To view the PR as a good thing, the obvious conclusion is that 45,000 different denominations is also a good thing, hence my logic for the book that Satan can't conquer a denomination with no central figure to overthrow. Though Jesus prayed for unity, he also would have known what would eventually happen, and he didn't say Christians should remain forever unified under Peter and his successors.

His prayers are, of course, more than just a biography of important events in his life. Since he knew what would happen, his documented prayers are also his ongoing encouragement to readers of the Bible to remain unified. If Christians remain unified in their beliefs but not in who governs the Christian Church on Earth, does that mean Christ's prayers went unanswered?

I think the Christian faith is unified in the ways that matter most. You worship the same God, believe in the Trinity, the Resurrection, and the Virgin Birth, among other core beliefs, and you follow the teachings of the same Bible, more or less. And your faith can't be overthrown or corrupted as easily as a single Church hierarchy can.

Put all that together and the PR was a disaster one could blame on Satan. The fact that Christianity as a whole remains unified over core elements of the faith, suggests to me the outcome is actually a good thing. It seems like a great example of God using evil to do good.

Ultimately, it will be Satan who claims to be the cause of the PR, but the Catholic cardinal he converses with can point out that he's the Father of Lies and not necessarily to be believed, and the cardinal can make the counterarguments that I do above. Words to the effect: Satan, you may have caused the split, but God used it against you to create something even more indestructible.

The alternative would be to say that Satan wanted what has happened, including the 45000 different Protestant denominations, but that they will all come back together eventually. In fact, that's what Satan and Connor intend to do: conquer the biggest denomination, and then convert the rest back to Catholicism.

George, I'm curious as to your reaction to the part of the dialogue in 430 that mentions how Satan is going to try to further divide the Church with heretical ideas, and that a divided Church is a weakened Church, which is a view that almost certainly was considered true back then. After which the bishop murmurs to pray it does not splinter.

In the first draft of this story, the dark figure talks to one of his intended victims (the one that he let escape) and tells him how Satan didn't cause the Protestant-Catholic split, that it was the uptight (or whatever the dark figure called him) Martin Luther, who drove that.

In the second draft, I plan to have Satan take credit for the split, which is him working to undermine the Church by fostering any divisions he can. That's not to say the end result (Protestant Christianity) was bad, but i read previously that (some? many?) Catholics apparently still hold the view that you have to be Catholic to get to Heaven. Naturally, I need to verify the extent to which that viewpoint is still true. Since the primary target audience is Catholics, it's going to require navigating a bit of a minefield to give the Catholic viewpoint without insulting Protestants in the process.

I think the right solution for the story is to treat the split as something caused by Satan, but some character in the story will point out that God took Satan's evil and made it into a good thing: a network of 45,000 denominations that Satan cannot possibly conquer, unlike conquering the Catholic Church, which is accomplished by Connor becoming the Angelic Pope in addition to being the Emissary. Nevertheless, Connor will try to convert Protestants to Catholicism at the start of book two.

Thoughts?

Wow. Pick an easy topic! Audience is crucial so be careful about describing ML as uptight. However, it gets real tricky because I (a Protestant) personally believe that ML should NOT have split off. However, the Catholic Church had issues back then and I believe that ML fled for his life. I hang with Catholics spiritually and not just socially and they accept me just fine and I accept them. Perhaps, you can treat the Reformation as Satan working through both Catholics and Protestants. The same might be said of the Catholic/Orthodox split.

Vatican 2 accepts Protestants as not having the same level of truth as the Catholics. But this can get tricky when Catholics have mortal sins and Protestants do not. Do I need a priest to absolve me of something considered a mortal sin?
And this is from AI:
[The Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) marked a significant shift in the Catholic Church's approach to non-Catholic Christians, including Protestants. The Council did not condemn those outside the Roman Catholic Church but instead sought to engage in dialogue and foster understanding. It recognized the validity of the faith of Protestants, referring to them as "separated brethren"]

Your last paragraph is interesting, but unity is not achieved through division. And Jesus prayed for unity. Both sides sharing the responsibility for the splits might be the best way to go. But do not slam either side. Can you describe it as Satan simply played to their weaknesses?

