Topic: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Hi there, I was considering changing my book, the Naked Forest, so that it's in the first person. However, there are two narratives so I wanted to see if anyone else wrote a story like this and what everyone's thoughts on the matter were.

Currently, the book is in the third person and is kind of third limited but also a bit omniscient. I want to know what the best way to structure my book would be so any insight would be helpful.

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Don Chambers on this site uses first-person multiple POVs. He frequently alternates between two characters on a chapter-by-chapter basis. You may want to contact him to see what guidance he can give. Perhaps he can recommend one of his books to read/review. He's an excellent reviewer.

I started with omniscient, but most current fiction is third limited, so I switched. Fortunately, I did. There are several chapters that absolutely would not have worked in omniscient. If you plan to self-publish, you can break whatever rules you like. Some of the best-selling fiction of all time used omniscient, although the ones I know were written a long time ago.

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Akhere I. wrote:

Hi there, I was considering changing my book, the Naked Forest, so that it's in the first person. However, there are two narratives so I wanted to see if anyone else wrote a story like this and what everyone's thoughts on the matter were.

Currently, the book is in the third person and is kind of third limited but also a bit omniscient. I want to know what the best way to structure my book would be so any insight would be helpful.

I haven't written any YA novels, but I have written several adult novels utilizing that device and I think it is very effective if you: 1) have two strong MCs that require separate POVs (for example, they will separate and their different actions are critical to the plot), 2) alternate the voices on a consistent basis (for example every other chapter), and 3) do not randomly add another character's first person POV just because you want to, and 4) want to use present tense.

I have found one has to be very disciplined to write this way, and may have to revise certain plot points to maintain the consistency. I've read some stories that do it well, but others that randomly just throw in different characters using first person POV rather willy nilly. The latter, IMO, does not work as well, because as a reader you've firmly established yourself in one chapter's POV, then the switch is jarring. But by alternating from the beginning, the reader establishes the pattern and is used to it.

One of my current WIPs (Ghost in the Machine) is written using alternating first person POV if you want to check it out.

The main drawback to this narrative style is you can't have an omniscient POV, unless one of the voices is God. smile

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Norm d'Plume wrote:

Don Chambers on this site uses first-person multiple POVs. He frequently alternates between two characters on a chapter-by-chapter basis. You may want to contact him to see what guidance he can give. Perhaps he can recommend one of his books to read/review. He's an excellent reviewer.

I started with omniscient, but most current fiction is third limited, so I switched. Fortunately, I did. There are several chapters that absolutely would not have worked in omniscient. If you plan to self-publish, you can break whatever rules you like. Some of the best-selling fiction of all time used omniscient, although the ones I know were written a long time ago.

You beat my reply by a millisecond, Dirk. smile

5 (edited by Norm d'Plume 2016-09-24 17:16:59)

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Don't forget to join the Medieval Fanatasy/Magic group. There's a group of reviewers there who would be happy to help. Create a thread there with your name and book/name(s) in the subject line. Many of us do that. You can use that to brainstorm with other members about your book. There is a member there named Kdot who just recently posted that he's looking for new material to review.

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

The advantage of 1st person is that it associates you in.  You can have multiple 1st persons, just make sure you don't make James Patterson's mistake, when he does that, and have them all sound alike.  Each POV will be limited, and that will be challengings in terms of the action lines.  You may have to do shadow plotting in the 3rd person, to have the antagonists or challenges move along, only to be encountered by the characters without this authorial knowledge.

My book Jeb & Rhia is written from alternating 1st persons, although I end up having a chapter in 3rd person, because of the difficulties.

Your book is well written, (does need organization), and really expresses your advantage in writing YA.  You are one.  Right now, in regard to POV, I'd use my Great Aunt Maude's advise:  "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Thanks for the advice everyone. If I were to do it now, I'd have the first six chapters from Icarus' POV and the next two from Kate's. Then one from Icarus' followed by two from Kate's and from then it's pretty much every other chapter. (So yeah, I may need to restructure that!).

Thanks for the compliment Rhiannon. The narrative isn't too bad but I've been told that some points seem like it's head hopping so I think First person is the way to go. It'll make expressing the character's thoughts more natural.

I definitely have to check out the medieval fantasy/magic group, D'plume. I think brainstorming with new minds will be a great way of getting new ideas and getting a feel of where my novel should go.

