1 (edited by Dirk B. 2019-12-02 13:45:08)

Topic: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

I'm curious of what others think about the first example shown below. It includes a potential POV slip, highlighted in bold. My question is: why is it a POV slip? The sentence is from the POV of Father Romano, a priest in the room where an exorcism is underway, and he makes a reasonable assumption as to why Connor has closed his eyes, furrowed his brow, and is turning his head. Connor has healing gifts and was brought into the room to see if he could help explain why the exorcism is failing. Technically, Connor could be smelling a fart or experiencing a migraine, but given the context, those are unlikely. Besides, even if the priest is wrong, it was his POV and he's entitled to make the assumption that Connor is concentrating. Isn't he?

Connor closed his eyes and furrowed his brow in concentration. He turned his head slowly from side to side as the senior exorcist continued to pray.

Compare this to something more classic:

Connor watched the chief exorcist closely as the priest prayed over the reverend mother.

I think most people would agree there is no POV slip in the second example. However, how does Romano know that Connor is watching the exorcist, as opposed to Connor admiring the exorcist's shoes or looking at the possessed woman lying right next to the exorcist? There's really no way for Romano to know for sure what Connor is looking at, yet I've seen many stories where a reasonable assumption is made about what a character is watching, listening to, smelling, etc. Romano could be wrong about any of those reasonable assumptions. Why then should we exclude Romano making a reasonable assumption about why Connor is doing what he's doing?

For those who think my first example is not a POV slip, imagine if I simply said Connor closed his eyes. Here, too, Romano could still make the assumption that Connor is concentrating, although it's a more obvious slip at that point.

FYI, I'm not trying to eliminate the POV slip in the first example. There's enough information to simply eliminate the bolded text and allow the reader to make the reasonable assumption. I'm more focused on why Romano can't make the reasonable assumption himself.

Thoughts?

Thanks
Dirk

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

I have no problem with example one UNLESS you are trying to limit yourself to the character's actions and sense impressions, denying narrator and reader access to the character's state of mind.  That sort of limitation seems to be in fashion now, but I think it's like much of "modern classical" "music"; it's more appealing to composers, musicians and critics (writers, editors, and critics) than to listeners (readers).

Feel free to enjoy Karlheinz Stockhausen and Philip Glass.  I'll take Mozart, Beethoven, Mahler, and even Ives, Ives who told a restive audience to "sit down and take your dissonance like men."

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

Whose POV? That is the question.

If you're writing from Father Romano's POV and he sees Connor's eyes close and his brows furrow, then the first example is a POV slip, because it's not possible for Father Romano to know if Connor is concentrating, or praying for the event to be over, or whatever. In that case, removing the words, 'in concentration', would correct the error.

If, in another case (say, in another chapter), you were writing from Connor's POV, there would be no POV slip in this example, because of course Connor knows what he's thinking.

JUST REMEMBER you can't zoom back and forth from the POV of one character to that of another, paragraph to paragraph. That's called head-hopping, which becomes disorienting to the reader. Bad form.

4 (edited by j p lundstrom 2019-12-02 20:34:56)

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

Dirk, would it be possible to initiate a discussion of 'show' vs. 'tell' with examples of both?

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

Absolutely. Go for it JP.

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

While, technically, the words in concentration are a head-hop, i'm leaning increasingly to the idea that the words are a reasonable assumption by Romano, although not necessarily a guarantee that they're the correct assumption. It's not always possible to show without killing the pace, and I find "tell" words like seemed to, apparently, as if, etc. to just fill the sentences with words that add nothing to the scene, except to demonstrate to the world our understanding of how to avoid head-hops. I'd argue this particular case is clearer without the extra verbiage.

7 (edited by Temple Wang 2019-12-02 22:46:24)

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

It’s a POV slip.  But more importantly, it’s an intrusion by the author to explain an expression/action.  The better solution is to come up with a description that, when coupled with context, does the work of conveying the emotion or action without the writer interfering to explain it.  It’s ostensibly no different than the weak: “He clenched his fists in anger.”   

Another issue is this: “He turned his head slowly from side to side.” To me this not only adds nothing to the notion of “concentration,” it confuses what’s happening. 

I’ll bet if you concentrated really hard you could come up with a way of describing intense concentration without having to explain to the reader that your character is intensely concentrating.

Frankly, I imagine that context is enough to let the reader know what Connor is doing without the added text (and associated handwringing).

Basically, if you have to explain an expression or a gesture, then your description failed.

