Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan (Page 1 of 9)

Rhi as a pleural sounds like a name to me.  However, I like the idea of changing lord to Rhi.  If you added their name after, it would distinguish between them. 

Most American fantasy readers will understand 'High King' as a title because of Arthur.  Middle and Lesser King is cumbersome (so I agree with you on that)

Is there a comparable term for 'Middle King'?  Otherwise, could you call them magesties or something like that?

FYI, I like how you've given examples in the story to put this choice in perspective.

And here I thought my titles were tricky to get right.  Anyways, here my opinion goes.

Historical novels need to be accurate, but then again, it can't be.  There are so many conflicting works and research it's not even funny.  My personal approach is, be consistent i.e. I don't switch between two sources because it suits me all of a sudden, so I've selected the ones I'm using (and that agree with each other) and I'm using them and only them (it's still recognised resources though!).  I doubt a general reader would be too concerned what you use though and the ones that's done some research and disagree, at least you can point them to your resources.  Honestly, I think they would much rather prefer it's not complicated to follow.  So I guess what I'm saying is, no need to change titles as long as it is based on some accurate source/origin and not overly complex.

Also, if you call the sons prince, the daughters should in all likelihood be princesses.  I'm avoiding royalty like the plague in my books and haven't met the Queen yet, so I can't advise how to address royalty correctly.  (It's a good thing I haven't met the Queen, because the conversation would go something like this:  Nice to meet you, Queen.  Say, I'm writing a book and really would like to use the correct forms of address.  Do you have a spare hour to help me out with this?  Thanks mate!" - because of course she's going to agree and jump up and down from excitement, I'll even thank her on the front page.)

I disagree.  This is so unique!  A work-around your issue that it seems too long might be to introduce X, Y and Z as great, middle and lesser king at the start of each major scene and simply call them king from then on.  It shouldn't be a problem and based on what I know from titles, it won't be too far off to what probably happened in reality.  Most research is done on the written words left behind from those good old days, and there are massive differences even today between how you would address a titled person in writing vs. in speech.  Have to love it, otherwise you'd go nuts!

To give you an example - Duke is "Your Grace", Marquess/Earl/Viscount/Baron are all "My lord" even though a marquess is higher ranked than an earl, an earl than viscount and viscount a baron, and Baronets/Knights are "Sir".  So I see some parallels here with the "lords" where a great king, middle king or lesser king could all be addressed simply as "king".  It's not too much of a stretch because I guess the titles I use have been founded and based on the titles you are using?!

But having said this, you still need to be consistent otherwise some readers would pick it up.

If you're changing "lord" to "rhi", you'd also have to change "king" (all of them) and "chieftain" to Welsh to keep it consistent in my opinion.  This might make it really hard to read and keep up, as much as I love the concept.  The unusual names are already a steep learning curve for me and I have British blood in me!  And as Janet TP sometimes say, and it's true, readers don't have a long concentration span anymore, so it could be too hard (complex) to keep up with Welsh words/titles in between.

Not sure this helps, but let me know what you think and we can talk about it a bit more!
JR

You need someone like this!  I wouldn't pick it up otherwise since I sometimes get lost in the stories and forget I'm supposed to be reviewing! 

I've suggested that you spend a little more time describing your physical geography.  What if you introduced at the same time your political geography: who is ruling whom and what their respective ranks are?  This could provide both a logic and a gestalt to help the reader follow what's going on.  With that underlying your action and the character presentation that flows from your action, you might have a much stronger picture at little or no cost to the reader.

Hmmmmmmmmmm. You are right about "rhi" sounding plural. With so much Latin around it would just be confusing.

I think t the concept of "middle king" and "lesser king" was lost with the Anglo-Saxon conquest. The Teutons replaced the hierarchy structure with their own.

Yikes! If I call some one "Lord" and then "King" or the other way, it is probably in error! I will double check my titles!

K, Janet R, NJC

"High King" is the Pendragon. So I don't actually use that term in my stories.

What if I used "Great" Middle" and "Lesser" on kings and queens both:
King Moilmut becomes Great King Moilmut
Queen Benadel becomes Great Queen Benadel
Lord Find becomes Middle King Find
Queen Gweldyr becomes Middle Queen Gweldyr

I can't add "great" "middle" or "lesser" to "prince" or "lady" as that would be inconsistent with the Brythonic titles and mess up one of my major plot points.

K

I did a word search for "King Find" and didn't get anything. So, I must have already corrected that error. ... Or it was another "Lord" who got magically changed to "King"?

I'll check all of my titles.

I do have some people changing titles on purpose. (Lady Anna married and became Queen Anna, and Lord Cadell is made King of Powys and thus becomes King Cadell.) Maybe I need to explain title changes better?

NJC

Low would definitely work in place of Lesser! Good suggestion!

Then again, how important is it to know the "level" of each king (or queen) at ALL TIMES?  I'd suggest only to differentiate between the levels when it's crucial e.g. when you introduce them.  The example you're giving - the important bit is not what level of king said what to what level of king, but WHO said or didn't say something to WHO.

therefore:

"But why was that not told to King Gurgust?” Drech asked.
“It is King Tedig who said fever,” the princess said.

should therefore be more than fine.

But say King Tedig walks into a room where King Gurgust is.  Then it would be important i.e.

Middle King Tedig bowed (or whatever they do) to Great King Gurgust.

One could argue by his action alone it should also be clear which king is on a higher "level" than the other, so even this should work and not be confusing (especially if the Great, Middle, Low concept has already been introduced - you would need to do this!):

King Tedig bowed when he entered the room.  "Great King Gurgust, I have been waiting for you."

ps - no probs with the ladies/princess issue!  Makes sense, and it would seem like that's the least of your problem! 

I hope I'm not making this worse!  But this is something I've never heard of (and maybe it's just me), and brings such a different level to the table, that I just love it!  But it's all up to you, as always! 

xx

If someone doesn't understand why Lord Cadell is now King Cadell after he was made King of Powys or Lady Anna is Queen Anna after marrying a king, I'd say they're probably not well suited to read historical novels .....

edit - K excluded, it's meant in general and not at all to what K's been saying or doing!!!!!!!!!  This is just to answer your question.  I think K's problem is consistency rather than complexity but K is better suited to be the judge on what he means ... 

What about mid-King?  The translation would still be accurate this way.  What are the welsh words for high, middle and low/lesser?  Just curious.  Are there other translations for these words that you might use?