Don, if I alternate the main two MC POVs well, can I have one chapter from a side character? It's mostly so we can see the MC from the rest of the town's eyes and to introduce another problem the MC can't know about. Also, is present mandatory? My story is in past so converting it to present would get me all... tense *Ba boom tiss*

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Sure. That works really well, as long as you have distinctive voices. The YA series I'm reading now -- An Ember in the Ashes and its sequel, by Sabaa Tahar, is hard to put down, and she uses alternating 1st person present POVs throughout (2 voices in book 1 and 3 in book 2).

9 (edited by graymartin 2016-09-24 20:02:45)

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

One more suggestion: I agree with Don that you should restrict your POVs to the main characters only. Otherwise, this kind of narrative can get too crowded and quite jarring.

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

I'll keep it to two but I'll see how the chapter from the mystery person's point of view goes. If too many people think it doesn't work, I'll cut it

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Your 3rd POV will probably be fine, as long as the reader knows whose POV he/she is in. Don puts the name of the POV character for each chapter just below the title.

I also alternate between two POV characters throughout my book, but it's 3rd person limited. I have one chapter that needs to be in another character's POV, and it worked out fine.

12 (edited by rhiannon 2016-09-24 20:40:38)

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Akhere I. wrote:

I'll keep it to two but I'll see how the chapter from the mystery person's point of view goes. If too many people think it doesn't work, I'll cut it

Oh, one thing, most 1st person narratives are past tense. The present, or present progressive, is jarring to many readers, and gets critical, prissy responses.  Still there are writers who use it.  So it's up to you, or what your editor wants.  Three points of view, his, hers, mystery guy, is good. I wouldn't have more than that, not because it would be crowded, that can be managed, but because there's too much risk of them all sounding alike.  Or you could do like I did, put mystery guy's in 3rd person (and in italics to distinguish it), but have his presence felt through.  Where a shadow plot starring mystery guy, comes in.  That would be FYEO, but, in a workshop, if you label it 'shadow plot,' you could post it, if you want help on it. In a shadow plot, you don't have to worry as much about scene creating, showing vs telling, etc.  It's just to keep clear what the character is doing and how he will intersect with your MC's.

One pointer.  Put yourself in the energy field of the character, especially if they are of the opposite sex, or an alien, or whatever.  That way, you become that character for a while, and will see things from their perspective.  Be sure you take off their 'hat,' though, before you go to the next character, or go about your business.  We wouldn't want you actually thinking and acting like Kate among your friends.  That could make for ba moments, especially on date night. lol

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Akhere I. wrote:

Don, if I alternate the main two MC POVs well, can I have one chapter from a side character? It's mostly so we can see the MC from the rest of the town's eyes and to introduce another problem the MC can't know about. Also, is present mandatory? My story is in past so converting it to present would get me all... tense *Ba boom tiss*

It doesn't HAVE to be present, but I have found that present tense really pulls the first person narrative into the immediacy of the action that is happening, rather than feeling like a narrative told later.

I also disagree with Rhiannon a little regarding adding the voice of a "mystery person" in a novel written from alternating first person POV. In some respects, it's cheating, and weakens the story a little IMO. The strength of first person POV is that the reader is totally in that character's head -- they cannot see the conspiracy around them, for instance, until they interact with it. Yes, this is limiting, and the temptation is to do as Rhiannon suggests and write a short snippet here or there from the "mystery" persons POV to let the reader know a little more. But it takes us out of experiencing the story as a character, into more of a perspective of watching it on TV or the movies. Most of the time, you can remove those snippets and just have the MCs interact with the mystery or find a clue that gets the same point across.

If such a scene is vital to the story, then I think third person is better, because that allows you to flit from character to character as if watching a movie. This is an especially good technique in thrillers.

Of course, all of this is my opinion, and one can do whatever they want. A story I'm reading on the site has alternated between first person, third, and even second person, using four characters. Although it's extremely well written, I'm not entirely sure it works, and it is not something I would recommend for a novice writer. It is an interesting experiment, though, which is why this site is so cool.

