Topic: Northern Skies - Janet!

Here's where we can resume our discussion about Northern Skies.  I'll post our discusion from the other forum site here so that you can keep the thread moving.

From me to you on 11/13...

OK, here is a thought for you, Janet.  Discard if you want, but at least consider the option.

If Matthew started the book from his perspective, he would be racing to save the hamlet, worrying about a horse breaking a leg on the moor, concerned that more reivers are working in his lands.  He hears a woman's scream, finds Catherine, realizes who she is and that she is injured, and knows that there is at least one archer who is possibly trying to kill him.  This way, the underlying plot would be revealed, the scene-safety concerns with the archers would be detailed, and the description of C would be given so the reader knows exactly what she looks like.  A basic history would be available as Matthew contrasts C's mature appearance to what he remembers.

Then flip the last couple paragraphs to C's perspective, detail her pain, and have her lean into Matthew's warmth as he takes her to safety.  End the chapter with the 'failed miserably' line.

If the second chapter is about C, you can detail the healing and medical care and start to address the concerns about Anthony and keeping the plot a secret.  She dresses up after the 2 day respite and goes down to confront Matthew as the Viscountess.

It is just a thought, but I wonder if this would strengthen and streamline the story to relay information more smoothly.  (instead of the flip-flop order issue I discussed before.)

Oh, one last thought.  You need to make it clear that the tower is only one room per floor.  Most Americans will think of a tower as multiple rooms, but this is a smaller tower built as a residence.  That will explain the lack of furniture that you describe in the story. 



Last thought, don't just say 'bath' and leave it at that.  When Catherine takes a bath, describe a rinse from a bucket with another bucket to wash her hair.  Any average person would expect a bathtub in the room, rather than the equivalent of a sponge bath to clean off the blood and sweat from C's injury.

Later,

A

Quote Post 1

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

From you to me on 11/13

Heya Amy,

The devil might be in the detail, but I think you're right, this idea of yours could make the first chapter, well, a first chapter!  It's definitely not the easy way, but then again, no one ever said writing first chapters is a breeze.  LOL  But I actually like your idea.  Heaps.  It would keep the reader in suspense what the hell Catherine was doing there etc. etc. (and all the things you've mentioned).  <------ I'm stubborn, yet open-minded!  WTF?   

I'm fast running out of ways to thank you, and others, on this site for all your wonderful suggestions and ideas and support ...  But in any case, a big thank you for investing in this and all your help/support!

I've also been thinking of ways to only have her move her arm after a week, but Matthew isn't a virtue of patience, so, so far, I've only been hitting walls (he's also not incompetent, so them taking a week or more to find Isaac is also not going to happen!).  And I don't want him to be an abuser - if she's that badly hurt, he won't lock her up or do anything more than asking and yelling.  But I haven't completely discarded your opinion yet ...  (just so you know!)  It could actually also work out better later on if she actually did hurt her arm really badly.  But I'm still thinking on that one.  Having her arm in a tight sling to keep it from moving is what I have for now.  *Yawns*  If all else fails, I'll put in a disclaimer for all ER professionals that Amy told me so and to just go with the flow! 

Re your other thoughts, absolutely, I keep all of them and do make changes based on those kinds of feedback.  So when I explained to you about the size of the towers and the bathing, I actually meant to say it will be expanded and those kind of details will be worked into the scenes to make sure there will not be any confusion again.  So that kind of feedback is really great to smooth things for others! 

ps - Matthew isn't happy with you (and he has a sword).  He was 1-inch away from getting some nooky when I saw this post, and now he has to wait until I've redone the first chapter before he's going to see (get) some action ....  LOL 

I know what you've said about getting the first draft done, but given it's a big change, I'll interrupt the flow to do it now, otherwise I won't be able to concentrate on writing the rest of the chapters ...  I'll just wrap up the chapter I'm busy with now, go back to START, don't collect $200, and then I'll be going again on the rest of the story soon. 

I'll probably repost the first chapter, and then I'll review some work for njc, and that way, someone would have a good look over the reworked chapter.  <----- that's the plan for now, at least!

Thanks a mill for this! 

Janet

Quote Post 2

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

It could actually also work out better later on if she actually did hurt her arm really badly.   (Consider having her reinjure her arm at a later date.  The arrow injury wouldn't be competely healed.  If she tried to pull up a large weight or overused that arm, the muscle would tear and put it back to 1st injury status. 

As before, poor Matthew.  My heart just bleeds for him and his 'one inch'.  (snicker)  Deprivation makes the heart grow fonder.  Consider this a time for person growth on his part. :-)

Quote Post 3

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

I have been thinking, lots.  And it does hurt, thanks for asking!  So here goes ...

