251

(43 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

corra wrote:
Temple Wang wrote:

I'd say appealing to God for funds is a better way than appealing to the members of a website that we pay monthly to be on.  I get enough pitches on email to buy this and buy that and give to this poor soul and give to that poor soul.  I get it from beggars on the street too, and on the phone and text messages, yadayadaya.   I don't need to hear it here where I pay good money not to be bombarded by advertising and people begging money for their book. Why wait until it's a problem?  And why encourage soliciting for money?   It's a bad idea, bad precedent.

(add) [delete]

*I don't need to [here] (hear) it here*

Professional courtesy. smile

Thanks.  Add a comma before the "but".  Returning the favor.

252

(43 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

SolN wrote:

Are you joking?

You have my email address.  Let's take if off line.

253

(43 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

SolN wrote:

Then maybe this site is not the right place for you.

You sure that's where you want to take this?

254

(43 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

SolN wrote:

I see no problem at all with someone who has developed their book on the site putting out a call for some help promoting the book. In fact, I encourage it.

Let's worry about 1000s of promo threads if that happens. We can always find a solution.

Sol

I'd say appealing to God for funds is a better way than appealing to the members of a website that we pay monthly to be on.  I get enough pitches on email to buy this and buy that and give to this poor soul and give to that poor soul.  I get it from beggars on the street too, and on the phone and text messages, yadayadaya.   I don't need to hear it here where I pay good money not to be bombarded by advertising and people begging money for their book. Why wait until it's a problem?  And why encourage soliciting for money?   It's a bad idea, bad precedent.

255

(43 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

mikira (AKA KLSundstrom) wrote:

I had asked SolN -  I really didn't want to have to bring him into this. - but it appears that I have to - if I could let people know that I had started this Kickstarter project. And he had graciously said that I could. But even though I had asked I was hesitant to write a post about it in the forum. While Tom and I communicated about this, he on his own, after checking out the project for himself decided he wanted to start this thread to help me spread the word. I think he had figured out that even though I had asked SolN if it was okay, that I would be too self-conscious to start the thread.

Even though some of you think that all I've done was self-promotion, since I've returned to this site. You are sadly, mistaken. In fact it's too bad all - well at least I think all of the very old posts are gone - when SolN migrated everything to this new and improved website. Because you would have realized I had been very helpful to many people during my past membership, in fact so much so that I didn't have time to write the novels I was working on at that time. And it was the forum that we had used to call for reviews.

So, you have no problem if a thousand people do this?  I don't doubt you've been helpful.  But this is not the let's donate to Mikira's Kickstarter Forum.  Where does it end?  It's not personal. It's a bad precedent, that's my point.

256

(43 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

Or limit self-promotion to a single, designated thread?

Or using the site-designated method of Bookshelves to promote your book:
http://www.thenextbigwriter.com/member/ … -bookshelf

257

(43 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Tom Oldman wrote:

So, Temple and Dags, you see this as SELF-promotion?  Check closely at who started this thread. It was I who decided I'd like to help.  Blow off steam at me if you will, but don't blame anyone else.

~Tom

This is not the first post.  The first one was of the self-promotion type, subtly disguised.  This one utilizes a different approach, but it was leveraged well by Mikira.  People that do this, use whatever tactics they see fit.  So, either you were complicit in this, or you weren't.  Don't matter to me.  I just prefer not to be pitched to on the Forum.  Lots of people will disagree, some will agree.  I don't care if people disagree with me or not.  I think the Forum is not the place for promoting your own work or promoting your buddy's work as a segue for self promotion.  In fact, most forums have guidelines on this so they don't turn into advertising zones. If it wasn't me that would be irked by this, it would be someone else --- just another reason for nipping this in the bud before it goes off the rails, as it will no likely do -- probably before the day is out.  I've flagged the thread, and hopefully Sol will step in and redirect promotion (self or otherwise) to a better place than the forum.

All you have to do to understand the logic of this is just extend it out - if everyone chose to do this, it would turn the Forum into a mosh pit of advertising/promotion.

I'm on another website of this ilk where the focus is on small workgroups.  There are no big groups.  It's a very intimate experience, and I like it a lot.  However, my problem with it, is that it doesn't allow me enough throughput.  I am in the midst of a novel rewrite and I can easily post a Chapter every four of five days.  I will never find a group that can deal with that kind of volume and provide effective reviews.  I have solved this by being a member of several groups, and I use this website for my less refined work.

