Janet, you can start at B1 Ch20.  There's a lot to rework, but a lot that should come through.  There will be a lot of resequencing between the threads, and I haven't changed the spelling of Mamma's name yet in most of them.

I'm trying to introduce a lot of background stuff so that it doesn't feel like asspull.  On the other hand, certain species of fiction can get away with a lot of it.  Kate Paulk's Vampire Con series is full of it. 

Both elder werewolves returned the bow.  "Thank you for your aid ... we are in your debt."

Oh, damn.  I had forgotten about pack honor.  They'd have a burr up their tails until they got a chance to do me an equal favor.

  (ConFur)

It also has an angel with a paramour--who happens to be a succubus.

Even Vole will be impressed.

To answer the last paragraph: Because people, with the exception of a few nihilists, need to find and understand a moral order in the world.

As to Haidt and Moral Foundations Theory being the wrong approach: Is that because they are in error?  Or because they are incomplete in some way?  Do they lack predictive power?  Are their answers likely to mislead?

My exerience of Engineering School,  many years ago, taught me that a given situation may be described by multiple levels of theory, each one more complete but also more difficult than the one before.  If circuit theory will provide an accurate description, you don't need to invoke transmission line theory--and transmission line theory will make it harder to grasp the system's behavior intuitively than the simpler theory.

Thank you.

No, just a little backstory.  Okay, maybe a lot of backstory.  Just don't try to archive-binge it in one sitting unless you plan on sitting for a long time.  But the story is exquisitely worked out, and the Foglios don't stop at cranking it up to eleven or twelve.  Depending on which part of the story they are in, they go to twenty-three or thirty-seven, and you won't get all the jokes--or clues--on the first pass.

Hey, I think I was the first to mention it here.

Janet (AJ) Reid wrote:

Love girlgenius! smile

This has to be the most brilliantly designed story page I've ever seen.  Look how it uses the natural progression of eye movement for the progressive reveal.  Phil Foglio is part Spark himself.  (And their current color artist, Cheyenne Wright, is a full Spark.)

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

... second level understanding it means that faith does not require ostentation, and contrariwise puritans were sometimes rather showy about their lack of ostentation, so good at demonstrating their goodness, and the modern liberal, the social-justice warrior, has that annoying puritan inheritance.   ...

Interesting.  A day or two ago I was mulling Haidt and Moral Foundations Theory.

Now, I've got a pair of dots to introduce, and then to connect.

A brief summary, backwards:  Haidt is a modern, social sciences academic who pulled the rug out from under himself.  To verify his ideas, he and his students devised a questionnaire.  Its most famous question is (paraphrased) "Your beloved dog has been hit by a car.  One of your children suggests eating it.  Do you think this is a good idea?"  But wait, there's more ...

Haidt and his students gave the questionnaire to a large number of people, asking also if they were liberal or conservative.  After they filled it out, they were given a second, identical copy, with the instructions that if they were liberal, they should fill it out as they believed a conservative would, and if they were conservative, they should fill it out as though a liberal would.

So ... how did liberals and conservatives do in answering in each others' shoes?  The liberals did poorly, with answer ranges all over the map.  The conservatives did well--not perfectly, but well.

Haidt was testing an idea with this: That there is a set of moral principles more or less common to human nature, and that conservatives care about one subset, and liberals care about another.  But here's the kicker, and Haidt has the numbers to back it: Conservatives care about all six of the categories that Haidt identified, and modern liberals only care about two--and cannot recognize the other four, so that any balancing of interests between their two and the other four looks to them like moral abdication.

The six foundations are

  • Caring vs. Harm

  • Fairness vs. Cheating

  • Liberty vs. Oppression

  • Loyalty vs. Betrayal

  • Authority vs. Subversion

  • Sanctity vs. Degradation

This is a capsule summary, and omits detail.  For example, Haidt links kindness with caring, and respect with authority.  (Haidt's work, and conclusions, are described in his book The Righteous Mind.)

Here's dot one: The Wikipedia article lists the last three of these as 'group-forming'.

Dot two is 'virtue signalling', which is succinctly captured here.  The idea is that many of the things the Left calls for are not based on moral analysis, but on the need to prove that they are Left-pure of heart.  Yesterday's Oppressed is today's Oppressor, and yesterday's Victim is today's Victimizer.  Celebrities charter wide-body aircraft to take their entourages to global warming conferences.  Concerts are given to help the poor when the real fix is fixing laws that prevent people from earning a living.

Dot connection:  Here's the kicker--virtue signalling is a loyalty mechanism.  It's an instinctive (or, as Haidt would say, intuitive) reaction, stemming from the way human nature works.