Hope this helps.
George FLC

Although the forged Augustine documents made the untrue claim that the Emissary would be in "harmonious communion" with Christ, God could turn around and use that same concept with Connor and Adam.

Among several downsides to giving Connor his own soul, though, is that I would no longer be able to include the idea that, although, Satan demanded a soul from God for the Antichrist, Satan forgot to specify that he wanted a "new" soul, which is a key reason Connor is not the evil SOB that Satan genetically bred and trained him to be.

George, I'm curious as to your reaction to the part of the dialogue in 430 that mentions how Satan is going to try to further divide the Church with heretical ideas, and that a divided Church is a weakened Church, which is a view that almost certainly was considered true back then. After which the bishop murmurs to pray it does not splinter.

Thoughts?

My tribe book is partially based on this concept. Jesus prayed for all believers that they would be one (John 17:21). There are over 40,000 protestant denominations. Is that strengthening the church? I doubt it. I have a priest and protestant pastor working together. It will cause tensions and division.

I will continue shortly...

I like the idea of just Connor being a reincarnated being so that I'm not claiming reincarnation is a regular part of human existence and a valid part of Catholicism. Connor would be a unique case. That makes him both Adam (responsible along with Eve for the Fall) and (ultimately) the savior of the damned. A major drawback is that it means Adam's reincarnation is also the Antichrist, which may not sit well with some Catholics, even in a work of fiction.

In the first draft of this story, the dark figure talks to one of his intended victims (the one that he let escape) and tells him how Satan didn't cause the Protestant-Catholic split, that it was the uptight (or whatever the dark figure called him) Martin Luther, who drove that.

In the second draft, I plan to have Satan take credit for the split, which is him working to undermine the Church by fostering any divisions he can. That's not to say the end result (Protestant Christianity) was bad, but i read previously that (some? many?) Catholics apparently still hold the view that you have to be Catholic to get to Heaven. Naturally, I need to verify the extent to which that viewpoint is still true. Since the primary target audience is Catholics, it's going to require navigating a bit of a minefield to give the Catholic viewpoint without insulting Protestants in the process.

I think the right solution for the story is to treat the split as something caused by Satan, but some character in the story will point out that God took Satan's evil and made it into a good thing: a network of 45,000 denominations that Satan cannot possibly conquer, unlike conquering the Catholic Church, which is accomplished by Connor becoming the Angelic Pope in addition to being the Emissary. Nevertheless, Connor will try to convert Protestants to Catholicism at the start of book two.

Thoughts?

I think a Catholic reader will find that interesting (that the Angelic Pope dates back to that fictional meeting). Of course, at the end, comes the reveal of just how broad in scope Satan's plan was. At that point, the fact that the Unholy Trinity has conquered the Vatican/Catholic Church will be far more horrifying than what I've done with the Angelic Pope beliefs.

But now the question arises, do I really need the concept of the Emissary, which is of course total fiction based on nothing? Perhaps Satan should be setting up Connor as just the Angelic Pope in the meeting in 430 AD, after which Satan can ensure that fake private revelations come out starting in the Middle Ages. Then, when the modern pope's Council of Cardinal Advisors meets and sees that Augustine prophesied the coming of Connor sixteen hundred ago, he becomes a shoe-in a
Dirk

I am intrigued on how you can use this. Letting Satan claim the Angelic Pope was believed by Augustine would be strong for his fictional reality.

But I know a few Catholics and I asked a rather sincere one about the Angelic Pope. He didn't know about it. This could be tricky. Be careful about treating it like it's fictional as you stated above. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to approach it. To some it's unknown, to others it might be false, and to some it's real.

