Fantasy, Magic, and Sci-fi → Northern Skies - Janet!
I think I have it now and am going to try njc's suggestion - keep it to the background. With what I have in mind, I think it will work out.
That's one alternative, Amy. The other is, consult with her to see if maybe she doesn't have a brilliant idea to catch this SOB. 
In which case, he shows that he trusts her by speaking with her the way he would talk to a male friend. She's a friend again and not just a pleasure in bed.
And maybe it starts as a romantic interlude and turns into a serious discussion, and only later do either of them question it--differently. Catherine is afraid of becoming a wife, etc.
In which case, he shows that he trusts her by speaking with her the way he would talk to a male friend. She's a friend again and not just a pleasure in bed.
And maybe it starts as a romantic interlude and turns into a serious discussion, and only later do either of them question it--differently. Catherine is afraid of becoming a wife, etc.
That's one alternative, njc! (I'm pretty sure I've said this word for word recently, but can't think when) He's in her chamber, so far so good. But instead of falling into his arms, she interrogates him about the first fight in the courtyard of a whorehouse and whether he considered what it would do to his reputation and that of his title ... And from then, it's just one question after the other until he just gives up and tell her everything. And then she realizes they are in trouble - all their cluwwssss are dead ends (literally DEAD ends) - and then she suggests what she would've done. And only then does passion raises its head (no pun intended, oh, what the hell, pun intended).
Not bad. Not bad a`tall.
So ... have you looked in on my recent chapterlette for the start of SP/B2?
I like the twist of having C find a clue rather than letting men be the answer. Nice.
Especially since it makes her a useful partner, and nudges them closer to the marriage that C fears.
Not bad. Not bad a`tall.
So ... have you looked in on my recent chapterlette for the start of SP/B2?
Catching up this week! This weekend wasn't good for reading/reviewing - only had internet access on-and-off. This weekend will be another hit-and-miss ... we're going sledding! 
I like the twist of having C find a clue rather than letting men be the answer. Nice.
Glad you like! But yeah, I don't like cardboard heroines.
Especially since it makes her a useful partner, and nudges them closer to the marriage that C fears.
It's going to hit Matthew just as hard ... 
Now I just have to pull it off.
Next chapter is out. Have a go at it! Thanks.
OK, you said to hit you up in the forums...
As much as Matthew wanted to believe otherwise, he was holding one of his own arrows. --- does this work better? There is an order issue in these paragraphs. M goes still with shock, ignoring the cries of his men. Then he has an internal dialogue about the men being his brothers. Then he confirms what his eyes tell him and agrees that the arrows are his. My suggestion was to move the sentence up...first M goes still. Then he confirms the arrow is his. Then he has the internal dialogue in reaction. Does this make sense?
Some of this is style preference, and some is a distancing that I'm finding it hard to explain to you. Almost a neutral narrator coming into play. You do something that I see a lot in R Vaugn's work, where you step back and summarize. (maybe it is easier to see in the work of others.) My version: Tazar stepped onto the dry leaves, moving his toes underneath the crumbling scree to find the solid ground beneath his feet. No one at the nearby fire called an alarm. Your version: Tazar stepped lightly, sure that the leaves were going to betray him to the infidels sitting around that nearby fire. As much as he wanted to believe otherwise, he knew that there was a huge risk of discovery tonight.
In both versions, Tazar is stepping through leaves and trying not to be discovered. In my attempt to imitate your style, there is a lot of preplanning...thought and summarizing that (IMO) detracts from the stress and anxiety of the character. It slows the action. So if I were to use this as an example of the sentence, "Much as M wanted to believe otherwise, he was holding one of his own arrows," then I would turn it around to make it more sensory...more immediate.
Ex: M went still, aware but numb to the cries of outrage around him. The arrow passed to his hand, marked with Geordie's lifeblood smeared down the shaft. It was fletched by a master and banded with M's family colors. (Italics) This isn't a cheap copy. This is my arrow! (end italics) M felt his pulse beating in his forehead as he flushed with anger. (Italics again) Only a handfull have access to my stores and all but Walter are here with me now!
This eliminates the filler words and phrases and sticks to the action. (as much as M wanted to believe otherwise...his eyes confirmed...felt much older than his two and thirty years...he couldn't get his brain to process any questions, implications...) Again, IMO. You and I agree to disagree, so this may be a style issue that I'm not familiar with. However, writing action is one of my strong points, so give it a thought for me?
Matthew felt much older than his two and thirty years. (I have been showing what he was thinking and feeling up to now, that should be enough to allow some showing to get things moving? And I don't really want him to come across as a big wuss either) He isn't a big wuss. Period. See above why I brought up this sentence.
