Topic: A Question About Serial Commas

I typically prefer not to use them. But several reviewers have been pretty explicit (in a kind way) that they feel they are necessary. Just so there's no confusion, here's an example of what I mean about serial commas:

The perp was tall, lanky, fast, and deceptive.

My question is:  do I really need that serial comma between "fast" and "and"?

My junior high English teacher said it was optional. He never used it and I followed suit, not using it either. In college, my Creative Writing 101 professor strongly suggested we always use it, although technically not required. He simply thought it was more appropriate to do so. My Creative Writing 201 professor, said it was purely optional; either way is perfectly acceptable.

To me, it seems redundant to use both the serial comma plus the word "and" before the last item in the series. The word "and" informs the reader that the next item in the series will be the last one. I'd love to hear your opinion on the subject. Thanks in advance!

Alan

Quote Post 1

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

Waiter: Your choice of entrees this evening are lobster, salmon, hamburger, steak and fried chicken.
You: I'll have the steak and fried chicken.
Waiter: No, you have to choose one.
You: I did. You said steak and fried chicken. That's what I want.
Waiter to Manager: Harry, put a damn comma after steak in the menu!

Quote Post 2

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

I think this lawsuit has settled the issue of the Oxford comma once and for all and demonstrates clearly why it is a superior approach to all one's comma needs:
https://www.google.co.jp/amp/s/mobile.n … e.amp.html

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Re: A Question About Serial Commas

Dirk,

Your point is well taken. However, the way you presented it, the waiter was verbally telling the customer his entree options, rather than the customer reading them from a menu. In conversation, I can easily see where there would be easy confusion.

But in printed text, as on a menu, if the steak and fried chicken were grouped together as a single entree item, there would have been an "and" preceding the word "steak", such that it would read " ... lobster, salmon, hamburger, and steak and chicken." Discounting a typo in the printing, written/printed as such, I think rather it's obvious the steak and chicken are a combined, single entree item.

if you see a fault in my logic, please let me know. Although I am not totally adverse to using a serial comma, I prefer not to. And I am willing to accept a convincing argument that disproves my logic. God knows I'm wrong on a lot of things - just ask my wife!

Anyway, I'll be curious to see what others think. I appreciate your input very much. Thanks!

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Re: A Question About Serial Commas

Hi Deck,

Thanks for dropping in with your reply - much appreciated. And I think the article you referenced does change my opinion. I'll start using it hereafter.  Although I don't think the court's decision resolves the grammatical aspect of it's use, it certainly suggests it would be a good idea to use it for certain clarity in all matters legal. And that's good enough to convince me my logic is faulty in practical application. Many thanks for clearing my mind on that!

Dirk,
Please see my reply, above this paragraph, to Deck. He has resolved the issue for me. Again, thanks for your input.


Alan

Quote Post 5

6 Reply by Deckland Oz (edited by Deckland Oz 2018-05-27 06:01:29)

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

Sideman wrote:

Hi Deck,

Thanks for dropping in with your reply - much appreciated. And I think the article you referenced does change my opinion. I'll start using it hereafter.  Although I don't think the court's decision resolves the grammatical aspect of it's use, it certainly suggests it would be a good idea to use it for certain clarity in all matters legal. And that's good enough to convince me my logic is faulty in practical application. Many thanks for clearing my mind on that!

Dirk,
Please see my reply, above this paragraph, to Deck. He has resolved the issue for me. Again, thanks for your input.


Alan

My pleasure! I worked as a copy editor for much of my professional life. Most of our work had serious legal implications based on the use of punctuation, which vs. that, shall vs. should, etc. In such situations, the Oxford comma is no laughing matter, as our friends the milkmen have now proven it last.

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Re: A Question About Serial Commas

Like Alan, I, too, prefer not to use the Oxford comma. Having said that, I will admit to putting one in if the meaning is unclear. If I read the sentence aloud, and take a breath at the right spot, a comma will go in before the "and". My second novel is nearing completion and I'm unwilling to go back through it and add any Oxford commas. Perhaps my attitude will change on the third novel.

Bill

Quote Post 7

8 Reply by Sideman (edited by Sideman 2018-05-27 14:00:23)

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

B Douglas Slack wrote:

Like Alan, I, too, prefer not to use the Oxford comma. Having said that, I will admit to putting one in if the meaning is unclear. If I read the sentence aloud, and take a breath at the right spot, a comma will go in before the "and". My second novel is nearing completion and I'm unwilling to go back through it and add any Oxford commas. Perhaps my attitude will change on the third novel.

Bill

Bill,

That would be quite a task - going back to insert the "missing' commas. I find the serial/Oxford commas distracting, but it seems that's the accepted direction these days. And, like you, I use commas, as needed, to imply a pause in the passage. Best to you, sir.