Matthew and the guys reach the valley, Catherine gets shot, really badly.  They can't move her far, so returning to Dacre Tower is out.  I'll have them take her to a nearby cottage, have an old village wife treat her there - they were always prepared for forays and shit given the general situation on the border.  Matthew won't mind, because Catherine isn't going anywhere fast with a wound like that.  So he'll come back for her later when she's better.

Matthew and the guys look at the arrow and look for Isaac - it will take longer because Isaac went into hiding, his father and sister don't know where he is, yadida-yadida.  But yeah, no way Isaac can hide from Tom or Matthew for long.  Two days MAX.  And just before Matthew loses his mind, he returns to the hamlet to have the confrontation with Catherine - let me know the earliest he can do that please?!  Every day here makes a difference, because I have to keep Matthew busy with all kinds of shit while not making him look like an incompetent idiot in the process.  And he can't have any spare time to think about going to Aiden Tower and asking a few pertinent questions - that would totally fuck-up-excuse-my-French the COMPLETE plot.  But I guess I can keep him busy, have some sort of real trouble somewhere to go and sort out or some such.  He finally confronts Catherine - desk will become a (sturdy) trestle table  - and we're back to where I am now.

So this means most of the chapters will have to be updated.  BUT, it would be worth it, because I have a really good idea what to do with her arm later.  A REALLY good idea (well, I think!).  So yeah, back to the drawing board, I'll repost as I go.  Activity on the new site has picked up considerably, so it seems as if everyone was just spinning wheels waiting for it ...

LOL!  It's one massive one-inch, this is romance after all!

Quote Post 4

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

OK, here's another thought that solves the problems I've placed in your plot.  It isn't fair that I pointed out a flaw and don't help solve it. 

Here we go...

The arrow shot by Isaac (thanks for giving me the bad guy's name) is at a speed that will kill a man if it hits, so just hit C's horse.  Kill the horse, have it fall, and have her tossed onto the ground.  Then, all you have to do is have her maybe dislocate a shoulder (which can be poppled back in by someone who knows what to do) or have rib fractures.  Then, the story continues as you've written it.  The arrow is taken from the horse to examine.  The couple goes to Dacre tower.  The smooch interrogation goes on schedule, and Isaac has the same time-constraints to make trouble for Matthew. 

Rib fractures mostly heal within 10 days.  After that, the pain is mostly gone except for sudden movements/ reaching and bending. (this might go along with your story later in the chapters).  They take about 6 weeks to heal completely.  A  rotator cuff injury is a matter of putting in a sling and then slowly mobilizing it.  C would have a hard time reaching the arm over her head until it was healed.

So I think the rib fractures is really the way to go and eliminates most of the stress that I've put you under. 

FYI, I'm wondering if we should be sending private messages back and forth instead of using this forum.  That way, I get notified by email that you've sent a message instead of potentially missing the new post that you put here.  It also has a linear format where the messages get displayed in a line, so referencing the info is easy.  Disadvantage is that we won't have others nosing around on the site and commenting so you won't have a social a thread if we move to private messaging.

A

Quote Post 5

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

OK, this works better I think.  I'll be checking here instead of on the previous forum so everything is in the same place.

Quote Post 6

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Absolutely a better place to do this - thanks for getting it all across!  Appreciate this continuing support.  Send me the virtual invoice for services rendered, and I'll send you the IOU!

Have considered that scenario too, but:
*  If Catherine is not too seriously wounded or hurt, she's going back to Aiden Tower (she'll get Forster, her brother's captain of the guard, to man up for sure) and Matthew will have to use force (not a good look)
*  If the horse is shot, no slowing it down, no matter how good a rider you are or trained the horse is, and if it's also coming down, she's going to break arms and legs AND fracture ribs and dislocate shoulders to boot - so then I have all the ER's happy, only to have all the equestrians getting on my back (and with good reason)

The idea I'm playing with, she's going to heal just fine, until she and the villain meet - she's not going down without a fight, and the villain will play dirty - given he knows she was wounded, he'd grab her arm and apply force on the wound to get her to drop her dagger or whatever - and there will not be a reader in the world that would be sad to see the end of the villain after that!

Is there anywhere else the arrow could hit other than her arm that would be serious, but would heal much quicker?
[I'm sure we'll get there eventually, and trust me, if it works better and makes sense, I'd rather re-write and do it well - no shortcuts!]

ps - I should've mentioned that Isaac is the messenger lad, the villain is not going to surface for quite awhile to be a good match for Matthew and Catherine.  This is my bad, I should know better than just throwing names around without tags.

Quote Post 7

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

OK, lesser injuries...