14 (edited by rhiannon 2016-09-24 23:25:01)

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Don:  I share your concern with the addition of a mystery character.  Why I waited until one of the last chapters to do it.  I'm not committed to it.  Might take it out.  All the snippits you speak of are there, but from the MC's point of view. Like in the last chapter you read, where Rhiannon wonders about the shadowy figure possibly involved in an arson and memory erasure.  (btw, I took your suggestion and had her thoughts about it revealed during dialogue.)  I had the same qualms when I wrote a prologue from the mystery character's POV, and it confused a couple of new readers.  And the mystery character reveals enough at the end of the 2nd book that I will continue to debate the inclusion of the chapter until it's time to post it. 

It would be challenging to write a whole chapter  from the mystery character's POV, but Reginald Hill does it and effectively, so it can be done.  (Although indeed, by the time it is revealed, you think, 'Oh, it's her, is it?  I thought so.'  But that's the problem with any mystery story.)

For a novice writer, I suggest shadow plotting.  You write from the mystery character's POV but off stage, and FYEO.  The snippets come in when the mystery guy intersects with the MC.  But here, be careful, as you need to balance that, as a kind of clue giving, with the reveal.

Akhere, if you aren't thoroughly confused by now, you were not paying attention. lol

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Akhere:

Writers way more seasoned than I have poured much wisdom in this forum. I'll only add that, if you’re planning to narrate in first person from two different characters’' POV, you need to make sure their voices are quite distinguishable. If not, the reader would feel confused and will not enjoy the story, thinking the writing is choppy. So, be prepared to create first person POV voices as different as if you were writing two novels.

Kiss,

Gacela

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

I'll get the whole novel out first before I put it in 1st person. Also, I may cut the mystery character scene since I can relay the information without them. I think I'll stick to past tense since I'm use to it and I'll try and get into the energy field of Kate. Maybe I'll have to dress up and put on Kate whiskers when I write next time.

17 (edited by Charles_F_Bell 2016-09-25 13:05:52)

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Don Chambers wrote:
Akhere I. wrote:

Don, if I alternate the main two MC POVs well, can I have one chapter from a side character? It's mostly so we can see the MC from the rest of the town's eyes and to introduce another problem the MC can't know about. Also, is present mandatory? My story is in past so converting it to present would get me all... tense *Ba boom tiss*

It doesn't HAVE to be present, but I have found that present tense really pulls the first person narrative into the immediacy of the action that is happening, rather than feeling like a narrative told later.

Sure, anything to avoid writing a good narrative introduction for sci-fi and fantasy. Tolkien wrote a strong narrative for The Hobbit, all of three pages, and Asimov did for Foundation. It was right then, and it is right now. Otherwise, the novel is another genre, Romance, Action,..., with sci-fi/fantasy dressings.  The Hobbit and Foundation were not "Adult" as against "Y/A". They could be, and were, read and enjoyed by a ten-year-old and certainly by any teen.

18 (edited by njc 2016-09-25 14:05:52)

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Asimov and Tolkien were very strong and skilled writers.  Not everyone can follow their paths.

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

njc wrote:

Asimov and Tolkien were very strong and skilled writers.  Not everyone can follow their paths.

Aspiring to the lame is acceptable?

3rd person limited is a style developed for the small-range, intimate story, but obviously broader than 1st person limited.  It makes no sense to limit a new universe created in sci-fi & fantasy, and only omniscient works for that, and unlike through 1st and 3rd limited, it is acceptable to step out of perspective into some other POV temporarily even if it takes a dialog tag or interstitial paragraph or chapter.

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Charles:  1st person limited doesn't limit the universe.  It's just that you encounter it through a character's POV.  If the character is used to the environment, it does present a challenge to present the universe, but think of detective novels set in a city that most people don't live in--like LA, London, or New York.  The detective glances at Big Ben.  He knows that it's the central clock in London, knows what the Tower of London is, or Buckingham Palace, but possibly the reader, who's a high school student in a US public school, doesn't.  How to convey it, without being ham-handed or over explaining it?  Our hero shakes his head as a bird lands on Big Ben as he tries to make out the time.  Wonders how the queen is doing as he walks by Buckingham Palace.  Pauses to think about the way criminals are treated in jails now as opposed to when they were stuck in the tower.  Has conveyed all the information needed about these structures w/o overexplaining and in 1st person.