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

Thanks, Temple. He's actually doing more than concentrating. He's sensing things others cannot. Think of it as scanning from side to side with his mind. I want to avoid "tell" words and realized that the technical POV slip is a reasonable assumption for the POV character to make. Why is it that we can allow the POV character to use all of his senses down to level of minutiae, but don't allow him to use his brain to make a commonsense assumption, allowing for a faster pace? The slip is a little jarring, even to me, because I've had modern POV rules drilled into me. Doesn't mean I always agree with them.

Just thinking of loud...
Dirk

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

If you feel fettered and straitjacketed by the modren highbrau sensibilities, you can show us that the assessment belongs to your PoV character.

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

If you wish to maintain your basic concept that Romano is observing him "concentrate" then you might simply add "in apparent concentration" which would remain strictly within Romano's POV. Having said that, I would agree with Temple that you could probably "show" the concentration and/or whatever else he is doing by other means. Take care. Vern

11 (edited by Temple Wang 2019-12-02 23:53:10)

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

Dirk B. wrote:

He's actually doing more than concentrating. He's sensing things others cannot. Think of it as scanning from side to side with his mind.

The reader will never get this unless you explain it through dialogue or speculation (or it’s happened before and is already explained).  This is simple enough to do.  Have your POV character (afterward) ask what Connor was doing with the head turning thing, and have Connor explain it.  Without finding a way to make the reader understand, it’s just a confusing movement.  It’s also possible to get inside your POV character’s head and let them speculate.  ...moving his head from side to side, as if scanning, searching for something within.  (rough, but you get the drift).  The POV character speculating through indirect or direct internal dialogue is also a way to “explain” the gesture of intense concentration.  So, putting it all together, you get:  Connor clenched his eyes shut and proceeded to move his head slowly back and forth, as if searching with his mind.  Again, rough, but this gives you better concentration and solves your POV problem.  With direct internal dialogue, you get: (in italics) What’s he doing?  Can he see ... with his mind?

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

Sorry to sneak in here and completely dodge the question, but I still question the the direction the camera is pointed. Choices:

a) a concentrating boy
b) a praying guy
c) a possessed woman strapped to a bed

Ah, but I understand his concentration is supposed to lead to the supernatural element that will soon enter the scene. Connor has perceived it first.

Can your POV character be given the ability to see the oncoming event rather than narrate someone else seeing it? I think that is the crux of the issue - he must make a conclusion about a reality he cannot perceive.

13 (edited by Dirk B. 2019-12-02 23:58:10)

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

My latest attempt. The reference to radar suggests he's scanning, which is confirmed the next time he speaks.

While the senior exorcist continued to pray, Connor closed his eyes and furrowed his brow. He turned his head slowly from side to side, like a radar dish.

Technically, he might still be smelling a fart. :-)

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

Dirk B. wrote:

My latest attempt. The reference to radar suggests he's scanning, which is confirmed the next time he speaks.

While the senior exorcist continued to pray, Connor closed his eyes and furrowed his brow. He turned his head slowly from side to side, like a radar dish.

no radar dish

Also, in this case, you might want to not have the furrowing be “active”.  Consider: Connor clenched his eyes shut.  His brows bunched, and he ....

15

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

As though listening to locate a sound ...

Y'all do realize you're being a lot harder than all but the most wantonly particular readers.

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

Violá!

While the senior exorcist continued to pray, Connor clenched his eyes shut. His brows bunched, and he turned his head slowly from side to side, like a radar dish.

That's a combination of mine and Temple's, although I ruined hers by keeping the radar dish ... for now. :-)

My thanks to everyone for an interesting/helpful discussion.
Dirk

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

njc wrote:

As though listening to locate a sound ...

Y'all do realize you're being a lot harder than all but the most wantonly particular readers.

But it's the care the writer takes in conveying his/her message that determines the ease with which the reader understands and enjoys the story. Why make it hard to plow through your writing when, with a little care, your work can be a joy to read?

(Sorry, not sorry to believe that readers would rather relax into the flow of a story than have to take notes in order to keep up. We left that 'required reading' thing in the schoolroom. Unless, of course, you write textbooks.)

18

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

But does this trouble most readers, or only those looking for trouble?

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

njc wrote:

But does this trouble most readers, or only those looking for trouble?

LOL

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

I agree with jp. What matters is how well the reader is absorbed into the story and how well the story flows. When R.D. Robb changes POV in the middle of a paragraph, unless you're looking for trouble, as you put it, no one cares. The story carries you away. Louise Penny changes POV from paragraph to paragraph. In your example of "in concentration," most people, in "real life" would know if someone is in concentration, so it doesn't necessarily involve any POV glitch. 