With that as background, what I have seen in Groups is they get difficult to manage over a certain size if you really want a disciplined approach as you are proposing.  You also need VERY committed people, or you end up with a handful doing all the heavy lifting both in terms of submission and reviews.  Also, without some kind of boundaries on subject matter, if you leave it wide open, you'll get such a wide variety of work that I think some people will get disinterested.  For example, your historical fiction buff might not be too interested in the writer doing LGBT YA Vampire Fantasy stories. 

In your prior case, you had people meeting face to face, and that puts pressure on people to fulfill their commitments.  When you have people spread all over the world, people get less committed and tend to come in and out. 

These are kind of random thoughts aimed at making you consider other parameters and think about how you can sustain commitment from people.  In my experience, the best Groups I have been in are ones where the goals between the people are more aligned.  The ones that tend to fail are where the goals are disparate.

259

(43 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Rosie Zander wrote:

I don't see any problem with this type of request in the forums. Isn't that what they are for? Good grief, they can't just be to log issues with the site. I'd go mad. I would hope this community would want to help its fellow members in a writing-related project.

I do concur with Jack though and wonder why you need to raise money to publish a book. Today there are so many free options that money is not a factor in getting published.

So, if one thousand members did this, you wouldn't have a problem with it?

Memphis Trace wrote:
Linda Lee wrote:
Memphis Trace wrote:

I would like for there to be a vigorous discussion of how to set this up.

I hope members will continue to converse off site with whoever they care to, but I would like all the work of this group to be available for the TNBW public to view. I would also like it if everybody in the group would say every thoughtful thing they have to say where every other member can get the benefit of it.

I really hope by the time this group is set up that it can be said that I chose no one. I'd love it if the next 13 writers (besides you and I) who show interest in this group, became Charter Members. I think a vigorous process of hammering out the ground rules will make the final group self-choosing. I am also not opposed to letting the group grow a little beyond my suggested 15 should there be questions about who got here 1st.

Right now, you're No. 1.

Memphis

Good deal. When are you planning on starting? My work schedule is going to be hell for the next two weeks--after which I have a nice long stretch of time to devote to this.

I've copied and pasted this call for members into a forum posting inside the group I formed. Two folks have already asked to join in the discussion to start the group. I think it makes sense to discuss the ground rules in that forum. What do you think? One of the folks asked that I do that. The temporary name of the group is TBD (To be determined). I think to enter that forum, you must ask to join the group.

I doubt that your hectic of schedule for the next two weeks will be much of an issue.

My guess is that it will take us longer than two weeks to agree on our rules of engagement. I'm guessing that popping in and out will suffice. Nobody is going to start submitting work until we've voted on the rules. And to my way of thinking, it ought to be at least a 3/4s vote to accept our rules before we launch. And then members against ought to have the chance to withdraw and allow anyone else who wanted to join the approved rules to opt in.

I'd love to at least launch this endeavor with the unanimous and enthusiastic approval of the members.

Memphis

Memphis,
FYI, you can add a link in responses like this that will take people to that new group
http://www.thenextbigwriter.com/group-tbd-61

261

(43 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

mikira (AKA KLSundstrom) wrote:

Thank you Bill - oops I mean Tom for posting this in the forum. I really, really appreciate it.

By the way, since I work from home on Tuesdays and Thursdays I posted two more chapters of my novel. 

I want to add that I have loved the tNBW community since I became a member back in 2006. I know some of my original friends are no longer members of this site. But everyone, from the people who reviewed the stories I put up back when I started on the site, to the people I was able to review, had helped me become the writer that I've become today. You may never understand how truly grateful I would be if you decide like Tom decided, that this novel I want to get published, deserves to be published and make the decision to help fund my campaign.

Oh and Tom didn't mention I designed some awesome gifts to send all my supporters if I get successfully funded.

Here's a link to my novel if you'd like to leave me a review: http://www.thenextbigwriter.com/content … /version/0

I don't think the forum is the place for self-promotion.   It's like a litterbug that thinks - well, if I throw down this one piece of trash, it really doesn't make a difference.  I say -  think about it this way - if every member of the website decided to hit the Forum and beg to be reviewed, the Forum would turn into one big slum of self-promotion/advertising.  I think this is especially relevant here when Mikira has already said she wants these reviews gratis because she's not going to have time to review in kind.  I appreciate you have your own personal needs, but I'd appreciate your not using the Forums for advertising and begging reviews - and certainly not for begging money and bribing with gifts.  This is the second post you have made on the Forum for self-promotion.  I hope you'll respect the users and not make a habit of it as you pursue your mission.

