601

(9 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

What does it mean as a writer when you're proofing and start to cry over a scene you wrote?

You have to be careful with such scenes because it is possible that readers (even those who know you personally) will not react emotionally as you do, and besides being disheartening, that clouds your intent for the scene in an objective POV. For example, the author wants the "loss of dog" to explain why the MC snaps at his wife and ignores his children over a long grieving period, but a reader, who may even have owned and lost many dogs, will not react to a dog's death as you do, being more like a replaceable loss of property to him, so the author would for that reader be in an awkward position of having to explain the grieving process of your MC whereas it is better stylistically to leave it as understood.

602

(15 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

We have a lot of non-American authors on here. Before you make your American self sound stupid, learn a little bit about other English speaking authors & the subtle or not-so-subtle differences.

Easy ones:    American                                    Others
                  -or endings (Savior)                      -our endings (Saviour)
                  -ize endings (advertize)                 -ise endings (advertise)
                  -ed past tense (burned)                 -t past tense (burnt)

burnt vs. burned and -ise vs. -ize are not really (arbitrary) spelling differences but regional dialect differences: the words are usually pronounced differently (consider British ad-ver'tise-ment (-tis-) v. American ad'-ver-tise'-ment (-tize-).

There should have been a line of English spelling reformers after  Noah Webster having the common sense, at the very least, to have taken the -u- out of -our, and reversing -re to -er which has always been more than eccentric about British English speakers after the 18th century --  they should have held on to idiotic spelling habits. It's difficult enough to have multiple ways to spell what is phonetically alike, jale and jail and jael but gaol?  There is no other word in English that begins with ga-, pronounced jay, and my stab-in-the-dark reason why British English kept with gaol is the word origin in Norman French and therefore for reason of class distinction, as ceiling was for the inside manor roof  and veal  was for the lord of the manor's calf.

Spargo Postle wrote:

Hello. Charles,

Seriously, do people still say that? I haven't heard either of those expressions for the past twenty years, maybe even longer. Please, send my compatriots back to England they need to be re-booted into this century. But, only if they are English, of course.

Have a truly lovely day, mate.

Love ya,
Spargo Postle

Well, 35 years ago, certainly. American "eraser" I expect would take hold in England as much as ice tea might; "fag" cigarette or fatigue might have gone the pc route out of existence.

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

We have a lot of non-American authors on here. Before you make your American self sound stupid, learn a little bit about other English speaking authors & the subtle or not-so-subtle differences.

Easy ones:    American                                    Others
                  -or endings (Savior)                      -our endings (Saviour)
                  -ize endings (advertize)                 -ise endings (advertise)
                  -ed past tense (burned)                 -t past tense (burnt)

Here's a funny little link on Facebook, but it's true. Learn something about other cultures before you tell a Brit, as Aussie, or even a Canadian they've spelled something wrong.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid … mp;theater

can be amusing sometimes; "Got a rubber?"; "I'm fagged out, mate!"

605

(9 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Tom Oldman wrote:

As the man who backed into the bologna slicer said, "I'm getting behind in my work". I have, at the moment, 17 new posts to review, and another 31 backed up for a single author. I regret that very much as I try very hard to get to posts as fast as I can.

My problem is that my eyes are acting funny - tearing and burning. The Optometrist at the base tells me it is related to stress and maybe my working in the back yard has put a bunch of pollen in them.

I've found that if I read more than one (possibly two) chapters, I can't go on until I rest for an hour or so. To this end, I apologize for not getting right to those backed-up chapters, poems, and stories.

But, I will get to them.

~Tom

Have you tried to printing out? {Ink, paper $$ , yes} under 75W+ incandescent ? Reading computer screen desktop or tablet, even with glasses, is hard/unnatural  for eyes > 50 yrs old.

max keanu wrote:

Kittens & Genocide...

Baiting someone to argue with you is not in keeping with the twice stated intent of this thread.  As  the one who unintentionally took this to a tone in a different direction because my instinct is always to bring to mind the other side of an issue -- that what is a "good" feature of the new TNBW can be used as a "bad" feature in another way. I apologize to Janet R for having done that.  On the bright side, my niece has not quite got to the point where she will put the crazy uncle in the attic.

