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(186 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
Dill Carver wrote:

Empires rise and fall. If Rome has seen better days then Athens certainly has. With China owning 68 cents (and rising) of every US dollar your big country is competing in the irrelevancy stakes.

That might depend on how long it takes for our Vespasian to arrive.

Your arriving Vespasian is either a Trump or a Clinton and either will be too busy invading the others privacy to worry about Britain or China.

Oh no.  Obama is Nero and Hillary is Drusilla, Caligula's dead sister. Poor Tump may be Galba.

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(186 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

'Pussy' is mildly offensive.  'tw*t' is patently offensive.  That's a term from US jurisprudence, BTW.

Yes, but like p***y , t**t has another unoffensive meaning.  I like p***y does mean I like my cat ever so very much even though I have taken to calling him p**py lately.

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(186 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Mariana Reuter wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

(2) just because British English evolved in some ways away from English spoken in the rest of the world does not make it the correct English;

I just wanna tell you people I sooo very impressed.

This discussion about “sneaked vs. snuck” leaded (should I use “led” instead?) by this awesome bloke with such a very, regular American name (you guessed it right! It’s Charles F. Bell!) has been sooo totally constructive. I’ve just learnt a bunch of stuff—Gosh! I need to stop using this Brit. grammar that has evolved away from the English written elsewhere in the world. LOL! It’s like I’m writing another language.

With sincere appreciation,

Helga Marianne Reuter

That's quite lovely.  Have you considered entering a Trump beauty contest?

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njc wrote:
Dill Carver wrote:
njc wrote:

Does it enhance the discourse, or just make you feel better to say 'tw*t'?  Does it make you feel better for saying it?

It's not that bad. A kind of watered down expletive, very much the British equivalent of the American slang use of the word pussy.

It's one more line crossed.  How many are left?  Shouldn't we leave a few uncrossed?

I'm sorry that the penny hasn't dropped for you yet.  In England, the word does not have the meaning, or quite the explicit meaning, you think it has. I mischievously used the word to trap another but got you instead while the one to whom it was directed would know what I meant, should he not have been a complete pretender.

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(186 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

Because England has increasingly become irrelevant since 1900 and will cease to be anything much at all before William ascends, it should be accepted that proper English comes from the U.S.A. but without American bigotry that you cannot speak and write English as you wish in your little country.

Empires rise and fall. If Rome has seen better days then Athens certainly has. With China owning 68 cents (and rising) of every US dollar your big country is competing in the irrelevancy stakes.

That might depend on how long it takes for our Vespasian to arrive.

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(186 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

The tone was invoked when you claimed:

Having distinct US colloquial origins, to a British/English ear the word 'snuck' evokes sensations of banjo music and hillbilly imagery.

This includes three false statements. (1) "snuck" is not a U.S. colloquialism; (2) just because British English evolved in some ways away from English spoken in the rest of the world does not make it the correct English; (3) evoking sensations... etc. is something a pretentious twat says.

pretentious twat wrote:

Ahem...

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

(1) "snuck" is not a U.S. colloquialism;

I've trawled the internet upon the origins of the word 'snuck' and the consensus is that the word originated in the U.S.A and began to emerge in written language from the 1920's onwards.

Well, the operative word here is "written" when it was editorially suppressed within the context of the prescriptivist English movement that began in the 1870 's. "Snuck" and other words have been slowly premitted back because of the Ebonics movement - following on the fact that blacks, North and South, almost universally use the word over "sneaked"  For similar reasons, generationally propagating antebellum white Southerners have always used the word, too.  I never heard the word "sneaked" until I lived in Pittsburgh, whose natives rather perversely use older English past-tense verb-forms (wept, leapt, smelt) because of early Scots and later German inhabitants.

So if "snuck" is not a U.S. colloquialism, then it surely was at its point of origin and remained so until it was adopted as a common word.

That is backwards history. The history is complicated by the fact that "sneaked" snuck into English in the Old Country as proper probably well into the 18th century partly we might suppose because the Great Vowel Shift mentioned before equalized many words like "leak" and "sneak" by the 17th century - but not always among the lowers classes, North and Scotland from which emigration to America was most common.

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

(2) just because British English evolved in some ways away from English spoken in the rest of the world does not make it the correct English;

I must admit I'm struggling with this one. I suppose I could simply say; 'yes but just because Canadian English evolved in some ways away from English spoken in the rest of the world does not make it the correct English. Or 'just because USA English evolved in some ways away from English spoken in the rest of the world does not make it the correct English.