1.    During week 1: 14 members receive a work with 5 of the members assigned to review it.
2.    During week 2: 5 different members review the work and review the reviews submitted by the first 5 members.
3.    During week 3: 4 remaining members and the author review all the reviews and all the reviews of the reviews.

How many people are submitting works simultaneously?

263

(212 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

Not a request, a question: Does the new site have the 5,000 word/chapter limit?

No

264

(212 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

With one person at a time, it's still possible to allow back-and-forth comments and replies.  Is that also something you'd like to be able to shut off?  It would mean shutting off the ability of a reviewer to put up additional, no-reward reviews.

I'm ambivalent regarding that. My issue is with uninvited  third parties butting into a dialogue between what should be a writer and a reviewer trying to work through issues. If some people want to have comments as open season, fine, but give us the ability to turn off the noise and be one on one with our reviewer.

265

(212 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

dagnee wrote:

I just want to deal with one person at a time.
big_smile

My sentiments precisely.

266

(212 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Norm d'Plume wrote:

Personally, I would prefer such an opt in/opt out button to default to opt in. I always prefer as much feedback as possible. Perhaps you have to be a group member to post? I never saw mass invasions in the old site when people posted an Additional Feedback thread for their work. What I saw were constructive discussions. We're becoming increasingly siloed on this site.

As always, I'm sure I can make it work, whatever Sol decides.

Dirk

I don't feel strongly about the default as long as I can have a button to turn off the unwanted noise if I choose to.

267

(212 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

dagnee wrote:
njc wrote:

So for you it's okay if a review becomes a thread, so long as it is with one author?

NJC,
I still don't understand what you mean. So I think I should just restate what I mean.

I want to be able to opt out of forum like discussions attached to my work by default. I want to communicate only with the reviewer, and I want to communicate only with the writer about my reviews.

Just give me an off button, that's all.

I hope that was clear.

dags big_smile

I second this.  In an intimate Group where five people are scrutinizing each other's work regularly, this could be beneficial to have a continuous forum-like thread on individual comments, but in a large group with hundreds of members, this makes no sense at all in my opinion.  Four ladies sitting at a coffee shop can have a nice discussion, but if 200 people walking by on the street are invited to join in at will at any point, it becomes a potential problem.  It is completely solved with an opt-out feature (off button). 

In fact, to open up the discussion of a review/comment "outside the writer and reviewer" should be an "opt in" function, not an "opt out" function (off button).  So, the default should be "no open discussion beyond the writer/reviewer" unless you (the writer) turns on that function.

268

(342 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

jack the knife wrote:
Temple Wang wrote:

When you highlight a passage and make a comment, then decide later you want to delete the comment, you can delete the text of the comment, but the highlight remains.  This shouldn't be.  In addition to being a visual glitch, if you decide you want to then highlight another section that includes the deleted section, you can't, because you can't select text already highlighted.  When you delete a comment, the highlighting should go and it should be fully deleted.

Yes, that's an annoyance, and it would be nice if the highlighted areas would also be deleted along with the unwanted comment, but no biggie. It just requires an additional comment to explain such to the author.

That's not the primary problem.  If I highlight three words, make a comment, then delete it, then decide I want to make a comment that requires highlighting the sentence, I can't, because you can't double highlight something.  Yeah, you can work around it, but it's a glitch and it's been around for a long time, it's illogical, it shouldn't be difficult to fix—and it should be fixed, not worked around.  I run into this several times in each in line review.

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(342 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

When you highlight a passage and make a comment, then decide later you want to delete the comment, you can delete the text of the comment, but the highlight remains.  This shouldn't be.  In addition to being a visual glitch, if you decide you want to then highlight another section that includes the deleted section, you can't, because you can't select text already highlighted.  When you delete a comment, the highlighting should go and it should be fully deleted.

270

(212 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

SolN wrote:

I don't see this site's primary mission to foment forum discussions, but rather to help authors fine-tune their writing. In the process, discussions will occur, friendships will be made, but it is all done under the framework of helping one another become better writers.

Thanks,
Sol

Amen.....

271

(212 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

janet reid wrote:

*hobbles away with a melting wax shoe on one foot*

How's that spleen feeling after the purge?  All better now?  Good.  Glad I could be of service.  Anytime.

