Topic: How to confuse and frustrate readers
https://blog.bookbaby.com/2019/05/how-t … e-readers/
#20. I'm guilty as charged
- B Douglas Slack
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
Hilarious! I see some of my early mistakes there.
Bill
3 2019-06-21 01:41:42 (edited by Dirk B. 2019-06-21 01:41:52)
- Dirk B.
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
If I had the time, I'd try to write something that follows all of the rules, just to see how it turns out.
- vern
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
Rules are made to be broken, so break all those and you're on your way to being a great writer. Take care. Vern
- kraptonite
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
An ex tNBW member once penned this within conversation on the forum of the old site. I kept it. I like it.
“Study the art of storytelling rather than the art of writing. In the way an actor must study acting, rather than the word perfect repetition of scripted dialogue.
Many of the greatest selling stories are not that well written, but they are excellent stories. Many potentially good stories fail because although the technical writing is strong, the story-flow is weak or implausible. (Mainly because the story is written within the authors head rather than within the readers).
Take articulation over grammar perfection every time. At the end of the day we humans remember the story. It is the yarn that resonates and prevails, not the grammar expertise.
Follow the ‘rules’ implacably along with perfect execution of grammar and you’ll have no voice. Robot voice. Corporate Memorandum voice. A good story can be killed by stiffness. Obviously the articulation still needs to be of a very readable standard, but in fiction there is no division between narrative and dialogue. The author’s narration is as much dialogue as the verbalization of any character, merely a different voice.”
- Mark S. Moore
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
kraptonite wrote:
An ex tNBW member once penned this within conversation on the forum of the old site. I kept it. I like it.
“Study the art of storytelling rather than the art of writing. In the way an actor must study acting, rather than the word perfect repetition of scripted dialogue.
Many of the greatest selling stories are not that well written, but they are excellent stories. Many potentially good stories fail because although the technical writing is strong, the story-flow is weak or implausible. (Mainly because the story is written within the authors head rather than within the readers).
Take articulation over grammar perfection every time. At the end of the day we humans remember the story. It is the yarn that resonates and prevails, not the grammar expertise.
Follow the ‘rules’ implacably along with perfect execution of grammar and you’ll have no voice. Robot voice. Corporate Memorandum voice. A good story can be killed by stiffness. Obviously the articulation still needs to be of a very readable standard, but in fiction there is no division between narrative and dialogue. The author’s narration is as much dialogue as the verbalization of any character, merely a different voice.”
Well said, and kudos to you for giving pseudo-credit to this nameless person.
- j p lundstrom
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
kraptonite wrote:
An ex tNBW member once penned this within conversation on the forum of the old site. I kept it. I like it.
“Study the art of storytelling rather than the art of writing. In the way an actor must study acting, rather than the word perfect repetition of scripted dialogue.
Many of the greatest selling stories are not that well written, but they are excellent stories. Many potentially good stories fail because although the technical writing is strong, the story-flow is weak or implausible. (Mainly because the story is written within the authors head rather than within the readers).
Take articulation over grammar perfection every time. At the end of the day we humans remember the story. It is the yarn that resonates and prevails, not the grammar expertise.
Follow the ‘rules’ implacably along with perfect execution of grammar and you’ll have no voice. Robot voice. Corporate Memorandum voice. A good story can be killed by stiffness. Obviously the articulation still needs to be of a very readable standard, but in fiction there is no division between narrative and dialogue. The author’s narration is as much dialogue as the verbalization of any character, merely a different voice.”
YOU'RE DEFLECTING. The article didn't say anything about telling/not telling a good story. It points out common mistakes writers make that confuse/bore/turn off readers. Do this too often, and your book winds up in the trash. Not a good way to write a best-seller.
And if you're one of those who write for their own pleasure, there's nothing more satisfying/fulfilling than to know you've written well. That's something we're all working on.
- Mariana Reuter
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
While this article is a clear exageration looking forward to highlighting common mistakes, I would like to my two cents on head-hopping. The modern gurus of writing always talk against head-hopping and insist on keeping the same POV, at least through the same scene. They claim head-hopping confuses the reader, as if the readers were idiots.
Writers like Alexandre Dumas head-hop a lot, and their stories were best-sellers when they were written and classics nowadays. Why is head hopping such a sin in the XXI century?
Kiss
Gacela
- Dirk B.
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
At the risk of starting a feeding frenzy, I agree with Mariana. Head-hopping done well is often more concise. The following is from a scene in the POV of Father Romano, listening to Alessandro talk to a third person.
Without head-hopping:
Alessandro attempted to speak several times but seemed to have trouble finding the right words. Finally, he said, “...”
With head-hopping:
Alessandro attempted to speak several times but had trouble finding the right words. Finally, he said, “...”
When it's obvious to the POV character from context (omitted above for brevity), why spoon feed the reader "seemed to have"?
Naturally, I follow the herd, but it doesn't mean I always like it.
- vern
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
Dirk B. wrote:
At the risk of starting a feeding frenzy, I agree with Mariana. Head-hopping done well is often more concise. The following is from a scene in the POV of Father Romano, listening to Alessandro talk to a third person.
Without head-hopping:
Alessandro attempted to speak several times but seemed to have trouble finding the right words. Finally, he said, “...”
With head-hopping:
Alessandro attempted to speak several times but had trouble finding the right words. Finally, he said, “...”
When it's obvious to the POV character from context (omitted above for brevity), why spoon feed the reader "seemed to have"?
Naturally, I follow the herd, but it doesn't mean I always like it.
