Topic: The unreviewed.

I'm looking for feedback on an idea for a new group idea.
I've noticed there are works that are skipped over, put into the 'too-hard,' bin.
I understand why, sometimes you see a plethora of spelling and grammatical errors and you inwardly sigh. I fear my work is like that too. So you skip over and move on.

So..... I am proposing a new group be formed called the unreviewed, where those with zero reviews can join and post links to their work.
We ow it to them to review their work and to try help these authors along, getting them on the right tracks. We all have had to start somewhere.
I'm not starting the group because I don't feel qualified to moderate it, so if you like the idea, I'd like someone with good experience to kick this off.
Although I still consider myself a newbie, I do feel I could contribute and would be happy to help review the unreviewed works. Ideally some writers from a few of the different genera's would be great. Even those strange people called 'Poet's,' would be needed.

Experienced writers could swing by say once a week, fortnight, whatever suits and review a members work.

The last thing any of us want, and I've been there a dozen times, is for a new writer to lose heart and give up.

Your support would be awesome lovely people

Re: The unreviewed.

Not sure how the other groups do it, but in medieval/fantasy, we start a thread for our work and post there when we need feedback on something specific. smile It's worked for me so far, though I'm still a bit of a newbie as well.

-Elisheva

3 (edited by njc 2016-01-20 20:48:46)

Re: The unreviewed.

For my own case, I review stories that I feel I can appreciate properly.  How can I help improve what I don't understand?  That I might have four or five comments per line is not an issue, as several reviewees can attest.

Re: The unreviewed.

njc wrote:

That I might have four or five comments per line is not an issue, as several reviewees can attest.

Surely, I know not of what you speak. wink Seriously, though, every one of those comments are very helpful.

-Elisheva

Re: The unreviewed.

d a reynolds wrote:

I'm looking for feedback on an idea for a new group idea.

Are you looking for feedback on an idea? I'm always happy to give an opinion on ideas. wink


d a reynolds wrote:

I am proposing a new group be formed called the unreviewed, where those with zero reviews can join and post links to their work.

IMHO, this is a great idea, provided newbies can find "The Unreviewed" group. There is a lot of information to navigate on this site. And a lot of groups to sift through. Perhaps you can add helpful guidance as to how to find a support network on the group, "FAQ for Members"?  Elisheva has the right of it, here...

Elisheva Free wrote:

  "...but in medieval/fantasy, we start a thread for our work and post there when we need feedback on something specific..."

d a reynolds wrote:

I've noticed there are works that are skipped over, put into the 'too-hard,' bin. ...sometimes you see a plethora of spelling and grammatical errors and you inwardly sigh...

I believe you might be misunderstanding the motivations of some members. I can only speak for myself, but with my muse beating me over the head to produce, and the reciprocals I owe, it's rare that I'll grab a random piece of work to review. Newbie or otherwise.


d a reynolds wrote:

I'm not starting the group because I don't feel qualified to moderate it

Au contraire! As the one who had the idea, you should be the one to begin the group. Don't sell yourself short. You'd be great.

d a reynolds wrote:

I do feel I could contribute and would be happy to help review the unreviewed works.

Absolutely!

d a reynolds wrote:


Even those strange people called 'Poet's,' would be needed.

As a poet, I read the humor with which this was intended, but I'd step softly on those sensitive toes if I were you. big_smile

d a reynolds wrote:


Experienced writers could swing by say once a week, fortnight, whatever suits and review a members work.

I'd sure give it a shot. Although, between my McShane Mini-Mysteries and the reciprocals I owe, I'm afraid I'd be one of those 'far and few between' kind of reviewers.

d a reynolds wrote:

The last thing any of us want, and I've been there a dozen times, is for a new writer to lose heart and give up.

Agreed! That's why you should follow through on this idea. There is some wonderful talent on this site, and more joining every day. However, it takes a lot of work, as you can atest, to make it here. Or especially out in the 'real' writing world, where we aren't surrounded by fellow supportive writers.

Good Luck! 'Invite' me if you choose to start this up. I'd be interested in checking in.

Re: The unreviewed.

Once upon a time on a site far far away (i.e. the older version of this one) I more than once suggested that all members be required to occasionally review a work with less than the 3 reviews which was semi-implied by joining the site. Of course that was met with vigorous opposition which mainly focused on the fact that no one wanted to be "forced" to read something they didn't want to read/review. I politely pointed out that we are already "forced" to read works from the list which is presented on site; you can't read something not published on site to get review points which we all need to publish our own works. And any "mandatory" list containing all works with less than 3 reviews would merely be an sub set from the list we are already "required" to choose from. Choosing ones which you like or are reciprocating from that list is just a side effect so to speak and regardless of our reason for choosing, we still are "mandated" to choose something from the overall list provided.