Is the blackguard playing a game? Mocking me? (who is the blackguard? This hasn't been mentioned much prior to this point. I would remember this name.) Thinking back, I realize that the Blackguard has been mentioned before. Oops.
Matthew had serious doubts they would find anything there (again, this is that outside perspective summarizing the implications of a search that hasn't happened yet.)
I'm thinking to make Black John really good at hiding his emotions and thoughts, except to those that knows him really well, so can't really give it a description, only a feeling, and that can't really be described. (This is M seeing BJ's stress. He knows how to read his friend. There would be signs. BJ isn't a Vulcan. He has reactions even if these are only subtle.
They'll have blankets - it's standard equipment. They do travel light and fast - that's why they're not wearing armour .... But they wouldn't leave necessities - and blankets are standard gear for these guys. (Props HAVE to be accounted for. My first experience with this was me having a character throw up into a bucket that was tucked beneath a nearby bed. Someone raged at me, typing, WHERE THE F**K DID THE BUCKET COME FROM? If a prop is going to come into play, it MUST be mentioned before. So the men have to have bedrolls tied to the back of their saddles prior to leaving the keep.
Really? Why would Catherine 'see' a typical cottage interior when the only thing she's worried about is Margery and just being informed Geordie is dead (There is a fine line between staying in someone's head and having the reader navigating a new scene without any description but a fireplace along the wall. I use my neutral narrator to describe the scene at the beginning of most changes. That way, the reader can visualize. Since we've only been in a castle so far, this cottage is unexplored territory and not defined. Honestly, I see four empty stone walls with a fireplace and a clean table with two chairs. That is it. The room is a blank.
Try to eat/ Try to rest for me, would you? (I would skip these sayings. This is just me...the person who talks to people about their dead loved ones all the time...these sayings are more for the person who is trying to comfort rather than the person who is grieving. Just have C guide the mother into the father's arms and give them privacy. That is all you need to do)
Catherine found Matthew in the same spot where they had met earlier that morning. It didn’t seem like the same day they had watched the sunrise together. (suggest adding C's tension earlier. C found M in the same spot where they met earlier that morning. Her shoulders ached with tension, yet another thing different from the idyllic moment less than a day before...to me, C's tension needs to be stated before it can go away. That is why I think of it as an order issue.)
Can't find my breeches (He got led up the stairs and THEN lost his breeches? Or did he lose his breeches before walking up the stairs? The way this is worded, I'm not sure:-) Oh, men who are getting drunk on purpose are usually pretty loud. I'd expect C would know the men were toasting Geordi much earlier because of the noise.
Okay, review is done and it's a MONSTER. I light into you on Anthony's self-exposition, and I ramble on at great length afterwards about it. I hope it's clear, and I hope some if it is of use.
Okay, review is done and it's a MONSTER. I light into you on Anthony's self-exposition, and I ramble on at great length afterwards about it. I hope it's clear, and I hope some if it is of use.
Nope, it wasn't that bad! It was a really good review, so all good! It's useful, but whether I need to take it into account is what I'm wondering about ... Let me know if I misunderstood what you were trying to tell me! Appreciated, thanks!
For a story about the physical world to be convincing, it must be consistent. You can't have someone racing on an asphalt track hit a mud puddle, skid, and slide off into the front of a Jewish deli.
You have Anthony talking about his internal journey. That journey must start someplace, take a certain course, and end someplace. As of this point in the story, Anthony is taking stock of where he has been and deciding where he wants to go. Those places where he has been have been specific places; he started as a specific sort of child, became a specific sort of youth through certain steps of his journey.
You don't want to make this book about him, but the part that is his should be be consistent, and we should be able to recognize that consistency. We should be able to recognize something about where he's been--or where he says he's been--and where he is, and where he thinks he needs to be. We should be able to recognize what's influencing him, and why--which is why I asked in which way Geordi's death affected him, and in what way Matthew's training is acting on him.
That doesn't mean that he or you tell us everything. But a visitor to New York who visits Times Square should be able to tell us about all the lighted signs, and a visitor to the Statue of Liberty should be able to talk about climbing the hundreds of steps on the long double-spiral (double-helix!) staircase. Someone who drives on a bridge over the Mississippi should be able to tell us how long it seems.
As much as Matthew wanted to believe otherwise, he was holding one of his own arrows. --- does this work better? There is an order issue in these paragraphs. M goes still with shock, ignoring the cries of his men. Then he has an internal dialogue about the men being his brothers. Then he confirms what his eyes tell him and agrees that the arrows are his. My suggestion was to move the sentence up...first M goes still. Then he confirms the arrow is his. Then he has the internal dialogue in reaction. Does this make sense?