Norm d'Plume wrote:

If I don't want to deal with someone in real life, I avoid them. Same principle when it comes to blocking. If someone offends me and I want to block them, that should be my decision. I'm paying to be here after all. Why put up with trolls?

I never questioned the right to do anything, but rather in self-justification to do the wrong thing. Perhaps I needed to have said that blocking is a good thing for whatever reason (Yay! the new TNBW), just don't give a reason that is offensive.  I've tried this whole blocking thing with the IRS in real life, and it hasn't worked.

j p lundstrom wrote:

You have a point about the arbitrary blocking of a reviewer simply because he/she gave you an unwelcome review. However, some of us are easily scared off when we see two people squaring off (albeit figuratively) and throwing verbal punches in the forum. Others of us just don't want to deal with people who spend their time in such a pursuit. There are justifiable reasons to block such folks.

Why are you comparing kittens and genocide?

It is more than giving an unwelcome review (that can be made to disappear). Is it a proper NTBW attitude to un-welcome anyone who will give needling advice?  Is it proper NTBW attitude to ostracize someone who has had a vociferous (but still not crossing lines) confrontation  with someone else? [1]  I presume that is your reasoning to justify blocking someone from reading your work who never has had any contact with you.

Kittens/genocide  provides a kind of extent of "needling" advice/critique at both ends.  If a piece offers up love of kittens and the reviewer replies with a rejection of kittens, how exactly should the author respond?  Blocking the guy?  Really?  On the other hand, if a piece offers up love of genocide and the reviewer replies with a rejection of genocide, how is the author of the type who favors genocide going to respond? Blocking.  It may be understandable but is it justifiable?

[1] It is sensible to me to seek an opinion from an opinionated person, and in some ways even better, from an opinionated person with an opposite opinion.  But there, the polar extremes of the kitten/genocide reviewer won't work, though.

j p lundstrom wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
dagnee wrote:

Their opinion of your subject, but nothing about about how to make your writing better.

Well then, critiquing a blank page suits your purpose perfectly. No spelling, grammar,or punctuation errors there.

Bad ideas can only be expressed poorly. This is more obvious in non-fiction than fiction but for the latter it is true but usually hidden, perhaps even unknowingly by the author who may be "educated" in bad ideas and does not know better.

One could not have made Herr Hitler's writing better, and it is certainly a moral error to critique Mein Kampf only on the basis of his turgid and impenetrable style, and Steinbeck's content problem is an issue even if expression of that content into language by grammar, spelling and punctuation is not.

Charles,
I think you misunderstood. dags wasn't proposing to criticize the subject of another's work. Such a critique, without helpful suggestions, was one item in a list of reviews she finds less than useful. There's no need to jump on everyone who just might not agree with you.

We do agree that even authors who have a wonderful command of language can write crap, and that no amount of skill will turn crappy ideas into beautiful writing. (Same thing, said twice--what do they call that?)

I do have a question, though: what was Steinbeck's content problem?

Affectionately, JP

Rather than go into the weeds on what could be an essay ("How Hitler and Steinbeck are the Same"), I'll stick to the issue that Blocking a reviewer because of his review for the reason he is obnoxious has flipside that suggests that the author/Blocker is insensitive to criticism on the basis of disagreement on content, and I think polite criticism of content is a valid criticism, even without particular authoring suggestions, and it is rude, unhelpful, and anti-social to block someone on that basis. Or for that matter, to block anyone for any reason other than truly obnoxious behavior.

Disagree or agree as far as that goes?

Yes, there is a difference between :  "How dare you claim kittens are cute and cuddly!"  and "How dare you suggest genocide!"

What do you think of blocking someone with whom you have had no interaction at all -- as some sort of pre-emptive strike? And yes, that has happened.  Or blocking without explanation on what was so wrong with the one and only review?  And yes, that has happened.

dagnee wrote:

Their opinion of your subject, but nothing about about how to make your writing better.

Well then, critiquing a blank page suits your purpose perfectly. No spelling, grammar,or punctuation errors there.

Bad ideas can only be expressed poorly. This is more obvious in non-fiction than fiction but for the latter it is true but usually hidden, perhaps even unknowingly by the author who may be "educated" in bad ideas and does not know better.