Even as they reject the virtues they don't understand, they are adhering to them.

Cat-burglar-nip

Most of what I know of Harris is the World_Historical Gamble analysis.  It, and especially the Fantasy Ideology component of it, seem to me to address things not addressed elsewhere.  Whether they are correct or not is, of course, a different question.

It's true that Harris draws on an observation by Marx to illuminate part of the analysis.  But that component is small enough that it can be true even if Marx's larger analyses are false, even grossly false.

So, is Harris right, or near right, or right-as-far-as-he-goes, in his claims on the points of Fantasy Ideology and non-Clausewitean actors?   These seem to me to be his major contributions.

I'm slacking off ... by going over the old Darwin Awards.  The site's less busy than it used to be, but if Amy hasn't read it, she should.  There are a lot of interesting ER stories.

Fascinating essay by Lee Harris.  It's not the first place he's used this idea--the first place I saw it, years ago, was in the World-Historical Gamble essay.  But the idea that there is a force that cannot be bent to reason, driving non-Clausewitzean conflicts, is important enough that if it is true, there is no way to face the problem without acknowledging the idea.

1,613

(1,528 replies, posted in Fantasy/Magic & Sci-Fi)

(Knocks head on table to clear it.)  I was just getting the tendrils of a translinear (see WikiP) distraction out of my head and getting back to Maurand, Day 2, when a new aspect/angle hit me.  It should show up in the part of Book 2 I'm trying to get done.

1,614

(1,217 replies, posted in Fantasy/Magic & Sci-Fi)

Sounds like you're better off with the warped space bubbles.

corra wrote:
njc wrote:

"With all thy getting, get understanding."  ---the KJV by way of Malcom S. Forbes.

"Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom."

I think those are the same quote, from different versions.  If not, what is wisdom but a true understanding, of what can and should be done, as well as what is?  Practical wisdom is, after all, one of the four cardinal virtues, all of equal importance.

There are times to discuss the motives and purposes of your opponent in debate.  But the purpose should never be to cut off debate.  The proper way to close debate is to find stasis (with a short, hard 'a').  That's the place where you another your opponent can agree on the places where you disagree, and will not be convinced by debate.  If they are issues on which evidence might speak, so much the better.

That goes after one part of the chain.  The start of the chain is the ideal of violent jihad.  Discredit the idea and the problem fades away.

I watched Ryan Mauro, principal of the Clarion Project, try to speak to a town council not far from where I live.  A mosque was requesting variances to expand.  Mauro wanted to speak--on the record--with the information that the mosque's principal was listed as an unindicted co-conspirator in the 9/11 atrocity.  The schedule was manipulated to ensure that Mauro's statement could only be given on a 'to-be-continued' date when, with his full schedule, he could not attend.

Note that adults, with formed and secure world-views, are rarely indoctrinated.  The targets and victims are young people.  There are a lot of angles on this, including the idea that self-destruction expiates the sin of having enjoyed the forbidden pleasure being destroyed.

If we would regard ISIS and its sister organizations as states, even nascent and usurping states, we could take Newt Gingrich's recent suggestion that anyone who swears allegiance to such an entity has, by giving allegiance to a foreign power, forsaken his American citizenship.  (Note that Grant never addressed officers of the Confederacy by that name, because it would recognize that entity in law.  Letters demanding surrender were addressed to Commander of the Army now .....)

1,617

(1,217 replies, posted in Fantasy/Magic & Sci-Fi)

If these starlanes were created by a dead race, what s Prof Hinkley's role?  Did he rediscover and improve the ancient tech?

How would that have prevented the Orlando shooting?

What, you're the privy councillor?

Then a villian escaped into the real world, a villian strong enough to destroy reality itself.

Actually, Earth-Mother and Sky-Father might not be so far off.  The dragons are creatures of Nature's power.  The humans give form and direction to that power.

In fairness, there are Muslim groups speaking out against the warrior readings of their sacred texts.  The Clarion Project has a page with a list.  Given how firmly tCP and its principal speak out against the aggressors, I think the list is reliable.  There's an interview by tCP with the principal of the Center for Islamic Pluralism which does not go in depth into why he (a Sufi) and others believe that the warrior reading of those texts is wrong.

From The Passive Guy, studies that show that indeed you write as you read, in second languages as well as your milk tongue.

Actually, it's Hariseldon who becomes the valuable resource.  What happens when he's given pickled chilies ... well, that's the play.

"With all thy getting, get understanding."  ---the KJV by way of Malcom S. Forbes.