Again, the history is backwards. English changed rapidly in England (1600-1800) and not so rapidly in America (outside of New England), so American English is original English (outside of London, Essex, Sussex, etc.) in broad generalization. Canada is irrelevant. Australian and South African are stuck in a timelock ca. 1750. because of relatively low immigration in early empire.

As I said, I'm struggling with this one.

Surely, British/English is correct in Britain, whilst New Zealand/English is correct within New Zealand and Canadian/English... etc. Are you saying that U.S/English is correct and that any variants that have evolved away from it are invalid? 

In any case, I never said that 'snuck' is incorrect English.

Because England has increasingly become irrelevant since 1900 and will cease to be anything much at all before William ascends, it should be accepted that proper English comes from the U.S.A. but without American bigotry that you cannot speak and write English as you wish in your little country.

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njc wrote:

... (3) evoking sensations... etc. is something a pretentious tw*t says.

This word is not appropriate here.  Let's please not use it again ... and let's not point fingers or belabor the point.

Look up the word in the OED, or some American dictionaries and you will find the meaning:

A man who is a stupid incompetent fool.  [primarily U.K.]

What meaning were you considering?

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Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

There is no need to correct anyone's grammar/punctuation on an internet forum in which proofreading is not requested unless the meaning is unclear. Doing so invariably means you have nothing else, or ever anything relevant, to say. ....

Yes! And thank you for supporting me on this. .

No, what I was referring to was that instead of your addressing ...

Having distinct US colloquial origins, to a British/English ear the word 'snuck' evokes sensations of banjo music and hillbilly imagery.

This includes three false statements. (1) "snuck" is not a U.S. colloquialism; (2) just because British English evolved in some ways away from English spoken in the rest of the world does not make it the correct English; (3) evoking sensations... etc. is something a pretentious twat says

... you corrected my typing "i" instead of "f" and another writer typing "your" instead of "you're"  ...

... proving that you are an obnoxious pseud.

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corra wrote:
njc wrote:

Well, if you insist on pulling the Bell chain, you're going to get gonged.

Let it drop already.

What is this "pull the Bell chain" thing?

Perhaps, your contribution being "you've got your head up your ass."

A harpy is always annoying.


People within this thread were participating in a discussion about sneaked versus snuck. Dill expressed his opinion that people in the U.K. find the word "snuck" indicative of a low intellect among Americans. That's an observation.

No, it's flat out bigotry. There can be no observation of something that does not exist. This is no different than black skin, flat nose, and thick lips indicates low intelligence. Moreover, attributing his/your own bigoted opinion to everyone in the U.K. is typical of a bigot.


This after mocking Gacela when he thought she was American,

I never thought she was an American. I made a comparison between her absurdity (paraphrasing: that everyone should speak the same regular English) and another absurdity {"That Americans should have American names.") That she and you are irony-challenged should not have come as a surprise to me.

then retreating when he realized she wasn't. Now he's accusing Dill of what appears to be bigotry against white men -- a rather odd claim, but there you have it. I believe I am also being accused of something,

...That you and he speak politically-correct (antiwhite(ness) and feminist) bigotry in your opinions, and, again, that you and he don't even know what I am talking about should come as no surprise because, more or less, within the meaning of 'bigotry' is ignorance and under-powered IQ.

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Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

....sneaked v.s snuck never came up in his Josey Wales example to demonstrate his bigotry.

Blimey, the bigotry bar in Chateau Charles (or is it the Bell tower?) is set pretty low. My mild irritation when people write 'your' when they actually mean 'you're' must blow the Bell bigotry threshold and make me a totalitarian oppressor up there with Kim Jong-un, albeit with a better haircut, but just as intolerant.

There is no need to correct anyone's grammar/punctuation on an internet forum in which proofreading is not requested unless the meaning is unclear. Doing so invariably means you have nothing else, or ever anything relevant, to say. Similarly, Corra's constantly carping her feminist messaging when she feels the need to do so is rude.

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(186 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:
njc wrote:

Well, if you insist on pulling the Bell chain, you're going to get gonged.

Let it drop already.

Drop what? A clanger?

If Bell wants to take that tone with me and the Josey Wales, then bring it on. I'll have no one say that I snuck out.

The tone was invoked when you claimed:

Having distinct US colloquial origins, to a British/English ear the word 'snuck' evokes sensations of banjo music and hillbilly imagery.