21 (edited by Charles_F_Bell 2016-09-25 20:17:04)

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

rhiannon wrote:

Charles:  1st person limited doesn't limit the universe.  It's just that you encounter it through a character's POV.  If the character is used to the environment, it does present a challenge to present the universe, but think of detective novels set in a city that most people don't live in--like LA, London, or New York.  The detective glances at Big Ben.  He knows that it's the central clock in London, knows what the Tower of London is, or Buckingham Palace, but possibly the reader, who's a high school student in a US public school, doesn't.  How to convey it, without being ham-handed or over explaining it?  Our hero shakes his head as a bird lands on Big Ben as he tries to make out the time.  Wonders how the queen is doing as he walks by Buckingham Palace.  Pauses to think about the way criminals are treated in jails now as opposed to when they were stuck in the tower.  Has conveyed all the information needed about these structures w/o overexplaining and in 1st person.

I don't object to limited POV in contrast to omniscient, and you mention the detective/mystery/thriller story almost for which the limited 3rd style is designed. Doyle with Sherlock Holmes used Watson's tiny piece of the universe he inhabited and Holmes' role in it to weave his stories. But it is that tiny piece of the universe which every human being can himself experience and does not need much explaining other than Watson is a doctor and Homes is a deductive genius.  On the other hand, if there's magic or faster-than-light travel through space and sentient creatures which are not like us, that universe needs explanatory introduction and helpful explanatory addendums from time to time from the author because these things do not and probably cannot exist and are therefore out of possible human experience. There is a phoney jump out of reality (even if the "reality" is fake) when a limited 1st or 3rd character tries to do such explanation when it cannot be possible for him/her to do so. The Romance in which the MC finds out her lover is cheating because she happens to be at the right secretive spot at the right time - a Romance author can do that once in novel, but a fantasy or sci-fi author cannot - unless it is a Romance subplot.  Therefore when I say that "Sci-fi" when written outside of omniscient POV that cannot therefore be bothered to introduce through narration a universe outside of any human experience is not really writing about a universe outside of human experience but is using faster-than-light travel and such as theatrical tools to write a Romance or Mystery or whatever.

Star Trek the original aired for the first time fifty years ago this month, and it was not a critical or popular success because Kirk's short monologue at the beginning was not enough to overcome an ordinary what the hell is all this stuff. However, a generation later, with ST-TNG, all that "stuff" of Warp drive and Vulcans, etc. is a given as if real because those "facts" have been absorbed into a sort of urban legend.  For sci-fi originality it is harder and harder to be "original" and authors have given up trying to be good sci-fi writers and prefer being writers of other stuff using hand-me-down sci-fi originality as a backdrop. There are exceptions -  The Unincorporated Man - omniscient POV, with introduction, though tiny, and from 1962 Milton Friedman, of all things, and does go straight to characterization in modern style. Interesting, too, there isn't an MC who is likeable.

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Without knowing the story there is no way to suggest whether multiple first person narratives would be effective. Also, without knowing the skill level of the writer I wouldn't hazard a suggestion. One of the most important skills is to be able to write in a variety of distinctive voices whether it is dialogue or first person narrative. I've never seen your writing so I would have no way of knowing.

Why not show samples and then ask the same question?

23 (edited by rhiannon 2016-09-25 23:38:11)

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Charles:  I disagree that you need a narrative as a prologue to what is happening in a fantasy or science fiction, unless you define the genres in such a way as, indeed, you have to have such a narration. You say that genres that don't need such an introduction aren't really outside of human experience.  OK, fine, but then we begin to asked questions like--is it really fantasy or SF?  I'm not sure what the point of that is, unless you're dealing with an editor who only publishes such things, and has a specific definition in mind ("Can't have robots.  We already have robots.  So it's not science fiction.")  I think the best of the F/SF genre does take human experience and puts it in a new context.  I feel a little defensive here, but I really don't care what my stories are called.  Indeed, the first turns on jealousy, intrigue, and reactions to betrayal and coming down in the world.  If that means it's not fantasy, that's fine.  I deliberately limit the technology (with a few exceptions like anti-gravity) to which will most likely be achieved by the end of this century.  Thus, "warp drive" isn't science fiction by your definition.  The magic is limited to the Mabinogion, for the most part, but employes other tropes, like Gypsy curses.  The gypsy in Stephen King's Thinner is similarly modelled:  a curse to nakedness is parallel to a curse to thinness. Involuntary nudity is a kind of disability, which isn't beyond human experience.  A fight for the throne, a civil war, and neo-colonial style imperialism isn't either. 

