51 (edited by Rebecca Vaughn 2015-08-12 17:58:11)

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

KHippolite wrote:

Also, I have "Prince Cattergirn" recorded as "Cattegirn". I'll assume it's an error on my part, but you may want to word-search it on prior stories just to be sure


Agh! Noooooooo!

I'll look up the spelling. He is a historical character so I don't want to play around with his name. sad


It is "Cattegern". Sorry for all the miss spellings! :_(

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

janet reid wrote:

Rebecca, I think readers will be able to go with the flow so to speak. When I'm reading for enjoyment, it's MUCH less of an issue. I had no issues with lord, chieftain, king until it was mentioned in the forums.

As to a character list and map - I like those. It's much better than remembering page numbers to go back to when I'm reading a book and want to find out who's who again. As a reader, I don't mind though - as long as the story has me hooked, I'm willing to overlook plenty! And even with a character list you still need to page back to look at it, so it's much of the same. So IMO, that's all up to you!


Thanks! I'll put in a character list and map!

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

KHippolite wrote:

It is supposed to be Luitcoyt which is the Capital of Pengwern

I have Luitcoyt recorded as L.-city-of and L.-Circle-of but no mention of a caer-of in there. Recomend dropping here and using circle-of since that will resonate with readers struggling to remember it

"Caer" is "City" so where ever it says "City of Luitcoyt" I need to change to "Caer Luitcoyt"! Yikes! That's thirty word doct. I have to search through! sad

"Circle" is like a senate or board meeting. All the lords of a kingdom get together and vote on something or pass judgment on someone. The Circle of Pengwern meets in Luitcoyt because Luitcoyt is the Capital of Pengwern. There should be no "Circle of Luitcoyt". Which means I have another thing to go searching for! I suspect the problem is in the first half of book 2...

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

KHippolite wrote:

I see you've given Marcia dementia so she can't inadvertently spill the beans on Enhinti's parentage. Nice trick. You have done well, padawyn

smile

I had to have a reason for Queen Marcia to be out of the political sphere while Queen Gratianna was so involved. Also I needed to control information to Drech and to Enhinti, and give a reason why Marcia couldn't give consent to their marriage. Giving her dementia fixed all problems.

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

KHippolite wrote:

I was saving the rest of the details of the Onnen

In this case, perhaps you can sneak through this chapter without mentioning her. You probably have two groups of readers (a) those who didn't remember her and were more interested in the current scene of Camuir + Elen and (b) those who did remember her and got totally side-tracked by this mention.


Oh, I didn't think of the mention as being a distraction! Haha! Hmmmmm...

Close to the end of Book 3, Elen tells Camuir that she refused to bring Onnen with her because of Onnen's crime. Now in Book 4, I meant to reveal that crime as attempted murder, with Camuir shouldering the blame for Onnen and at the same time justifying his own actions as a parent. Elen then "accepts" Camuir as to blame and uses that to condemn his decisions as a parent. With Enhinti and Mother Nyfain, my purpose was going to be to show how Enhinti sees Onnen's actions (trying to kill Elen) as a reaction to Nyfain's crime against Onnen. Nyfain tries to justify her actions to Enhinti, but because Enhinti blames Nyfain for Onnen trying to murder Elen, she refuses to listen to Nyfain's side of the story.

If I take out this mention of Onnen (in Camuir's and Elen's conversation), will the next mention (in Enhinti's and Nyfain's argument) make sense? I guess I will have to see when I get there...

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Would it make sense to add enough detail to Onnen's mention that it becomes a teaser, suggesting that there are details to be unfolded?

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

This is the part in question:

“Why then did you not protect me?” the queen continued. “Onnen took me by the head and held me in the fountain. She nearly drowned me. She tried desperately to kill me. If it weren't for Enhinti's screams, no one would have know to come and save me.”
“You cannot blame Onnen–”
“Who shall I blame then, Da?” she whispered choking on her own words. “I was seven years old. My mam had just abandoned me. I needed my da. I needed you. But you did nothing. You let her stay in the castle as if she had done nothing wrong. You knew that she had tried to murder me and yet you allowed her to remain, seeing both I and my small sister every day.”
Camuir shook his head, sadly. “Onnen was not herself.”
“But you were, Da,” the queen mused. “You were yourself. The same as you have always been. Careless. An inept king, a feckless husband, and an incompetent father.”