One could not have made Herr Hitler's writing better, and it is certainly a moral error to critique Mein Kampf only on the basis of his turgid and impenetrable style, and Steinbeck's content problem is an issue even if expression of that content into language by grammar, spelling and punctuation is not.

611

(6 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Norm d'Plume wrote:

I'm not an artist, but my favorite image that comes to mind is someone sitting hunched in front a computer, with a clock that says 2 AM, eyes bugging out of the face, and with frazzeled hair. Perhaps a pencil/pen behind the ear. Papers and books lying/stacked everywhere. One book could say dictionary, another thesaurus, and another grammar on the spines.

Or of a late middle-aged pudgy man hosting a PSA ad for kids' reading on all the CBS stations carrying the TV mini-series of his co-authored book which he will be watching on his Palm Beach estate, smoking a cigar and drinking bourbon and branch.

KHippolite wrote:

Sure... now let's give the character a stronger accent. In this example, italics deliberately left out for purposes of the exercise:

Montrose tilted his head to get a clearer view of the hoyden behind Giselle. Them two dames aint no look nottin' alike. He dismissed the two of them with a flick of the wrist. Aint no look like my sweet Margarat, neither.

So, your point would be that sometimes an author needs neither italics nor tag?  It works in the above example because of the "He dismissed . . ." portion. If the paragraph ended with "... nottin' alike" I think a tag is necessary. Otherwise, with or without italics, it is too abrupt. Making sure the omniscient narrator's voice is different than the MC's voice is a different issue.  As a rule, if not written in 1st person limited (which is limiting) I think a worse story is one which has the same style of language throughout, very short stories and memoirs excepted.

KHippolite wrote:

Sure, I'll bite... What do you think of the case where the character's voice differs from the narrator's voice?


In the example . . .
_____
(1) Montrose tilted his head to get a clearer view of the hoyden behind Giselle. {italics, character}They look nothing alike. He dismissed the two of them with the flick of a wrist. {italics, character}And neither looks like my Margaret.

(2) Montrose tilted his head to get a clearer view of the hoyden behind Giselle. They looked nothing alike, these two women posing as his dead wife’s sisters. He dismissed both with a flick of his wrist. They also looked nothing like his sweet, sweet Margaret.

{character} Stupid, ignorant fool. Should have known better than to believe. Than to hope . . .

____

So what do you mean?

The verb tense was changed to be the same, but the character voice sounds different than narration mainly because of the incomplete-sentence, choppy style. New paragraph, too, with a transitional phrasing at the end of the first paragraph.

John Byram wrote:

I read the Editor's Blog on internal dialogue. It was clear and informative. Thank, John

I think the discussion following is good to look through, too.

So far, this is the best, more nuanced discussion:

http://theeditorsblog.net/2012/02/28/in … -thoughts/

Note that I gather the tone is: even if the italics for the purpose is around, it is unnecessary, and considering the Chicago Manual of Style does not include that method at all, it is understood that the style is not one that would be commonly accepted by readers or editors.

"Option #3, writing thoughts without italics, makes for the least intrusive read and is likely the best choice for most of today’s writers and for most genres. It may not be perfect for every story, genre, and set of circumstances, but it will work for many. Especially for stories with deep POV, that very intimate third-person point of view."

This my opinion:  an italicized thought in the midst of a paragraph is intrusive and probably unnecessary. It can work but in low dosage, perhaps once in a chapter.

--- (quoting from above cited discussion)
The following is an example of thoughts without italics from a third-person POV. In this example, the reader is not being told Montrose’s thoughts, but actually hears them as Montrose thinks them.

{Montrose tilted his head to get a clearer view of the hoyden behind Giselle. They looked nothing alike, these two women posing as his dead wife’s sisters. He dismissed both with a flick of his wrist. They also looked nothing like his sweet, sweet Margaret.

(no italics) Stupid, ignorant fool. Should have known better than to believe. Than to hope . . .}

There is no doubt that Montrose is the one thinking these thoughts.

616

(26 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Norm d'Plume wrote:

I started with omniscient because I didn't know any better and was strongly encouraged to drink the cool-aid and switch to 3rd person limited. I'm glad I did because there are several key chapters that wouldn't have worked if I had been inside both MCs heads at the same time.