Okay, so what’s missing is step 1 where Matthew confirms the arrow is his and only then goes in shock, etc. etc. etc. So it’s not necessarily an order issue, more a ‘info is missing’ issue, and that’s what had me confused. If I fixed that, the rest should fall better in place?
Some of this is style preference, and some is a distancing that I'm finding it hard to explain to you. Almost a neutral narrator coming into play. You do something that I see a lot in R Vaugn's work, where you step back and summarize. (maybe it is easier to see in the work of others.) My version: Tazar stepped onto the dry leaves, moving his toes underneath the crumbling scree to find the solid ground beneath his feet. No one at the nearby fire called an alarm. Your version: Tazar stepped lightly, sure that the leaves were going to betray him to the infidels sitting around that nearby fire. As much as he wanted to believe otherwise, he knew that there was a huge risk of discovery tonight.
In both versions, Tazar is stepping through leaves and trying not to be discovered. In my attempt to imitate your style, there is a lot of preplanning...thought and summarizing that (IMO) detracts from the stress and anxiety of the character. It slows the action. So if I were to use this as an example of the sentence, "Much as M wanted to believe otherwise, he was holding one of his own arrows," then I would turn it around to make it more sensory...more immediate.
Ex: M went still, aware but numb to the cries of outrage around him. The arrow passed to his hand, marked with Geordie's lifeblood smeared down the shaft. It was fletched by a master and banded with M's family colors. (Italics) This isn't a cheap copy. This is my arrow! (end italics) M felt his pulse beating in his forehead as he flushed with anger. (Italics again) Only a handfull have access to my stores and all but Walter are here with me now!
This eliminates the filler words and phrases and sticks to the action. (as much as M wanted to believe otherwise...his eyes confirmed...felt much older than his two and thirty years...he couldn't get his brain to process any questions, implications...) Again, IMO. You and I agree to disagree, so this may be a style issue that I'm not familiar with. However, writing action is one of my strong points, so give it a thought for me?
And I think this is where we have to agree to disagree. This isn’t an action scene, this is an emotional scene. I don’t want the attention on the arrow and the blood, I want it on Matthew and what he is feeling and how is working through his shock. That said, I’ll see what I can do to make it more immediate/direct.
Matthew felt much older than his two and thirty years. (I have been showing what he was thinking and feeling up to now, that should be enough to allow some showing to get things moving? And I don't really want him to come across as a big wuss either) He isn't a big wuss. Period. See above why I brought up this sentence.
What I’m trying to say here is, too much showing what he is feeling is also not a good thing. But based on what you have said now, it doesn’t seem as if your issue was ‘not enough’, but rather ‘not immediate enough’. So, gotcha!
Is the blackguard playing a game? Mocking me? (who is the blackguard? This hasn't been mentioned much prior to this point. I would remember this name.) Thinking back, I realize that the Blackguard has been mentioned before. Oops.
Matthew had serious doubts they would find anything there (again, this is that outside perspective summarizing the implications of a search that hasn't happened yet.)
My reply here was I am going to delete this sentence and keep the dialogue with Black John which should show this clearly, so I kind of agreed, just differently.
I'm thinking to make Black John really good at hiding his emotions and thoughts, except to those that knows him really well, so can't really give it a description, only a feeling, and that can't really be described. (This is M seeing BJ's stress. He knows how to read his friend. There would be signs. BJ isn't a Vulcan. He has reactions even if these are only subtle.
I’ll think about this one, but I don’t really understand why it’s critical/important for Matthew to notice specifics vs. just knowing Black John is also not a happy camper because he knows him well …
They'll have blankets - it's standard equipment. They do travel light and fast - that's why they're not wearing armour .... But they wouldn't leave necessities - and blankets are standard gear for these guys. (Props HAVE to be accounted for. My first experience with this was me having a character throw up into a bucket that was tucked beneath a nearby bed. Someone raged at me, typing, WHERE THE F**K DID THE BUCKET COME FROM? If a prop is going to come into play, it MUST be mentioned before. So the men have to have bedrolls tied to the back of their saddles prior to leaving the keep.
There are ‘magic’ props and then there are ‘magic props that can reasonably be expected to be there without any formal announcement’, in my opinion. It is not normal for people to keep buckets next to their beds. But if your character had grabbed a chamber pot, it wouldn’t have been a ‘magical’ prop, but a ‘reasonably expected to be there kind of’ prop, hence no intro needed. The blanket in my scene is not a bucket, but a chamber pot. It’s reasonable to assume they will have it, just like they had it to cover Catherine when she went into shock way back in Chapter 1 … Does this make sense?