Alan

Quote Post 8

9 Reply by S. L. Garber-Ortiz (edited by S. L. Garber-Ortiz 2018-05-27 19:22:29)

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

I’m only dipping my toe in the water because if serial commas were a crime, I’d be on death-row. Not because I’m blessed with good aim, to the contrary, I’m dyslexic. So I throw them around like confetti. It’s a little game I play with myself called, “pin-the-comma-on-the-donkey.”
A friend of mine, a stenographer, has a plaque in her kitchen. “Commas save lives.” Underneath are two examples: “Let’s eat grandma” or “Let’s eat, grandma."
Thanks to the likes of Marilyn Johnson (my Comma Queen) and Jack the Knife (my Grammar Warden), all my commas, hyphens, dashes, colons, and semicolons may one day land in their proper place by themselves, and hopefully, no one has to die in the process.
Cheers
-Lynn

Quote Post 9

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

Until someone can give me an example whereby putting in that last serial (Oxford) comma confuses the meaning instead of clarifying it, I'll be an Oxford comma writer! There's no reason not to use it, IMO, other than a determination to avoid commas at all cost. And then the onus would be on the anti-Oxford comma writer to make sure the sentence doesn't give the reader the pause he was trying to avoid in the first place.

Quote Post 10

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

Oxford comma, Harvard comma, and/or Podunk U comma, is all in the eye of the beholder. Good grief, Charley Brown, use it or don't use it; if there is no right or wrong, let your publisher figure it out if it will use more ink than necessary, and if you self-publish, you can make your own decision. Five cents,,, please. Take care. Vern

Quote Post 11

12 Reply by Dallas Wright (edited by Dallas Wright 2018-05-27 20:41:34)

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

"By train, plane and sedan chair, Peter Ustinov retraces a journey made by Mark Twain a century ago. The highlights of his global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector."

“I see but one rule: to be clear. If I am not clear, all my world crumbles to nothing.”
Stendhal, writing to Balzac

Quote Post 12

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

Dallas Wright wrote:

"By train, plane and sedan chair, Peter Ustinov retraces a journey made by Mark Twain a century ago. The highlights of his global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector."

“I see but one rule: to be clear. If I am not clear, all my world crumbles to nothing.”
Stendhal, writing to Balzac

To be clear or not to be clear … yes, that is the goal for sure. But if one has to inform the reader with a comma that the demigod is or is not the collector of dildos, then the author should not be worried about said reader and would surely have described the demigod who just happens to collect dildos as such in a more pragmatic way or perhaps said author needs a different hobby. Clear is not always for everyone as a simple overwhelming majority will do in most cases. Take care. Vern

Quote Post 13

14 Reply by Dallas Wright (edited by Dallas Wright 2018-05-27 21:32:02)

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

vern wrote:
Dallas Wright wrote:

"By train, plane and sedan chair, Peter Ustinov retraces a journey made by Mark Twain a century ago. The highlights of his global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector."

“I see but one rule: to be clear. If I am not clear, all my world crumbles to nothing.”
Stendhal, writing to Balzac

To be clear or not to be clear … yes, that is the goal for sure. But if one has to inform the reader with a comma that the demigod is or is not the collector of dildos, then the author should not be worried about said reader and would surely have described the demigod who just happens to collect dildos as such in a more pragmatic way or perhaps said author needs a different hobby. Clear is not always for everyone as a simple overwhelming majority will do in most cases. Take care. Vern

I’m not smart enough to understand what you just wrote, but thank you for typing it.

PS: You might take a good hard look at that note from Stendhal.  LOL

Also, some people distinguish between “writers” and people that “type stuff”
Take care.

Quote Post 14

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

Dallas Wright wrote:
vern wrote:
Dallas Wright wrote:

"By train, plane and sedan chair, Peter Ustinov retraces a journey made by Mark Twain a century ago. The highlights of his global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector."

“I see but one rule: to be clear. If I am not clear, all my world crumbles to nothing.”
Stendhal, writing to Balzac

To be clear or not to be clear … yes, that is the goal for sure. But if one has to inform the reader with a comma that the demigod is or is not the collector of dildos, then the author should not be worried about said reader and would surely have described the demigod who just happens to collect dildos as such in a more pragmatic way or perhaps said author needs a different hobby. Clear is not always for everyone as a simple overwhelming majority will do in most cases. Take care. Vern

I’m not smart enough to understand what you just wrote, but thank you for typing it.

PS: You might take a good hard look at that note from Stendhal.  LOL

Also, some people distinguish between “writers” and people that “type stuff”
Take care.