Is Wool by Hugh Howey the sort of thing to emulate with the limited 3rd person?  I found that story a good short story/novella but an awful novel for the reason of so little material in so many words.

617

(26 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

MrsPiddles wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
MrsPiddles wrote:

Oh, Dear Mike. I fear I've joined the ranks of raking you over the coals with this. Do not let any of this be a discouragement! Roll with it and write the story you want to read!

I used to consume books like a kid eating candy. I still read, but not as much. I've read mostly first person or close, limited POV. I really don't like omniscient because I like to get into the book and feel a part of the story.

How is: "I am a fat, bald 75-year-old man, and I like to shoot stray cats with arrows," allowing you to feel a part of the story? Or, for that matter, "I'm a gorgeous, independently wealthy woman with two lovely children and a caring, thoughtful husband" ?

Gosh, Charles, I'm not sure how to answer that. Like I said, any style done well is great to read, but the snippets you share don't give me enough information to comment.

POV is a writer's choice. And it's a reader's choice to pick it up and go from cover to cover. The important task for the writer is to mould that book into the best possible material, and that takes work and a ton of critiques.

I also love a great discussion. We all benefit by talking.

Write On!

The tone of your response, beginning with "I've joined the ranks of raking you over the coals with this," is: oh well, write in that dreary old fashioned omniscient if you must . . . 

Now, I might say  that "I really don't like omniscient because I like to get into the book and feel a part of the story" is a preposterous statement if I've ever heard one, but I won't, of course, for POV is a writer's choice and it is for the reader to go with what the author offers him.

618

(26 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

MrsPiddles wrote:

Oh, Dear Mike. I fear I've joined the ranks of raking you over the coals with this. Do not let any of this be a discouragement! Roll with it and write the story you want to read!

I used to consume books like a kid eating candy. I still read, but not as much. I've read mostly first person or close, limited POV. I really don't like omniscient because I like to get into the book and feel a part of the story.

How is: "I am a fat, bald 75-year-old man, and I like to shoot stray cats with arrows," allowing you to feel a part of the story? Or, for that matter, "I'm a gorgeous, independently wealthy woman with two lovely children and a caring, thoughtful husband" ?

619

(26 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Norm d'Plume wrote:

Dune uses omniscient POV and is the best-selling sci-fi novel of all time. Today, publishers are so focused on a POV style that masterpieces of the past would never even get published.

I started with omniscient because I didn't know any better and was strongly encouraged to drink the cool-aid and switch to 3rd person limited. I'm glad I did because there are several key chapters that wouldn't have worked if I had been inside both MCs heads at the same time.

That aside, I plan to self-publish, so I have no problem breaking a few rules to tell the story the way I would like to read it.

I have to wonder why would publishers be so focused on limiting the story to some POV? Limiting isn't a good thing for creation.  In truth, the author is still omniscient and creating everything any way, and it's one more thing over which to have to suspend disbelief.  I think it's putting a picture of steak (oh, see how the character really thinks) on a bag of cow's brains (see how the omniscient author writes what the character thinks).

620

(37 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

Prologue as flashback is a contradiction in terms.  You haven't yet established a present, so you can't flash back from the established present.  A prologue used that way is history, a part of the story occuring some time before the rest.

A short introduction, to set the theme and tone of the entire story,  not sequential in time, perhaps.  The movie American Sniper has a kind of prologue with him taking aim in Iraq - - then flashback  up to that same scene, and then the story progresses sequentially with inclusion of new flashbacks of his meeting his future wife, etc.  This sort of thing has become more common in movies and TV, and  I find it a little annoying, though not so much in that movie because it is non-fiction and I was familiar with the story. I also think flashbacks are easier to bear in movies than in novels.

621

(26 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

jack the knife wrote:

Here's a link to an examination of the omniscient POV: www.scribophile.com/academy/using-third-person-omniscient-pov.

I don't understand the opinion that 3rd person omniscient is difficult (either to read or write) or why your editor would not let you use omniscient.  Frankly, it is the easiest and most natural way to write a story if the author is not wanting to be personally involved as one of the characters. He's simply there observing everything there is to be observed and reading every mind there is to read.   The limited omniscient (whether 1st or 3rd person) is difficult because in  reality no person is omniscient and various tricks have to be employed to get around that . . . [I happened to be under the staircase when I overheard my brother sweet-talking my girlfriend.]