But my vote is to use the idea... until perhaps I understand more!
George FLC

One way to think of all this is: Satan is incredibly intelligent and a schemer, and if Catholics/Other Christians aren't careful, these are fictional examples of how far he could go. If he can subvert the Angelic Pope concept (by initiating and perpetuating it on Connor's behalf), imagine what else he can do in real life?

That brought to mind a series of Catholic private revelations that began in the Middle Ages, which remains popular among many Catholics to this day: the Angelic Pope (also the last pope, I believe, in one or more of those revelations). I modified chapter 3, to set the wheels in motion for that eventuality.

Dirk

I like the idea of the Angelic Pope. It's apparently already popular with some Catholics. BUT they might not like where you want to take it.
I found this and it's interesting:
With him will rule an 'Angelic' Pontiff, who will help him to restore what had been ravaged, and Catholic Tradition will once more flourish during a great Age of Peace, which will be the last and greatest period of the Church.  Heresies will cease and the Church will flourish like never before.  There will be only One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church under the Pope.  After this great era, the people will grow lax and return to their evil ways, and the Antichrist will make his appearance.

So let me rephrase my question of your target reader into: what is your competition doing?

Also considering Kim is pretty bland. In the main story it's 60 pages before she even kicks a soccer ball. Readers on some other site have been asking if she can do anything. I haven't warned them she'll be lopping off heads in a scant 200 pages

- In the short version, Connor is bullied by an older kid, Alessandro, and in order to fast-track yet another bullying session, he provokes the kid with insults. Alessandro belts him hard enough to knock him down. Connor seems barely able to get back up, but when he finally does, he quotes Christ about turning the other cheek, so Alessandro belts him there too. Connor plays dead, and Alessandro and his friends take off. Once they're gone, Connor sits up, and the reader realizes that he was faking death, which he's very good at. Just as he's sitting on the floor, a cranky priest find him and gives him hell for sitting on the floor and getting his clothes dirty. After giving Connor a silly lecture, the priest leaves. Connor shakes his head, walks away, glances at the ceiling, and says kill me now, Lord. In this version, Connor is completely non-violent, although the reader learns that there is more going on with Connor than you read in that chapter. A few chapters later, Connor will heal Alessandro's epilepsy with prayer despite the bullying and the two painful punches Connor endured earlier that evening. The two chapters combined will make a great intro to Connor and the role he pretends to play, but chapter 4, the first of the two, ends with that line about kill me now, which is funny but leans on the bullying to make the chapter at least somewhat interesting.
- The long version of this chapter treats a similar encounter as a flashback, but this second encounter is very different. Connor takes a similar hit to the face, but this time, he doesn't go down. When Alessandro tries to hit him again, he literally stops the bully's fist by grabbing it with a cupped hand and holding it fast. Connor eventually has to drive Alessandro to his knees and then flat on the floor. The second encounter takes place in front of many other kids. Connor insists Alessandro promise never to bully anyone again, otherwise he'll have Connor to deal with. Just then, two priests walk by. When they see that Connor has defeated Alessandro, they comment how team sports builds bonds of friendship. They're kidding of course but refuse to intervene, and just keep walking as if nothing is wrong (Alessandro's a known troublemaker). This version of the chapter shows Connor is incredibly strong but not vindictive or evil. In fact he ends up as a hero for the other boys.
- Given where this story is going, with Connor pretending to be the Emissary in "harmonious communion" with Christ, the pacifist Connor would choose option 1. If you don't mind a little violence committed by Connor, as he solves the bullying problem, he would choose option 2. The reader will see more of his mysterious strength in this version, and he's definitely not a pacifist in this case, and the chapter ending is much stronger.

The question: is it better to go with pacifist Connor to start, with a bland chapter ending, and then have Connor cure his bully in the next chapter involving the two boys (a few chapters further ahead)? Or go with the more powerful and heroic Connor from the get go?

Thanks
Dirk