Really? Why would Catherine 'see' a typical cottage interior when the only thing she's worried about is Margery and just being informed Geordie is dead (There is a fine line between staying in someone's head and having the reader navigating a new scene without any description but a fireplace along the wall. I use my neutral narrator to describe the scene at the beginning of most changes. That way, the reader can visualize. Since we've only been in a castle so far, this cottage is unexplored territory and not defined. Honestly, I see four empty stone walls with a fireplace and a clean table with two chairs. That is it. The room is a blank.
Good, I don’t want you to see the room. Four walls and a fire place? That’s more than enough, because I want to you feel Catherine’s shock, pain, ineptness to help Margery. I want you to rather see Margery’s pain and shock … I’m also of the opinion that of all things, the interior of a plain cottage is a fairly easy one for any average reader to picture without me having to add any more details to what I have. Agree to disagree, until more reviews share this problem?
Try to eat/ Try to rest for me, would you? (I would skip these sayings. This is just me...the person who talks to people about their dead loved ones all the time...these sayings are more for the person who is trying to comfort rather than the person who is grieving. Just have C guide the mother into the father's arms and give them privacy. That is all you need to do)
I’m completely confused now? Are you suggesting that Catherine says nothing and just silently trades places with Geordie’s dad? Because Catherine is saying these things trying to help and it’s not helping the parents, it’s only so that she feels she’s helping? Which is kind of what I’d be expecting from who doesn’t talk to people all the time about loved ones that dies … I can remove C’s (inept) dialogue, but then I bet you a bottle of wine someone will complain about her lack of effort to care or at least and try and comfort Margery and Sim and she should at least say something.
Catherine found Matthew in the same spot where they had met earlier that morning. It didn’t seem like the same day they had watched the sunrise together. (suggest adding C's tension earlier. C found M in the same spot where they met earlier that morning. Her shoulders ached with tension, yet another thing different from the idyllic moment less than a day before...to me, C's tension needs to be stated before it can go away. That is why I think of it as an order issue.)
I’m doing it all in one – I’m telling readers it is there just as I’m taking it away. If I can be blunt, I think this is getting really finicky that every single thing must be mentioned and nothing can ever be implied.
Can't find my breeches (He got led up the stairs and THEN lost his breeches? Or did he lose his breeches before walking up the stairs? The way this is worded, I'm not sure:-) Oh, men who are getting drunk on purpose are usually pretty loud. I'd expect C would know the men were toasting Geordi much earlier because of the noise.
She wouldn’t hear them all the way from the tower to the outside hall. But if they were doing it in the tower hall, she’d be listening to them while lying awake. On the one hand, outside hall would include everyone, but on the other, inside hall listening to their antics might be really good to up the tension until Matthew stumbles in, with or without breeches, the jury is still out on that one to avoid the confusion between his sword and his sword.
For a story about the physical world to be convincing, it must be consistent. You can't have someone racing on an asphalt track hit a mud puddle, skid, and slide off into the front of a Jewish deli.
You have Anthony talking about his internal journey. That journey must start someplace, take a certain course, and end someplace. As of this point in the story, Anthony is taking stock of where he has been and deciding where he wants to go. Those places where he has been have been specific places; he started as a specific sort of child, became a specific sort of youth through certain steps of his journey.
You don't want to make this book about him, but the part that is his should be be consistent, and we should be able to recognize that consistency. We should be able to recognize something about where he's been--or where he says he's been--and where he is, and where he thinks he needs to be. We should be able to recognize what's influencing him, and why--which is why I asked in which way Geordi's death affected him, and in what way Matthew's training is acting on him.
That doesn't mean that he or you tell us everything. But a visitor to New York who visits Times Square should be able to tell us about all the lighted signs, and a visitor to the Statue of Liberty should be able to talk about climbing the hundreds of steps on the long double-spiral (double-helix!) staircase. Someone who drives on a bridge over the Mississippi should be able to tell us how long it seems.
So if I'm reading this correctly, I have given you the what made him rethink his life and where he wants to go without the where he had been? So if I add more about his years in London, that would help?
Fair enough. Like I said, this is very likely a style choice rather than a bunch of hard and fast rules.
No, you don't need to give us the whole (back)story. But you need to have that mapped out, including how his attitudes change, so that when he does tell us things he's telling us things from a consistent story, and so that you have specific things he can tell us, even if he's vague and cagey.