This includes three false statements. (1) "snuck" is not a U.S. colloquialism; (2) just because British English evolved in some ways away from English spoken in the rest of the world does not make it the correct English; (3) evoking sensations... etc. is something a pretentious twat says.

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corra wrote:

pc-approved bigotry

And there it is! Projecting. EVERY time.

man-hating, anti-white bigotry is now pc-approved bigotry, and because within that sphere -- which is the belief that "feminism" has had any political validity beyond coercion to take from some to give to others for two generations -- you are such a bigot, and any simple topic of discussion like "sneaked" vs. "snuck" has elicited here significantly the very same bigotry that created modern feminism to create official approval of "sneaked" and disapproval of "snuck" a century ago because only those people, those anti-feminist, traditionalist, Southern-U.S. people, use "snuck."

corra wrote:

No, what I mean is that I object to someone making fun oi the way I speak and write that is, in fact, proper and fine English, and on top of that he bluffs his way on purported facts that are his juvenile (or might it be senile?)  "mis-rememberings."

He was actually speaking to me in the last part you reference. Not you.

No, he can't be so in a public forum. I informed him that his entire contribution to the discussion was worthless because sneaked v.s snuck never came up in his Josey Wales example to demonstrate his bigotry.

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Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

And are you so reduced to blubbering that you feel  the need to point out typos?

I guess that you'd know best what bigots say.

Yes, I do -- of the sort who think that their pc-approved bigotry is something good.

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(186 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:

Here is the foreigners view;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P0RpzzN5XY

What is not mentioned, because it was a bonehead Oxfordian mistake from the beginning, is that "leak" and "sneak" were not at all pronounced the same in the Middle Ages until after the Great Vowel Shift 1400-1600 and still not in Northern parts of GB.Leak had a short-e vowel sound and sneak had a long-i/ay sound (the same as "snake" was pronounced then), and so the business is about bad spelling and not that "sneaked"/snuck should have ever conformed with "leaked."

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(186 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

No, what I mean is that I object to someone making fun oi the way I speak and write that is, in fact, proper and fine English,..

We are all objects of fun Charles. Especially in the eyes of foreigners.  Oi the way you speak is correct within oi own tribe. Gibberish is a language too.

"We are all objects of fun." Isn't that what bigots say -- where "we" means "you?"

And are you so reduced to blubbering that you feel  the need to point out typos?

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corra wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
Dill Carver wrote:

To some Americans there is only America. The universe of America

To all Americans who are Americans, that is.

No, no, Charles. That's not America you see around you. That's your ass. You've gotten your head stuck up there again.

Americans are out here, in the fresh air.

(He's not snuck, but he is stuck!) lol

What is important to this discussion, it appears, is that you cook and play the spinet well.

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Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
Dill Carver wrote:

And, ahem...  Germanic is NOT always a single, sharp syllable, and the alternative is a slippery one and half.

Perhaps you could stay on the subject: Snuck v. sneaked; wept v. weeped; lit v. lighted

The O.E. (Germanic) derived forms not the later "revised" modern forms of these verbs have a single, sharp syllable and not a slippery one and half (or more).

The single, sharp syllable and not a slippery one and half (or more) word that is sneikanan, the Germanic origin of the word sneak?

The O.E. snīcan like its German infinitive origin means "to sneak," related to "snake" before a vowel shift and is, again, an irrelevant rejoinder from you about the fact that "snuck" is a single, sharp syllable rather than a nucleus+sliding coda in "sneaked."

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Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

The O.E. (Germanic) derived forms not the later "revised" modern forms of these verbs have a single, sharp syllable and not a slippery one and half (or more).

I see. So within text and conversation you prefer to use the original Germanic derivatives like, angr for anger, flakka for flag, kaldaz for cold, kōuz for Cow, tækanan for undertake, prikojan for prick,  et al....

No, what I mean is that I object to someone making fun oi the way I speak and write that is, in fact, proper and fine English, and on top of that he bluffs his way on purported facts that are his juvenile (or might it be senile?)  "mis-rememberings."

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Dill Carver wrote:
Mariana Reuter wrote:

If you meant my name, Mr Charles F. Bell, I'm not American.

Kiss

Gacela

To some Americans there is only America. The universe of America

To all Americans who are Americans, that is.

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Dill Carver wrote:

Must be my hearing that's gone awry!