Here is with more detail:

“Why then did you not protect me?” the queen continued. “Onnen took me by the head and held me in the fountain. She nearly drowned me. She tried desperately to kill me. If it weren't for Enhinti's screams, no one would have know to come and save me.”
“You cannot blame Onnen–”
“Who shall I blame then, Da?” she whispered choking on her own words. “I was seven years old. My mam had just abandoned me. I needed my da. I needed you. But you did nothing. You let her stay in the castle as if she had done nothing wrong. You knew that she had tried to murder me and yet you allowed her to remain, seeing both I and my small sister every day.”
Camuir shook his head, sadly. “You must be more understanding toward Onnen, Elen. Her baby was stolen from her. You do not know what it is to lose a child. Onnen could not think aright. She was grieving and not herself.”
“But you were, Da,” the queen mused. “You were yourself. The same as you have always been. Careless. An inept king, a feckless husband, and an incompetent father.”


Here is with more:

“Why then did you not protect me?” the queen continued. “Onnen took me by the head and held me in the fountain. She nearly drowned me. She tried desperately to kill me. If it weren't for Enhinti's screams, no one would have know to come and save me.”
“You cannot blame Onnen–”
“Who shall I blame then, Da?” she whispered choking on her own words. “I was seven years old. My mam had just abandoned me. I needed my da. I needed you. But you did nothing. You let her stay in the castle as if she had done nothing wrong. You knew that she had tried to murder me and yet you allowed her to remain, seeing both I and my small sister every day.”
Camuir shook his head, sadly. “You must be more understanding toward Onnen, Elen. Your mother stole the baby from her. You do not know what it is to lose a child. Onnen could not think aright. She was grieving and not herself.”
“But you were, Da,” the queen mused. “You were yourself. The same as you have always been. Careless. An inept king, a feckless husband, and an incompetent father.”


Better?

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

I think there has to be some sense, some hint, that Elen's mother has a role in this.  You don't have to say what.  It might also help to give the mother's name, so that she's a real character in the reader's mind and the reader is primed to hear from her.

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Pity Camuir will be denied the chance to redeem himself in mortal combat with the real villian.  By this time there are plenty who would be happy to settle for a tenth of him so long as they were assured the other nine-tenths were half as well taken care of.

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Oh, if Camuir isn't willing to strike the death-blow, I'm sure Elen will be.

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

njc wrote:

I think there has to be some sense, some hint, that Elen's mother has a role in this.  You don't have to say what.  It might also help to give the mother's name, so that she's a real character in the reader's mind and the reader is primed to hear from her.

I'll go with the last then! smile

I'm not sure where to put the mother's name. Seems weird for Camuir to call his wife "Nyfain" to their daughter. I'll have to think about that...

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

njc wrote:

Pity Camuir will be denied the chance to redeem himself in mortal combat with the real villian.  By this time there are plenty who would be happy to settle for a tenth of him so long as they were assured the other nine-tenths were half as well taken care of.

Don't worry about Camuir! He does get redeemed. It just takes him a while. smile

And Elen with a spear... That is a scary thought!

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Ok! I'll take a look at it! I tend to be too melodramatic! So maybe that is influencing where I cut the chapters!

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Rebecca, I know I'm sticking my head into the middle of a conversation. Here's something to consider...and I realize that it is changing the subject a bit, but here I go... Rather than cutting the chapters, have you considered a hard edit and thinning? You have a distinct style and may want to stay true to that, but I think there are a lot of spots in your conversation that repeat and could say the same thing with fewer words. And I think you can stay true to your style in the process. It would add even more punch to a great conversation and emotional exchange. And I don't say that lightly. This is an intense scene and has a big footprint...like bigfoot sized footprint. Great job!

Here's my attempt to help.

Your third unedited example is 196 words.

Edited: Note that I added a few more action verbs to these paragraphs, along with exclamation points.

“Why then did you not protect me?” the queen (demanded). “Onnen took me by the head and held me in the fountain and nearly drowned me. If (not) for Enhinti's screams, no one would have know (known) to  save me.(!)”
“You cannot blame Onnen–”
“Who shall I blame then, Da?” she whispered(,) choking on her own words. “I was seven years old. My mam had just abandoned me. I needed my da. I needed you. But you did nothing. You let (Onnen) see both I and my small sister every day. You allowed her to remain(!)”
Camuir shook his head, sadly. “You must be more understanding, Elen. Your mother stole the baby from (Onnen). She was grieving and not herself.”
“But you were, Da,” the queen (muttered, realized, admitted, said, shouted...add more intensity than the word 'mused'). “You were yourself, as you have always been. Careless. An inept king, a feckless husband, and an incompetent father.”