I wouldn't consider it "head-hopping" in either case. You don't have to be in someone's head to see they are having trouble with words. You would have to be in their head to know what particular words they were searching for, but that's a different scenario. Anyway, that's my totally non-professional opinion. Take with a large block of salt. Take care. Vern
- C J Driftwood
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
Omniscient narrator. Not sure why it has suddenly become a sin to use.
- kraptonite
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
j p lundstrom wrote:
YOU'RE DEFLECTING..
NO I'M DEFECTING
Or more accurately DEFECTED.
Long gone to the other place, along with so many others.
I forgot myself, posting here. What the heck was I thinking?
Bound to get jumped.
- Dirk B.
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
You mean there's a place in the universe with active writing forums? Please tell me it's not abbreviated FB? I'd rather herd cats.
14 2019-06-22 16:01:37 (edited by j p lundstrom 2019-06-22 16:06:12)
- j p lundstrom
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
Re: Head-hopping
I agree "seemed to..." gets repetitive and annoying for the reader if used too often. The very first story I posted here hopped back and forth between a little girl, a serial killer and the girl's father. When one of the reviewers pointed that out, I realized the story would be much better told from a single POV. Only thing is, I still haven't figured out which POV would be best to use. Despite that, the story was published by a crime magazine, and I enjoyed fifteen minutes of satisfaction, if not fame.
No, you don't have to chain yourself to a single POV. Most times, the reader won't notice it, but if you flip around too much, the reader begins to feel like a spectator at a tennis match. It can get confusing, and downright tiring, trying to figure out just who's thinking/ feeling what.
I think it's a matter of style, and discipline, to create new and better ways to show what a character's feeling or thinking, rather than use "seem" over and over. We just have to get creative.
And if that scares someone away, I am truly sorry. As I've said before, we didn't join tnbw for pats on the back. I really welcome suggestions for improvement, and open discussion is what we're here for. If this thread gives someone the information they need to improve their skill, then we've accomplished what we set out to do. And if we disagree, well, that's life, and that's what gives readers such a banquet of written works to choose from. What's that they say about variety?
So go ahead--hop from head to head, or not, as you see fit, and as it fits your story. God bless.
- Rachel Parsons
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
I can think of best selling authors that violate several of these rules (even the ones against typos). I agree with the anonymous, quoted person who said the story is the most important thing, although this isn't an argument against polish. As to titles having nothing to do with the story? The rule for titles is--will they sell the book, not whether they have anything to do with the story. Some of the best science fiction stories in the era of SF magazines had not only titles but cover art that had nothing to do with the story but got the reader to buy the magazine.
As to head hopping? I know I've been rejected with that as one of the reasons. But sometimes, the story flows better and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the omniscient POV. Sorry, there just isn't.
- Rachel Parsons
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
Actually, the whole objection to head hopping was based on a misunderstanding. H.L. Mencken said that in writing a story, you shouldn't have Hedda Hopper in it, and over the years, it got corrupted.
- njc
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
Ellery Queen was a master of sliding from narrator's description to narrated story and back.
The case began on the outskirts of an upstate-New York city with the dreadful name of Eulalia, behind the flaking shutters of a fat and curlicued house with architectural dandruff, recalling for all the world some blowsy ex-Bloomer Girl from the Gay Nineties of its origin.
The owner, a formerly wealthy man named DiCampo, possessed a grandeur not shared by his property, although it was no less fallen into ruin. His falcon’s face, more Florentine than Victorian, was—like the house—ravaged by time and the inclemencies of fortune; but haughtily so, and indeed DiCampo wore his scurfy purple velvet house jacket like the prince he was entitled to call himself, but did not.
....
The Lincoln collector, an elderly man who looked like a migrant fruit picker, had plucked his fruits well: Harbidger was worth about $ 40,000,000, every dollar of which was at the beck of his mania for Lincolniana. Tungston, who was almost as rich, had the aging body of a poet and the eyes of a starving panther, armament that had served him well in the wars of Poeana.
...
“I must say, Mr. DiCampo,”remarked Harbidger, “that your letter surprised me.”He paused to savor the wine his host had poured from an ancient and honorable bottle (DiCampo had filled it with California claret before their arrival). “May I ask what has finally induced you to offer the book and document for sale?”
If it weren't pitch-perfect, it would be born-to-the-purple prose.
- Alza
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
Dirk B. wrote:
At the risk of starting a feeding frenzy, I agree with Mariana. Head-hopping done well is often more concise. The following is from a scene in the POV of Father Romano, listening to Alessandro talk to a third person.
Without head-hopping:
Alessandro attempted to speak several times but seemed to have trouble finding the right words. Finally, he said, “...”
With head-hopping:
Alessandro attempted to speak several times but had trouble finding the right words. Finally, he said, “...”
When it's obvious to the POV character from context (omitted above for brevity), why spoon feed the reader "seemed to have"?
Naturally, I follow the herd, but it doesn't mean I always like it.
Deep POV: Alessandro opened and clothed his mouth several times as though words stuck in his throat. Finally, he said, "...
There's a difference between omniscient and head-hopping. There are many articles on that. Here's an example: https://mythsofthemirror.com/2016/09/01 … d-hopping/ It even provides for exceptions.
- j p lundstrom
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
Very informative and quite readable. We should all pay close attention to this one. No excuses!
- Rachel Parsons
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
I'm reading a Reginald Hill. The one right after "Death Comes for the Fat Man." Every character's POV is included in a single chapter. He has Ellie do or think something, then Wield, then Pascoe. He also has long narratives from Andy's POV but then only has another POV when he switches scenes. It all works.
- vern
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Re: How to confuse and frustrate readers
j p lundstrom wrote:
Very informative and quite readable. We should all pay close attention to this one. No excuses!
There may not be a good reason, but there is always an excuse to be found. Take care. Vern