To me, it would be no big deal to be "mandated" to choose from a separate list on occasion to retain the privilege of publishing our work on site. But, alas, such a notion went over about as well - and probably still would - as a fart in a closed room. As we already receive bonus points (not very substantial)  for reviewing works with less than 3 reviews, it doesn't seem likely that merely adding another thread to "showcase" them is going to make much difference. What might work, however would be to greatly enhance the number of points for the first three reviews. Say, you received triple the regular points for the first review, double for the second, and 1.5 for the third review. That might be enough to entice those in need of quick points to sift through the list for those with less than 3 reviews. But who knows? It would certainly imho create a better climate for those works than a simple thread asking for volunteers. Probably most who would volunteer are already doing so to at least some degree. The added points would certainly be a blessing for newbies who needed to build credits quickly to post their work.

Just throwing it out there again for what it's worth. Just for the record, for me and probably lots of others, the added points would make no difference in my reviewing habits, but it just might draw attention from lots of folks who need those extra points and would serve to give the neglected authors more of a fair shake in getting a minimum of reviews. It might be likened to affirmative action and probably be just as controversial, but sometimes it is needed and does work. Take care. Vern

Re: The unreviewed.

d a I know this doesn't apply to you, but are those receiving next to no attention spending the time to review the work of others?  I'm not asking to disqualify anyone, but since swaps are the name of the game around here, a new face has to work that much harder (even more reviews) to gain any kind of reciprocal footing. I'm not debating what's right or fair, but it is something we've all had to overcome when we were new.

I try to seek out newer writers when I'm caught up with my owed stuff. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen often enough.

Re: The unreviewed.

Linda Lee wrote:

d a I know this doesn't apply to you, but are those receiving next to no attention spending the time to review the work of others?  I'm not asking to disqualify anyone, but since swaps are the name of the game around here, a new face has to work that much harder (even more reviews) to gain any kind of reciprocal footing. I'm not debating what's right or fair, but it is something we've all had to overcome when we were new.

I try to seek out newer writers when I'm caught up with my owed stuff. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen often enough.

I think there are writers who do come on and don't understand the system,  plus reviewing does not come easy to many of us.
I'd imagine you could also consider this proposed group as a, "Boot camp," on how to use TNBW.
RE: Swoppies, the Quid pro quo. I've reviewed  a few people and never heard anything back, and this is experienced members.
Anyway, this is why I ut the idead out there, to get feed back.
Is it just me or is the forum dead compared to the old site?

Thanks Dave

Re: The unreviewed.

The group structure does tend to balkanize the site.

Re: The unreviewed.

Good idea! It's difficult to find people who are willing to engage in a one-for-one review relationship, but when you do find them, it becomes such a great learning experience!

Re: The unreviewed.

vern wrote:

Once upon a time on a site far far away (i.e. the older version of this one) I more than once suggested that all members be required to occasionally review a work with less than the 3 reviews which was semi-implied by joining the site.

Naturally from you a fascist attempt to coerce attention toward a purported worthy goal.

Nothing like, as I suggest, a reasonable proportionality of review length to reviewed work. It's now 0.3 points or 30 points for 5 comments or 50 words, regardless.

The point system, of freedom to choose the rewards one seeks, is despicable to you.

vern wrote:

I politely pointed out


An unlikely event.

vern wrote:

To me, it would be no big deal to be "mandated" to choose


Of course not, being the sort you are - rude, obnoxious, mandating.

Re: The unreviewed.

njc wrote:

The group structure does tend to balkanize the site.

I'd say, there's proofreading for "review" and there's reviewing for review and comment. Proofreading, even for those who are good at it, is boring and never pays very well for the time spent in free time or compensated time.  On the other hand, it takes a reviewing professional to review something not at all to one's tastes, so the balkanization comes from few (probably no) people having wide ranging interests in reading material. Certainly, it is a pointless exercise to comment (other than proofreading) on literary fiction as if the purpose is commercial/popular gain, and on vampire-zombie romance as if it were high art.

And, to make my point again on how each may have his own goal in reward, a good writer might have one or two actual writing mistakes in several thousand words, and another will have dozens in the same number of words. The (technically) bad writer will be rewarded with a proofreading review of five corrections in the first paragraph, and presumably get the point that the rest is of similar quality, and the good writer will have no reward at all because he is good.

13

Re: The unreviewed.

So long as the reviewer can find something that is clearly weaker than the rest, the good writer will be reassured by how good the weaker parts are--and will continue to improve.  And I don't know if it's a question of taste, or of the ability to appreciate and understand what is being written.

There may be a few for whom English Composition is like music to Mozart, but for most of us it's a skill that will always stand improvement.

One thing you can say of commercial fiction: it brings pleasure to the multitudes who purchase it.

Re: The unreviewed.

Charles_F_Bell wrote:
vern wrote:

Once upon a time on a site far far away (i.e. the older version of this one) I more than once suggested that all members be required to occasionally review a work with less than the 3 reviews which was semi-implied by joining the site.

Naturally from you a fascist attempt to coerce attention toward a purported worthy goal.

Nothing like, as I suggest, a reasonable proportionality of review length to reviewed work. It's now 0.3 points or 30 points for 5 comments or 50 words, regardless.