622

(37 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Mike Roberson wrote:

I was raised on brains and eggs, Charles.  I read the article with an eye to removing large flashbacks.  The Prologue would actually hold the crime of years before.  Then the story would lay out the impact on characters years later.  My only thought is to limit the size of flashbacks.  Now I am thinking if I'm good enough I can work the info into the characters thoughts as the story unfolds.  Just a rookie, playing with his new found brain.  Mike

Yes, but . . .  prologue as a flashback is a different animal, just like a forward/introduction, as Janet points out, is not a prologue either.  If it is to recap the story in a series, that is one thing, but to start a story with a flashback is a bad idea. They've been doing that a lot in TV and it doesn't play well, and for the most part, the flashback deserves the bad rep it gets. I'm struggling to limit flashbacks in the sequel to my book (Remembrances . . . ) that was all flashbacks (and false memories). I may have permanently damaged my narrative technique that should be linear and unambiguous unless one is deliberately trying to effect a different, non-traditional (i.e., non-commerical) style like I was doing in Remembrances . . .

623

(37 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

j p lundstrom wrote:
Mike Roberson wrote:

Checking out the dif in foreword, prologue's and such.  Found this interesting.
http://theeditorsblog.net/2011/07/06/pr … -prologue/

Mike--I just read the article, and I have to say I'm in the group of readers against prologues. My main complaint? I want to read the story, not the  background junk.  JP

Don't worry! Everything alleged in that blog post is wrong.  A writer's prologue is like operatic or broadway musical composer's overture. The concept started in Greek drama to be like a movie trailer, and if the listener/reader is turned off by a overture/prologue, then is it a fact that he had better spend his money elsewhere.   Readers should thank an author for a prologue. I think it is a bad author who cannot let his reader feel the true timbre of his work at the beginning, from his first words exclusive of characters and plot, and instead, at best, relies on trite, unimaginative formulas which disappoint shortly into the book because that's all there is, sort of like putting a picture of steak on a bag of cow brains.

624

(83 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Charles_F_Bell wrote:
Gods Ghost wrote:

And, btw, you exist in a reality in which one of the interpretations of QM is in governance.

It is my opinion and any reasonable person's opinion that there is no existing valid "interpretation" , and all such interpretations are unnecessary to consider QM a valid theory both in pure and applied sciences.  Analogously, no engineer need believe in gravity waves (or in Relativity or in QM or in Big Bang,  . . . ) to build a bridge.

It is, however, in order to participate in a democratic republic, necessary to believe in clinical medical evidence against legalizing a substance that in any positive light has far more deleterious effect on every human being than it could have good.

625

(83 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Gods Ghost wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

Paranoia is paranoia

My apologies for not elaborating as efficiently as I should have. "behaviors associated with paranoia." (aka, increased fear) Not "Paranoia."
These people are not given a mental condition by the substance. Show me one study that says otherwise, or stop saying it.

They exist in a mental-illness condition, before and after. The question for you to answer is to what degree ought a drug pusher legally increase that mental-illness condition, all the way to death? or little less than that?  FDA says none.  Why do you disagree with the FDA?


Gods Ghost wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

It is a set of analytical mathematical equations and conjectures on what they mean.  "Interpretation" means interpretation. "Analytical" means: Of a proposition that is necessarily true independent of fact or experience.  All analytical interpretations of QM are independent of facts and experience and in Cartesian fashion assumed to be true whether or not there are facts to show they are true. There are no facts or experience that demonstrate CI (and M-theory, by the way) -- as only analytical conjecture -- "true" in any epistemological way, only in an imaginary way.

Actually, no.

Actually, yes.  Interpretation means interpretation.  and analytical means analytical. The fact is all experiments show light (and simply life itself to the aware observer) as a wave and a particle, and all interpretations of that fact are interpretations, not fact.


Gods Ghost wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

There is no "definite outcome" on whether light is a wave or particle. They are both outcomes, empirically. That is why scientists are speculating, not pontificating, as you do.

The fact of the matter is that they change when observed/measured.

That is not "fact" but an interpretation.