146 words. I don't think this version has lost any of the content, intensity, or importance. And I cut out a quarter of the wordage.

Hope I've helped. FYI, that last line kicks ASS.

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Thanks, Amy!

I see what you mean about trimming. I do tend to get wordy. Though I don't think I want to take out Camuir's "You do not know what it is to lose a child." Because it shows why Camuir just tried to murder Drech. I'll think about it!

I'm thrilled you like that last line! smile

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

KHippolite wrote:

After thinking on this, my original thoughts seem valid. Onnen is a distraction in an otherwise powerful scene. Mentioning her a little or a lot or even at all is not going to service Elen or Camuir (it will, however, service Onnen who at this point is unimportant)


Maybe I can take her out then, if she really does a disservice to the scene. Maybe I am trying to do too many things: Camuir justifying himself, Elen having a self realization, and setting up for (one of) Enhinti's confrontations with the sisters' mother, Nyfain. Fact is that neither Onnen nor her son actually make an appearance in this book.

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Consider Sire for child address to the father and Mare to the mother (for Chiftains)? What do you think?

68 (edited by njc 2015-09-22 12:11:33)

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

I like having the flavor that we have now.  It's part of the setting and feel of the story.

Alhough directed at modern audiences, this is not a 'modern' novel.  It's a story in of older style in a modern package.  Keeping the Brythonic flavor keeps it true to the story and its setting.  Likewise, R.V.'s very spare style serves this story well.  Even when I suggest a change, I know that it might do damage.

Regarding Amy's suggestions above: I agree that those points could be changed, but in general I think her suggestions are too strong for the style.  I could see Elen's last  accusation being 'pleaded', since Camuir has a way of turning everyone's love into tragedy.

Regarding 'Onnen'--if the (back)story is essential, then it must be told sufficiently for the reader to understand.  If 'Onnen' is part of the story, then she must be named.  If the only thing the name does is amplify the tragedy, it is enough ... however ...

It might make sense to identify Onnen as 'your nurse' or 'her cousin' (or whatever) at first appearance, and only name her once, or only once in the story, and once in the reply (or in 'you cannnot blame'), so that she is identified as supporting dramatis personae here, but one with her own story.  Ripples from a pebble someone tosses in a stream, the road goes ever on and on ...

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

From over there, it's as big as.  From here, it's a ripple of the past.  Isn't the whole issue here managing that distance?

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

amy s wrote:

Consider Sire for child address to the father and Mare to the mother (for Chiftains)? What do you think?

An interesting idea! Never thought about Sire or Mare before.

I'm concerned that "Sire" and "Mare", both having an Old French origin that never left them (When I look at them, I think "French"), will take away from the Ancient Island Celtic feel I'm (trying) to create. Same reason I never put "Count", and "Marquis" on the list as possible titles. If I can't get over the French-ness (No offense to anyone who is actually French...) I'm not sure I can convince readers to.

I do wonder why a man would address his father as "Sire". Seems odd in a pre-Renaissance-protocal British Isles.

I'll have to think about it.

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Thanks NJC!

I appreciate the sensitivity to style! smile

Onnen was one of (Queen) Nyfain's servant women. She was/is a slave (as most of the servants are). (King) Camuir got her pregnant. And she had a son.

I think I'll just take her name out of this scene and let it focus on Elen and Camuir. Ill have to see though.

This book is going to look nothing like it originally did! Haha! Every once in a while, I find some old note or outline of a scene and think "This is all wrong! It doesn't go that way at all!" Hahaha!

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

You've invested a great deal in a Brythonic tale about a largely Brythonic world, and carried your readers along.  I recommend staying with it and making cautious, marginal changes to your style where there is strong and clear reason for change, and not otherwise.

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

K

I think I must be confusing! sad

I meant that the narration does not refer to Enhinti as "princess". Other characters call her "Princess" and (I think) somewhere in Drech's POV in some book she is called "his princess". I did this to match Drech who is only referred to as " the Pendragon" by the narration when it is not his POV. (Like when it is Camuir's or Enhinti's POV instead).

Am I making any sense? (I feel like I'm rambling!)

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

I on the other hand, don't have a clue what you've just said. Just another reminder not to read this thread, I'm not nearly as confused while reading the story! smile But then again, I don't read while updating/keeping spreadsheets ... sad

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

A spreadsheet is a poor substitute for a database.