M. Bannon wrote:

Hi Karin,
I always go with my instincts. What feels right for you? One good thing is that you're not shy about writing sex scenes - that was always my problem and I'd refused a publisher or two when asked to add them. That said, sex sells. Consider that seriously. If you want more sales, then keep the heat level where it is. I haven't heard anything about the publisher. Can't help you there, but congratulations on the offer. I wish you all the success in the world!

Thank you, Jeanne!
I think my instincts are in an epic battle with my Catholic upbringing right now. wink
That's a good point about sex selling. Of course, in an ideal world, I'd like the novel to sell on more than the merits of its sex scenes, but sometimes you've gotta say, "Whatever it takes."
I actually consider myself shy when it comes to crafting & sharing sex scenes; tNBW has given me a 'safe space' to explore that part of story telling. To be honest, I find sex scenes a pain to write, but I've also always considered sex a natural part of my character's lives, and so I try to make it a natural part of the story. And in The Hunting Grounds, sex is a very important part of Helen's journey. I would have never pegged tHG as "erotic," but I guess somewhere along the way I crossed the magic line. So, I don't know...Lots to think about.

I discovered this afternoon that there are actually two publishing operations that carry the name "Wild Rose:" Wild Rose Press and Wild Rose Publishing. (There is also "Black Rose Writing," which is another entity altogether.) According to Predators & Editors, Wild Rose Press is legit and gets overall good reports; while Wild Rose Publishing is not recommended. Wild Rose Press is the one that's expressed interest in tHG. It's a small press but looks to be a solid operation.

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

I haven't read all of it yet, but I'm back in the saddle. Give me a little time & I'll let you know.

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

I haven't read all of it yet, but I'm back in the saddle. Give me a little time & I'll let you know.

Thanks, Janet. smile

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

Warning--Black Rose is not the way to go. Talk to ceridwen on here.

Also, wanted to let you know that it's confirmed - the place Ceridwen had her bad experience with is not the same press that has expressed interest in The Hunting Grounds. Ceridwen signed a contract with "Black Rose Writing," whereas I've been talking to "Wild Rose Press." Wild Rose Press has a "Black Rose" line, but it is not in any way associated with the other operation.

I've been researching Wild Rose Press through other avenues, and by all accounts, it appears legitimate, even well respected. A small press, but solid. I've got a little time to think about my options. Meanwhile,  I will try to post a few more chapters...

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

I checked out Wild Rose Press also, Karin. There doesn't appear to be any men working for/associated with them but I would feel comfortable submitting a novel. They do indeed have a good reputation in the industry.

~Tom

19 (edited by Jeanne M. Bannon 2016-10-05 22:36:15)

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

Karin Rita Gastreich wrote:
Jeanne M. Bannon wrote:

Hi Karin,
I always go with my instincts. What feels right for you? One good thing is that you're not shy about writing sex scenes - that was always my problem and I'd refused a publisher or two when asked to add them. That said, sex sells. Consider that seriously. If you want more sales, then keep the heat level where it is. I haven't heard anything about the publisher. Can't help you there, but congratulations on the offer. I wish you all the success in the world!

Thank you, Jeanne!
I think my instincts are in an epic battle with my Catholic upbringing right now. wink
That's a good point about sex selling. Of course, in an ideal world, I'd like the novel to sell on more than the merits of its sex scenes, but sometimes you've gotta say, "Whatever it takes."
I actually consider myself shy when it comes to crafting & sharing sex scenes; tNBW has given me a 'safe space' to explore that part of story telling. To be honest, I find sex scenes a pain to write, but I've also always considered sex a natural part of my character's lives, and so I try to make it a natural part of the story. And in The Hunting Grounds, sex is a very important part of Helen's journey. I would have never pegged tHG as "erotic," but I guess somewhere along the way I crossed the magic line. So, I don't know...Lots to think about.

I discovered this afternoon that there are actually two publishing operations that carry the name "Wild Rose:" Wild Rose Press and Wild Rose Publishing. (There is also "Black Rose Writing," which is another entity altogether.) According to Predators & Editors, Wild Rose Press is legit and gets overall good reports; while Wild Rose Publishing is not recommended. Wild Rose Press is the one that's expressed interest in tHG. It's a small press but looks to be a solid operation.

I'm sure whatever you decide will be right for you. Personally, I now prefer self-publishing over traditional publishing because I am in complete control. I've been there, done that with both trad and self pubbing. I don't like not being able to choose my own cover and I don't like relying on the publisher to send me a sales report. I much prefer having a peek at my sales whenever I like. I don't really trust traditional publishers. However, that said, if Harper Collins or Random House came a callin', I'd sure as hell sign on the dotted line smile Let us know what you decide.

Re: Readers of THE HUNTING GROUNDS - I need some advice

Jeanne M. Bannon wrote:

I'm sure whatever you decide will be right for you. Personally, I now prefer self-publishing over traditional publishing because I am in complete control. I've been there, done that with both trad and self pubbing. I don't like not being able to choose my own cover and I don't like relying on the publisher to send me a sales report. I much prefer having a peek at my sales whenever I like. I don't really trust traditional publishers. However, that said, if Harper Collins or Random House came a callin', I'd sure as hell sign on the dotted line smile Let us know what you decide.

I've done both too, and enjoy both options for different reasons. Rolling out The Silver Web trilogy as a self-published work has been a great experience, but to be honest, I need a break from having everything on my shoulders. More than anything, I'm willing to sacrifice a little control if it means have more time to actually write. And I enjoy the community experience of being part of a small press. That being said, if I'm not satisfied with the options for The Hunting Grounds, I will go ahead and self publish it as well. I think that's a huge advantage of being an author in this day and age - there's always an alternative to the "traditional" route.