The Outlaw Josey Wales (1976)

Josey Wales: Seems like you was looking to gain some money here.
Lone Watie: Actually, I was looking to gain an edge. I thought you might be someone who would sneak up behind me with a gun.
Josey Wales: Where'd you ever get an idea like that? Besides it ain't supposed to be easy to sneak up behind an Indian
Lone Watie: I'm an Indian, all right; but here in the nation they call us the "civilized tribe". They call us "civilized" because we're easy to sneak up on. White men have been sneaking up on us for years.

Even the Josie Wales don't say 'snuck'!!

Maybe snuck will sneak into the 2018 remake.

Can you notice neither "sneaked" nor "snuck" is available to the reader in all this stuff you trot out here.

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Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

The old-style Germanic is always a single, sharp syllable, and the alternative is a slippery one and half.

And, ahem...  Germanic is NOT always a single, sharp syllable, and the alternative is a slippery one and half.

Perhaps you could stay on the subject: Snuck v. sneaked; wept v. weeped; lit v. lighted

The O.E. (Germanic) derived forms not the later "revised" modern forms of these verbs have a single, sharp syllable and not a slippery one and half (or more).

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Mariana Reuter wrote:

If you meant my name, Mr Charles F. Bell, I'm not American.

Kiss

Gacela

No, of course not. I assume you are a foreigner.

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(186 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Tom Oldman wrote:

How about "knelt" and "kneeled"?

~Tom

I think if an American author is consistent, and does not bump up against some publishing house editing standard on the matter, there is not a problem. If you're going to use "leapt" and "slept" then you should use "knelt."   Okay, how many Yankees really think "lighted" is better than "lit"? The old-style Germanic is always a single, sharp syllable, and the alternative is a slippery one and half.

Miss Midnight wrote:

Hi,

I've read a lot of these tips online, but I still find myself losing the battle with my tenses.

How do you guys keep from slipping between them?

What is "so 19th century" about 3rd person omniscient past-tense telling is strict adherence to one person---and this applies the 1st person limited narration, too --- telling of the story which, though natural, can tend to be tedious and predictable. It is now acceptable for an author to mix it up by interjecting inner thoughts and perceptions of more characters while still in the context of author's omniscient telling. Present tense effectively gives that in-the-moment personal feel to a character's telling. This is perspective writing. For example, in my Maximilian's Achilles and Patroclus (which is an experiment in alternate perspective writing) Alec is telling the story of a meeting between Chris and him in Hammock Park as if it has already happened, but Chris is telling the story -- a different story in a different, his own, perspective from that of Alec -- in the here and now.

I stood beside Pa’s Buick in Hammock Park in Ocean Ridge waiting. I was there because the men on the other side of the cameras let me. The Intracoastal Waterway and the cameras were the barrier-island town of Ocean Ridge’s moat against Boynton Beach. [etc.]

But two chapters later ... Chris on the same event ...

There in Hammock Park I wrap my arms around Alec and hug him not from strategy but from pure destination; so he is surprised, and I am happy to have my friend back if only for that moment to remember the day when we were twelve fighting together. [etc.] 

So what I am suggesting that you try as an exercise is to write short piece from one character's POV in past tense and then the same event from another POV of a character, also part of the event, in the present tense, as if it was still going on, almost like a running commentary.

I find a whole story written in the present tense annoying, at the very least for the reasons in the article I cited -- it is limiting to absurdity, but if tense change is treated like a spice added cautiously, it can add an appealing flavor.

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rhiannon wrote:

Just to be insane:  write a story backwards.  You know, time's arrow is reversed.  Examples would be the Sliders Episode where they begin on death row, and proceed to the trial, the arrest, the murder.  Merlin's life might be another, as he went through time backwards.

The talented Chris Nolan made a movie Momento on that premise, but in spite of cinematic tricks to inform the audience that the story was being done backwards that a novelist cannot do, it suffered the same fundamental flaw of being weighed down by too much backstory.  I wrote a short story posted here as The Legend of Keegan Perieres that ends with the backstory four times as long as the rest to explain what just happened (sort of). I doubt there is any TNBW judge to appreciate the literary artistic merit of such effort because the formulaic process of writing commercial fiction is so violated.

(1) President dies.
(2) Shot is fired.
(3) Keegan finds a starter pistol while packing up his house.

Causality is violated both in time linearity and on how the President dies - 1 & 2&3 are actually unconnected.