Well, you tried, bless your heart. Take care. Vern

Quote Post 15

16 Reply by Dallas Wright (edited by Dallas Wright 2018-05-27 22:53:24)

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

vern wrote:
Dallas Wright wrote:
vern wrote:

To be clear or not to be clear … yes, that is the goal for sure. But if one has to inform the reader with a comma that the demigod is or is not the collector of dildos, then the author should not be worried about said reader and would surely have described the demigod who just happens to collect dildos as such in a more pragmatic way or perhaps said author needs a different hobby. Clear is not always for everyone as a simple overwhelming majority will do in most cases. Take care. Vern

I’m not smart enough to understand what you just wrote, but thank you for typing it.

PS: You might take a good hard look at that note from Stendhal.  LOL

Also, some people distinguish between “writers” and people that “type stuff”
Take care.

Well, you tried, bless your heart. Take care. Vern

My grandfather.  He’s eighty-four.  A curmudgeon, grumpy old sonofabitch.  He can't hear, he's about half-senile, bored a lot.  Sometimes, in a group of people having a conversation, he’s just half-listening.  When he doesn’t have anything substantive to add, or when he just wants to stir things up, he lets one rip and just sits there in his own fetid stench and grins as he watches what happens.

Quote Post 16

17 Reply by TirzahLaughs (edited by TirzahLaughs 2018-05-28 03:13:32)

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

Sideman wrote:

I typically prefer not to use them. But several reviewers have been pretty explicit (in a kind way) that they feel they are necessary. Just so there's no confusion, here's an example of what I mean about serial commas:

The perp was tall, lanky, fast, and deceptive.

My question is:  do I really need that serial comma between "fast" and "and"?

My junior high English teacher said it was optional. He never used it and I followed suit, not using it either. In college, my Creative Writing 101 professor strongly suggested we always use it, although technically not required. He simply thought it was more appropriate to do so. My Creative Writing 201 professor, said it was purely optional; either way is perfectly acceptable.

To me, it seems redundant to use both the serial comma plus the word "and" before the last item in the series. The word "and" informs the reader that the next item in the series will be the last one. I'd love to hear your opinion on the subject. Thanks in advance!

Alan

It used to be required.  It is not now.  Most publishers prefer you to leave the last comma out now.  Technically, you are correct either way.  My rule of thumb is that if it is understood easily without it, leave it out.  If the lack of the last comma causes confusion, add it.

https://annhandley.com/oxford-comma/#.WwtzzyAh1PY
Oxford Comma

Quote Post 17

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

Dallas Wright wrote:
vern wrote:
Dallas Wright wrote:

I’m not smart enough to understand what you just wrote, but thank you for typing it.

PS: You might take a good hard look at that note from Stendhal.  LOL

Also, some people distinguish between “writers” and people that “type stuff”
Take care.

Well, you tried, bless your heart. Take care. Vern

My grandfather.  He’s eighty-four.  A curmudgeon, grumpy old sonofabitch.  He can't hear, he's about half-senile, bored a lot.  Sometimes, in a group of people having a conversation, he’s just half-listening.  When he doesn’t have anything substantive to add, or when he just wants to stir things up, he lets one rip and just sits there in his own fetid stench and grins as he watches what happens.

I'm sure he loves you just the same. Take care. Vern

Quote Post 18

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

The issue of commas is complex, but one of the reasons for the Oxford commas is that the traditional rule for commas in a series is that if the series is incomplete, you do need the comma before the last listing to signify that the list is incomplete.  For example, "My desk has pencils, wipes for my classes, and my tablet."  This would be correct as it has a couple of knives, my earbud, earphones, this computer, etc.  However, if I were to list all that Churchill had to offer--"blood, sweat and tears," then, as the list is complete, the and is sufficient.  The trouble with applying the traditional rule is obvious.  Hence why your teacher said it was optional. But as my grammar program and the Oxford dons would say, go ahead an put the darn comma in.  Whatever you decide, be consistent.  And fine, computer:  "blood, sweat, and tears."

Quote Post 19

20 Reply by Lynne Clark (edited by Lynne Clark 2018-05-30 09:08:11)

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

Rachel wrote:

   Whatever you decide, be consistent. "

I think this is the most important. There are arguments for and against the use of the Oxford comma. Personally, I like it, I think it makes lists clearer, but not every style sheet likes it.  But if you are going to use it, use it everywhere. Don't just scatter it around like buckshot.

Quote Post 20

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

Comma fest! Punctuation anyone? (Periods and caps too!)

That that is is that that is not is not that that is not is not that that is that that is is not that that is not

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Re: A Question About Serial Commas

That that is, is. That that is not, is not. That that is not, is not that that is. That that is, is not that that is not.

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Re: A Question About Serial Commas

Excellent Lynne ! You get First Prize! (A big hooray!)  smile

Quote Post 23

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

pammy raff wrote:

Excellent Lynne ! You get First Prize! (A big hooray!)  smile

Thenk yew! Thenk yew! *bows*

Quote Post 24

Re: A Question About Serial Commas

Good question. It requires a deep analysis. I will conduct research on this topic an publish it on my personal blog. have a look at it in three days!

Quote Post 25