I'm rewriting (at an agonizing pace) the Erevain episode because having a generic tinfoil hat type didn't work for me. So now Erevain's mentor has tumbled onto some nasty secrets. I haven't got every one of them nailed down, but there are two secrets under the Academy that I have nailed down. One I've hinted at and it links to backstory that I've given. The other I haven't hinted at yet, but one of my reviewers (was it you?) wondered about economies based on gold. No, they're not turning lead into gold. I do hope the reveal will give people skin-and-bones nightmares, but that's at least five books off, and I have to get the first one out of where it's stuck in the mud. I also hope to use the reveal event to trigger avalanches through several books. After I get Erevain out of the mud, get the Book 1 timelines nailed down, rewrite the training sequences ... you get the idea.
So what is Anthony's backstory, external as well as internal? How does he remember it? How does that memory change with his new understanding? How does he describe the process?
FWIW, I think the external part of the backstory you've given is brilliant for the job it has to do. Of course, how Anthony remembers it and how Catherine remembers it will differ, at least in what the events meant to each, just as they did for Catherine and Matthew.
Have you seen Trouble With The Curve? It didn't get great praise from the critics, but it ought to be a classic date movie. Anyhow, at one point Clint Eastwood's character tells his daughter that he wanted her to have more in life than spending it all "sitting in the cheap seats" and she replies, "You call that the cheap seats. To me those were the best years of my life."
Fair enough. Like I said, this is very likely a style choice rather than a bunch of hard and fast rules.
You made some good suggestions though. They're (obviously!) all on board!
No, you don't need to give us the whole (back)story. But you need to have that mapped out, including how his attitudes change, so that when he does tell us things he's telling us things from a consistent story, and so that you have specific things he can tell us, even if he's vague and cagey.
I'm rewriting (at an agonizing pace) the Erevain episode because having a generic tinfoil hat type didn't work for me. So now Erevain's mentor has tumbled onto some nasty secrets. I haven't got every one of them nailed down, but there are two secrets under the Academy that I have nailed down. One I've hinted at and it links to backstory that I've given. The other I haven't hinted at yet, but one of my reviewers (was it you?) wondered about economies based on gold. No, they're not turning lead into gold. I do hope the reveal will give people skin-and-bones nightmares, but that's at least five books off, and I have to get the first one out of where it's stuck in the mud. I also hope to use the reveal event to trigger avalanches through several books. After I get Erevain out of the mud, get the Book 1 timelines nailed down, rewrite the training sequences ... you get the idea.
So what is Anthony's backstory, external as well as internal? How does he remember it? How does that memory change with his new understanding? How does he describe the process?
FWIW, I think the external part of the backstory you've given is brilliant for the job it has to do. Of course, how Anthony remembers it and how Catherine remembers it will differ, at least in what the events meant to each, just as they did for Catherine and Matthew.
Have you seen Trouble With The Curve? It didn't get great praise from the critics, but it ought to be a classic date movie. Anyhow, at one point Clint Eastwood's character tells his daughter that he wanted her to have more in life than spending it all "sitting in the cheap seats" and she replies, "You call that the cheap seats. To me those were the best years of my life."
I have all the important overlapping bits sorted (I think). Things may change. My plan is to write all three books first before I'm going to attempt to publish the first one. That way I can still make changes. But so far, I have it sorted in enough details that the common 'threads' between all three books will not change much i.e. is in place.
I haven't seen that one. Sounds like another one for the ever growing list!
By luck, things are falling into place. I haven't planned this deliberately, but with Northern Skies the title is based on Catherine's eyes being sky-blue and the central, connecting theme is 'weather', i.e. rain, storms, etc. The second one is Northern Ice, based on Black John's eye colour, and the connecting theme will be him meeting a woman that almost freezes to death in one scene in the middle of winter. The third book, and this is the one that's really thin on detail, will be Northern Fire, based on Anthony's eye colour and the theme will be him meeting someone who lost her parents in a raid/fire and you guessed it, it will be summer. Black John's story will follow directly on NS while Anthony's story, at this stage, will occur almost 7 years later. He has a lot of growing up to do. The last book is touching a lot on how Matthew lost his parents/brother and Black-J his wife, but given the frequency of the border being literally burned down, it shouldn't be a problem. I hope.
So there you have it, although this is more a note/reminder for me than anything else while I'm thinking about these things. And to pretty much say, I get the idea too!
Backup complete for this one
I owe you K! Thank you!!!! I'll check it out some time during this week ... and then I'll start a new thread that will be almost impossible for Mr. G to find.
Fantasy, Magic, and Sci-fi → Northern Skies - Janet!