I agree with Fred Miller's definition of science fiction vs. fantasy.  SF is in an orderly universe, governed by understandable natural laws.  Fantasy isn't.  It is a squishier context, but a world where there is sorcery, one has to be careful not to run afoul of witches, mind manipulation, and one that has medieval knights, castles, and context surely counts.  If not, then I'm content with calling it "adventure," "historical romance," or just WTF (which is why I contemplate self-publication).  But I've read stories labeled "fantasy" by conventional publishers (like Tor) that take place in 1st person or limited 3rd person). 

Star Trek wasn't a critical or popular success because the critics and the sponsoring network hadn't done proper democraphics.  The year NBC canceled it, they did run such a demographic analysis, and although ST: TOS didn't have the 30% of the viewing audience they were looking for, the engineers, professionals, and college graduates who watched it bought an awful lot of really big ticket items.  So they lost money when they canceled it.  Kirk, to my memory, never explained what the Federation was, who Klingons were, or went iinto warp drive, teleportation beams that defied Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle (hence, why TNG introduced the notion, again w/o explanation, of "Heisenberg Compensators" (they figured those engineers, et. al. would know the contest and why transporter beams are more magic than technology).  Kirk just did things like say, "None of us realized that each was perceiving a different woman," which raised the question--how did he know it to put it in his log?  It was clearly an artificial device, and grated. I think an introduction risks the same thing.  Or an omniscient point of view that over-explains.  Tolkein, in the Hobbit, takes it for granted a hobbit would live in a hole in the ground--albeit, as mentioned, a really nice one.  No--"because of the economics of Middle Earth, the problem of scarcity was solved by a patronage system that put hobbits in holes in the ground."

Anyway, back to helping Akhere, I would advise him *not* to have a long introduction, to sprinkle explanations through the dialogue in a natural way.  He wondered whether there should be rings around the planet, to clue the reader into it's not being our world.  I told him one character could say, "ooh, the rings are beautiful tonight."  (Substitute for 'the moon.')  Heinlein, in Starship Troopers, had a Lt. Colonel run the Ethics class to point out some of the ways the world came into existence.  No introduction.  We're thrown into the middle of the Terran Army fighting an alien species.  We don't even know, until a flashback, how the war happened.  The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, another example.  Double Star.  Not as easy in fantasy, I concede, but the use of mythological traditions (like the Mabinogeon) help. 

Or you can go the Gormenghast way, and have 100 pages of intro before anything happens.

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Rhiannon: to illustrate your point about first person POV and sci-fi, I'm citing below the first few lines of "Dark Eden" by Chris Beckett. The author didn't open with a long preamble about an alien, sunless planet or the inbred human tribes subsisting on this hostile, geothermally powered world. Rather, the backstory fills in around the main characters as they start an ordinary day, getting ready to hunt:

"    THUD, THUD, THUD. Old Roger was banging a stick on our group log to get us up and out of our shelters.
     "Wake up, you lazy newhairs. If you don't hurry up, the dip will be over before we even get there, and all the bucks will have gone back up dark"
     Hmmph, hmmph, hmmph, went the trees all around us, pumping and pumping hot sap from underground. Hmmmmmmm, went forest. And from over Peckhamway came the sound of axes from Batwing group. They were starting their wakings a couple of hours ahead of us, and they were already busy cutting down a tree.... "

Less than 200 words in and I already know I'm in a completely alien world, filled with strange sights and sounds. The author doesn't info dump about how this colony was founded by a handful of humans -- hence the inbreeding of "Batwing" group, which we come to learn is so named because their cleft lips give them "bat-like" faces. Nor does he explain that - in a world with no sun - waking and sleeping cycles would be governed by some other system of "wakings." Rather, we're plunged right into this unique and brilliantly creative universe.

Re: First Person Multiple Narrative Young Adult Book Anyone?

Gimblyfart says, "Bo/bow, waddle here.
Bo/bow tweets, "O Gimblyfart, twaddly-do my bunsin!"

graymartin wrote:

Less than 200 words in and I already know I'm in a completely alien world, filled with strange sights and sounds. The author doesn't info dump about how this colony was founded by a handful of humans .

Yes, indeed.