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Re: Savior of the Damned (the Connor series) by Dirk B.

God's statement is factually correct. The Bible is full of verses that require careful interpretation to avoid misunderstanding their meaning. Revelation, itself, is drowning in figurative language that will never be understood with 100% certainty. Are those falsehoods? Satan is supposed to be brilliant. All he had to do was ask what that means. Being the arrogant s--t that he is, he assumed God intended to humiliate him rather than burn him. Even if Satan knew his fate might be a black hole, he at least has a chance to avoid that fate and end up ruling Earth. As opposed to being burned alive for eternity. If it were me, I'd go ahead with the challenge. The real reason it's not clearly spelled out is because I want to withhold that potential fate from the reader as a surprise for when it actually happens.

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Re: Savior of the Damned (the Connor series) by Dirk B.

Revelation, itself, is drowning in figurative language that will never be understood with 100% certainty. Are those falsehoods?

Yes if they are written intentionally to be misunderstood.

For example, it the verse says "Christ will return" but the true meaning is "He will return but not in this dimension" I'd call that being lied to

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Re: Savior of the Damned (the Connor series) by Dirk B.

How about if the verse says "He'll come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven," and he returns as a boy (like my first draft)? He's still flesh, blood, and bone, which is what he was when he left. He's still God. He's just not yet an adult, which I believe is a requirement to satisfy some of the verses about his return, so the Second Coming might not begin until he grows up, floats up into the sky, and returns on a fluffy cloud with a host of angels.

Or, what if the author of your verse was writing a prophecy during the Middle Ages and was trying to keep from being burned at the stake for heresy for suggesting that he will return but not in this dimension? It would still be factual to write he will return. And since God never lies, the interpretation of that would be: God didn't lie. He spoke in riddles to confuse the "authorities." And if we get the interpretation wrong, that's our fault, not his. We're too limited to understand it all.

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Re: Savior of the Damned (the Connor series) by Dirk B.

"He'll come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven," and he returns as a boy (like my first draft)?

This seems fair. He ultimately came back and didn't come back to some other "me". The state he left in changed from man to boy but "same" is ambiguous wrt which verb is modifies

author of your verse was writing a prophecy during the Middle Ages and was trying to keep from being burned at the stake for heresy for suggesting that he will return but not in this dimension? It would still be factual to write he will return.

This seems like a falsehood. Granted, one brought about by extenuating circumstances. We might say well this is clerical error and not God's being non-factual, which dodges the culpability. A bargain between God & Satan where Satan does not know all the rules cannot be accounted for by misinterpretation or by human fallacy

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Re: Savior of the Damned (the Connor series) by Dirk B.

was writing a prophecy during the Middle Ages and was trying to keep from being burned at the stake for heresy for suggesting

Or... an alternative view is: One expects the author of the verse to die for the truth, not fib a little to escape his doom

Re: Savior of the Damned (the Connor series) by Dirk B.

Dirk B wrote:

Notes r.e. the Last Challenge:

- The ending of Revelation (Satan et al are cast into the Lake of Fire) is merely a warning, not a certain outcome. In other words, change your ways, or this is what will happen to you. That's the other reason John didn't write about the challenge: Revelation is just a warning of what could happen, in this case of what could happen with no Last Challenge.

To be continued...

What? Just a warning? No, it's definite.

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Re: Savior of the Damned (the Connor series) by Dirk B.

>> What? Just a warning? No, it's definite.

In the meeting in the year 430 after Rome receives the documents supposedly written by Augustine on his deathbed, the Last Challenge is described as being about corruption in the Church. Specifically, Satan is said to have claimed in the late first century that, by the End Times, the Church will be so corrupt that Christ will not find even one priest worthy of Heaven. That ruse is used by Satan because it supports the narrative that the Emissary is holy and has come to purge the Church of corruption. In reality, it allows Connor to purge the Church of his enemies (real priests still dedicated to God).

So, when Satan, who is in the meeting as a corporeal, discusses the Last Challenge, he explains to the others that, since God accepted the Last Challenge, there is no way the existing ending of Revelation can describe what will actually happen since it does not account for the events related to the challenge. In fact, it was the existing ending of Revelation that led Satan to issue the challenge. He adds that, had it been mentioned in Revelation, along with the likely outcome (God wins), Satan would never have issued the challenge. So, regardless of what John of Patmos wrote, Satan would have done something different to try to "change" the ending.

So, were John's ending "real", Satan would have invalidated it simply by issuing the Last Challenge (assuming God accepted). Although there is precedent in the Bible to change a "prophecy" (the people of Nineveh escaped destruction in the Book of Jonah), for now, I'm going to have Satan go with the argument that Revelation's ending is just a warning, so i don't need to justify how my ending could possibly change one of the biggest prophecies in the Bible. Technically, one could argue that Jonah's prophecy was also just a warning, so no prophecy was actually altered.

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Re: Savior of the Damned (the Connor series) by Dirk B.

Kdot wrote:

was writing a prophecy during the Middle Ages and was trying to keep from being burned at the stake for heresy for suggesting

Or... an alternative view is: One expects the author of the verse to die for the truth, not fib a little to escape his doom

Isn't that exactly what John of Patmos did?

1,459 (edited by Kdot 2025-11-23 07:07:52)

Re: Savior of the Damned (the Connor series) by Dirk B.

Here's a different angle on it. Please forgive it's a tongue-in-cheek variation of Abraham/Isaac:

Example:

Man: Please God, my wife and I are trapped on my roof, and the flood waters are rising. Please rescue us.
Voice from Heaven: I hear you, faithful servant. If you will prove your faith by sacrificing your wife, I will grant you both eternal life.
(Scream)
Man: I've done it. You'll resurrect her and grant us both eternal life?
Voice from Heaven: I just did! But to an alternate you in a different dimension. Bye, now. Have fun with the flood

What's happened in this example is the speaker is able to enter direct negotiation/discourse with God, unlike us trying to interpret scriptures. Eg: if the scripture says "Nation X will be fruitful and multiply" we implicitly understand not every individual will be fruitful and/or multiply. As the scripture doesn't (well, can't) single out Bob-From-New-York, then should Bob get into a fatal accident before Rapture, he couldn't claim essential facts were omitted.

Satan doesn't have this limitation if he can by-pass the scripture and have a direct-line. He's entering a negotiation where vital facts are being withheld with intent to trick him into losing.

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Re: Savior of the Damned (the Connor series) by Dirk B.

God Uses Deception as a Judgment (Biblical Examples)
However, the Bible contains specific instances where God is depicted as the agent of deception against those who have already rejected the truth, often as a form of judgment. These passages are the foundation for the "ethically wrong" argument: 
Sending a Delusion: Paul writes that for those who refuse to love the truth, God will send them "a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false" (2 Thessalonians 2:11). 
Deceiving Prophets: God is described as deceiving prophets who lead Israel astray as a judgment on the people who sought them out (Ezekiel 14:9; 1 Kings 22:23). 
The Hardening of the Heart: God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart, preventing him from agreeing to release the Israelites. This is a form of judicial action that prevents an already-willful person from seeing or accepting the truth.

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Re: Savior of the Damned (the Connor series) by Dirk B.

Out of morbid curiosity, was that Gemini? Mine usually gives more light-hearted answers which sound like a TV commercial instead of scholarly

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Re: Savior of the Damned (the Connor series) by Dirk B.

Yes, although it was part of a prolonged chat that went into the weeds. Mine often answers the ways yours does.