272

(212 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

corra wrote:
Temple Wang wrote:

... I nominate "whinge" as the first Word of the Day
whinge
v.
"to complain peevishly," British, informal or dialectal, ultimately from the northern form of Old English hwinsian, from Proto-Germanic *khwinisojan (cf. Old High German winison, German winseln), from root of Old English hwinan "to whine" (see whine (v.)). Related: Whinged ; whinging.
*curtseys* and *goes back to critiquing, because she finds the site quite good and is impressed with Sol's efforts to accommodate, especially in light of so much tempest in his TNBW teacup*

A year or so ago, Sol asked existing members for feedback about what worked/didn't work (in our view) as the new site was cooking. He asked again as the new site was headed to launch, and has repeatedly said that he appreciates candor as it helps him make improvements. He doesn't agree with it all, but the feedback helps him make decisions. Linda is continuing that discussion now that she's tried out the new site long enough to perceive a few of the rough patches on her end. What you perceive as "whinging" is a conversation in which you have stumbled unawares.

Linda has the rare talent of being direct without ever slipping into spite. You might benefit from the example.

Cora,
Thanks for your assistance in helping me distinguish between whinging and making legitimate requests for items to be added to the site.  I have no beef with Linda. In fact, Linda's original post made a great legitimate suggestion for a wish list.  I suggest you go to the top of this thread and check out the first person to respond to Linda's idea, you will find it was me, concurring with her recommendation. I have been following it since it started, have read every post, and have contributed when I felt it appropriate--so I didn't "stumble unawares" on anything. That said, much of what has been going on in this thread recently is not related to legitimate requests for items to wish list, but old timers on the site bemoaning change and turning it into a bitch-list, as was aptly observed by someone else.

273

(212 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

janet reid wrote:
Temple Wang wrote:

Sol, old friend.  I think you should change your name to Job (of the Book of Job fame).  I have an item for your wish list.  Let's have a Word of the Day

To get the ball rolling, I nominate "whinge" as the first Word of the Day
whinge
v.
"to complain peevishly," British, informal or dialectal, ultimately from the northern form of Old English hwinsian, from Proto-Germanic *khwinisojan (cf. Old High German winison, German winseln), from root of Old English hwinan "to whine" (see whine (v.)). Related: Whinged ; whinging.
*curtseys* and *goes back to critiquing, because she finds the site quite good and is impressed with Sol's efforts to accommodate, especially in light of so much tempest in his TNBW teacup*

Love your idea Temple!!!  Although I (for one) was going for melodramatic  sad 

Jokes aside ...

I fail to see any bitching or whinging in this thread (but that's me).  I have noticed that some would like to see what had made the old site so great, and wasn't copied across, incorporated here as well.  And I have also noticed new members that had made suggestions based on what other sites they are members of are doing that would improve TNBW.  It's a good mix of suggestions, and it would likely result in a better outcome compared to if only one group was allowed to have their say/way.  And Sol is doing pretty good in my opinion to maintain that balance.  So hat's off to him.

And yes, we should probably thank Sol much more for all his hard work, even if it may be hard to really express our heartfelt appreciation in words (well, at least for me).  But somehow I suspect that Sol knows it is appreciated.

He had Cinderella sit down, and, putting the slipper to her foot, he found that it went on very easily, fitting her as if it had been made of wax.

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(212 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Sol, old friend.  I think you should change your name to Job (of the Book of Job fame).  I have an item for your wish list.  Let's have a Word of the Day

To get the ball rolling, I nominate "whinge" as the first Word of the Day
whinge
v.
"to complain peevishly," British, informal or dialectal, ultimately from the northern form of Old English hwinsian, from Proto-Germanic *khwinisojan (cf. Old High German winison, German winseln), from root of Old English hwinan "to whine" (see whine (v.)). Related: Whinged ; whinging.
*curtseys* and *goes back to critiquing, because she finds the site quite good and is impressed with Sol's efforts to accommodate, especially in light of so much tempest in his TNBW teacup*

275

(212 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Rosie Zander wrote:

Hi Dirk. Thanks  for the welcome. It's great to be here smile. For what it's worth, I like all of your suggestions. I think wishlists are great. But as a writer, I wanted to make a statement about what appears to me, as a newbie, to see some of this as a bitch list. It is the first thread I read when I came to the site so I was a bit surprised. Especially since I have enjoyed my experience so far. Reading through this though, you'd think the site sucked and was falling apart.

Amen....