The point system, of freedom to choose the rewards one seeks, is despicable to you.

vern wrote:

I politely pointed out


An unlikely event.

vern wrote:

To me, it would be no big deal to be "mandated" to choose


Of course not, being the sort you are - rude, obnoxious, mandating.

LOL! Thanks for another good laugh Charles. Take care. Vern

Re: The unreviewed.

njc wrote:

So long as the reviewer can find something that is clearly weaker than the rest, the good writer will be reassured by how good the weaker parts are--and will continue to improve.  And I don't know if it's a question of taste, or of the ability to appreciate and understand what is being written.

There may be a few for whom English Composition is like music to Mozart, but for most of us it's a skill that will always stand improvement.

One thing you can say of commercial fiction: it brings pleasure to the multitudes who purchase it.

It's passe. In twenty years all "commercial" fictional story-telling will be in a form other than the novel. What might be left, should there be anybody trained to write it, is literary fiction that provides something other than plot, action, dialog, and kid's/YA books should Common Core not take hold. The only reason reading for light fun, versus serious mind-toning, is still around is because the baby-boom generation has not died out. My sampling of young-folk writing is that it is rudimentary movie/TV making of little literary (in the broadest sens) value. If I am wrong in this, someone please point me to a millennial's example of serious mind-toning fiction and not just another story.

16 (edited by njc 2016-01-22 20:26:14)

Re: The unreviewed.

We can't make those judgements until time has passed.

The world is changing.  It's been changing since hunter-gatherers settled down to become farmers.  We can encourage people to treasure the old, including old arts and skills.  Maybe they do, maybe the change seems to be really better.

That judgement is for history.  All we can do is try to make it.

Re: The unreviewed.

Have I poked a hornets nest Linda Lee?

Yes of course reviewing and being reviewed is not that straight forward; for some, more so than others.
For those that are comfortably ensconced in their cosey reviewing groups, having others on the same level, if not higher, is nirvana I'm sure.
So why would you want that boat rocked. "To hell with the newbies, I had to sink or swim." Really?

I think Linda's idea to offer far better point's for newbies work and or works under 3 reviews, is great.

I also think a Newbie heaven type group, if thought out well and supported by those upstairs and the seasoned authors, would help immensely.

Perhaps I'll send a message to Suin for his thoughts.

Thanks

David

Re: The unreviewed.

njc wrote:

We can't make those judgements until time has passed.

The world is changing.  It's been changing since hunter-gatherers settled down to become farmers.  We can encourage people to treasure the old, including old arts and skills.  Maybe they do, maybe the change seems to be really better.

That judgement is for history.  All we can do is try to make it.

I think the problem is that medium has become more important than the message, the reverse of the Gutenburg revolution. Or, maybe it is a tech monster grown from the Gutenburg revolution.  High quality (in form, substance, artistry, production value) in music cannot carry on in ipod/smartphone era, so the stuff becomes all the same mediocre pablum; perhaps ebooks will do the same to fiction -- then people will get over it and move on into something more exciting and leave behind the novel unless the novel fills a special niche in art as it originated in.

19 (edited by njc 2016-01-24 12:44:52)

Re: The unreviewed.

You could supposrt that with the 'professionalization' of the performing arts, and the great increase in quality that came with recording.  But then you'd have to flip the coin over and look at the popularity of youTube.

The biggest danger to written work might be the creeping illiteracy coming out of the highly 'professionalized' schools of the urban centers, boosted by 'identity' culture that declares study and learning as 'inauthentic'.

I know this, though: They can't read what we don't  write.

20 (edited by Charles_F_Bell 2016-01-24 14:44:12)

Re: The unreviewed.

njc wrote:

You could support that with the 'professionalization' of the performing arts, and the great increase in quality that came with recording.  But then you'd have to flip the coin over and look at the popularity of youTube

I agree with this but believe history has taken it further. The popularization of the arts (mostly music, though high-quality reproductions of paintings is in there, too)  through any recording medium has been a cost-v-benefit calculation  up to the digital age. The CD, at first, was a boon because of the enormous signal-to-noise ratio but has so degraded in qualities of other aspects  to the point of 'just getting the stuff out there;' what the 'stuff' is, no longer matters. I saw this even in the concert-hall going classical music listeners that it became a snobby sort of social event and little about the music. There just is 'stuff' going on in the arts that has so little to do with art.  Fiction is different in there being never an end to story-telling, as such,  as much in being human as language, but there has been and ought to be more to the novel than story-telling.  The newer, efficient media of transportation are stripping out everything but the story.

njc wrote:

The biggest danger to written work might be the creeping illiteracy coming out of the highly 'professionalized' schools of the urban centers, boosted by 'identity' culture that declares study and learning as 'inauthentic'.

In sense, that is what I mean by the stripping out everything but the story telling, and maybe even that, in the course of 'progressive' education  reducing reading to understanding manuals and government regulations and ignoring all that too-complicated, white eurocentric literature useless stuff.