Some publishers and editors are frustrated school teachers (my opinion), and fuss over these things, but only as a way of making their job--exclusion--easier.  Others recognize a good story and forgive things like this. For beginning writers, care about POV is part of learning the craft, but after a while, the story's flow is the crucial thing.

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

Rachel Parsons wrote:

For beginning writers, care about POV is part of learning the craft, but after a while, the story's flow is the crucial thing.

I think you’d be hard-pressed to find any successful writer that would agree with the statement:  “the story’s flow is the crucial thing.”  I think this is particularly bad advice on a site like this where we are all more or less beginners, even those of us who have published multiple works — or we wouldn’t be here.  And as beginners, learning all aspects of craft is crucial.  You can always find a writer that is the exception to the rule, but generally speaking, understanding and being disciplined with POV is a basic writing skill, just like grammar and punctuation, and shouldn’t be minimized. 

Undisciplined writers usually end up as hacks.

22 (edited by njc 2019-12-04 00:10:39)

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

Some of them are rich hacks.  Which matters more: the praise of your professional peers or of your present and future audience?  I'm not saying you can't have both, but some of those hacks have created stories that fill C.S.Lewis's definition of myth: a story that can suffer changes in plot, character, place, and era, and still remain recognizable as the same story.

Put The Phantom of the Opera in ancient Greece, replace opera with the plays and choruses, and it would be the same central story.  Replace the congenital deformation with acid scarring, and you have the same central story.

Convince me that Gaston Leroux was not a hack writer.  He was a newspaperman, and his stories were sold as serials.  And he gave us not only Phantom but The Mystery of the Yellow Room, a classic of mystery/detective fiction.

Know the rules, yes.  But know when they can be broken to gain something else.  Be not afraid to boldly split the infinitive, if it will take you where no story has gone before.

If Gaston Leroux doesn't convince you, what about Damon Runyon?

23 (edited by Temple Wang 2019-12-04 06:30:13)

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

njc wrote:

Some of them are rich hacks.  Which matters more: the praise of your professional peers or of your present and future audience?  I'm not saying you can't have both, but some of those hacks have created stories that fill C.S.Lewis's definition of myth: a story that can suffer changes in plot, character, place, and era, and still remain recognizable as the same story.

Put The Phantom of the Opera in ancient Greece, replace opera with the plays and choruses, and it would be the same central story.  Replace the congenital deformation with acid scarring, and you have the same central story.

Convince me that Gaston Leroux was not a hack writer.  He was a newspaperman, and his stories were sold as serials.  And he gave us not only Phantom but The Mystery of the Yellow Room, a classic of mystery/detective fiction.

Know the rules, yes.  But know when they can be broken to gain something else.  Be not afraid to boldly split the infinitive, if it will take you where no story has gone before.

If Gaston Leroux doesn't convince you, what about Damon Runyon?

I concede: hacks are legion.  I concede: some make good money at it (and judge that a success).  There are also plenty of writers who created unappreciated art in their time and died paupers—but whose work was later revered and will live for the ages.  Like I said: you can find examples that support any thesis.  (You can also find people who still purport the world is flat.) 

It is said, “You write what you like to read.”

I concede: some writers aspire to be nothing more than hacks. If being a hack is your thing, and you want to carry that torch, then God bless you—screw POV and spelling and consistent verb tense—embrace the color purple, clunky sentences, clichés, lousy metaphors—boldly split your infinitives, aim for mediocrity and books that only get puff reviews from your on-line confederates (who don’t bother to actually read them, but give a bs review and 5-stars in hopes you’ll return the favor so they can be a “5-star success” while their ranking is 3,455,456  in the “hack wannabe” genre and they sell six copies in as many years), aim to go where so many have gone before, instead of blazing your own trail, and hack on ...

However, some writers write for a different purpose.  They aim to constantly perfect their craft and strive to create something that outlasts them.  There’s a place in this world for all kinds.  Maybe don’t discourage them from striving for something more while you settle for something less.

24 (edited by njc 2019-12-04 07:52:05)

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

Strive to please the reader, or to meet a set of rules?  What happened to 'know the rules so you know when to break them'?

You're right that the writer must know his goals.

Re: POV slip vs. reasonable assumption?

If you "know" when to break the "rules" you probably don't need them or else your workable version of the rules are merely a subset of the rules you dare to break. Something to ponder. Take care. Vern