A close miss with a laceration through the soft tissue of the upper arm or leg.  If it were the thigh, realize that the arrow would get stuck going through the fabric of her skirt and stick in the saddle (saving the horse, causing a lot of blood loss and leaving most of her muscles intact)  This would allow Matthew to see her leg as he checked for active bleeding.  It also would mean that she couldn't get off the saddle and he would have to do his power/flex move to remove the arrow (thereby getting close enough to let her smell his manliness)

If the horse is shot, she might be able to kick off, saving the broken bones from the horse falling on her.  (Just saying) 

Do you like the laceration instead of the impalement?  I think the blood loss alone is something she could heal from in short order and still function within the story.

Quote Post 8

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Same issues remain?  If she kicks off, she'll be falling from a horse still going at speed if not bolting, she won't be able to control her fall.  Question is, would I be able to convince readers she just got really lucky and fell of a horse (at speed) without fractures?  Laceration will be tied up, she's going home and I don't want Matthew near Anthony so soon.

Just thought of something.  Wonder it wouldn't work better if she gets shot, laceration type wound, closer to Matthew's tower than her brother's tower instead of the middle ground?  Thinking out loud here ...  Her brother's hamlet wouldn't be so close to Matthew's tower.  I could have her, when she realises nothing is going on at the hamlet, continue on to Matthew's tower.  Bad guy would be in position to take a shot shortly after Matthew leaves the safety of the tower, and Catherine just happen to be between the two when he shoots?  BUT, would I have enough time to establish the sexual tension.  There would be way less contact with a laceration wound (no holding her to break the shaft, sharing a horse and holding her to remove the arrow <---- I do these things on purpose you know!).  Unless she dislocates her shoulder when she falls as well?  And instead of Henry Medicine Man popping it back, Matthew does.  So they would treat the wound, pop back her shoulder and take her back to Dacre Tower to make sure she'll be ok.  It will be a short ride, but it probably will count for something.  He can give her until the next day to rest, and then it's time to do his thing.  And would she notice Matthew while he pops back her shoulder?  Probably afterwards if he holds her until she stops crying.  But then would a tough chick cry?  I've seen a lady pop her shoulder and have it put back, she groaned and complained, but didn't break down.  I probably need to sleep on this some more.

Seeing her leg would be nice touch ...  Something to keep in mind too.

Surely we can come up with a solution between the two of us?!!!!  big_smile

Quote Post 9

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

KHippolite wrote:

The average romance reader will allow her to fall from a horse without getting hurt. She might also jump from a second or third storey window and land in the saddle and neither the horse nor rider seem fazed (see Princess Bride).

The average sci-fi reader will burst into tears if this happens.

Clearly I'm not an average romance reader then (not sure if I'm above or below, but that's a subject for another day and thread).  I cringed.  I blame Hollywood and movies.

But in any case, it's something to keep in mind before I lose it ...  If I go down this route though, I'd rather stuck with Catherine being relatively seriously wounded yet wonderfully able to move her arm 3 days later?

Quote Post 10

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

And would she notice Matthew while he pops back her shoulder?  Probably afterwards if he holds her until she stops crying.  But then would a tough chick cry?  I've seen a lady pop her shoulder and have it put back (She would definitely notice Matthew, but not in a positive way.  The first time a shoulder dislocates is different from a chronic injury, which is what you probably saw.  Would a tough chick cry?  Hell yeah.  Real pain makes people revert to behaviors that they had as kids.  Some get mad, some sad, some loud, but it isn't a sign of toughness to cry or not cry.  It's a sign of their childhood and how they are programmed to react. 

I spilled boiling grease on my leg as a teen.  My response was to scream.  I let out two sharp, top of my lung howls and then I got all shocky and pale.  So the short answer is that you can pick C's reaction based on her upbringing. 

I'm really sorry that I complicated your life about the rewrite of Chapter 1.  That wasn't my intent.  As to the injury, here is another idea.  If you have the arrow go into the back of C's upper arm and wedge itself into the bone, the arrow will stick, require manipulation to remove the arrow-point, and isn't near any big blood vessels.  This way, you just grab the arrow shaft with a cloth for good purchase, and wiggle the point until it comes free.  It would hurt like hell, and there would be a lot of stress about the arrowhead breaking off so that they wouldn't be able to get it out (this would likely result in infection and she could lose her arm according to the healer)  You would avoid pushing-the-arrow-out-through-the-skin and just pull it free. 

This would go along with the concept that the arrow was shot by an expert marksman and intended to kill...the arrow just stopped  because it hit the bone.  It also would mean that C could flex her arm (biceps wouldn't be affected) and extending her arm (the opposite movement) would hurt like hell but gravity could do most of the work. 

Just let it bleed a lot to explain why the wound doesn't get infected (from the muscle rather than a severed artery).  That way, the blood loss is something that she recovers from in 2-3 days and feels a lot better.

How does this idea work?

A

Quote Post 11

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

KHippolite wrote:
janet reid wrote:

Clearly I'm not an average romance reader then (not sure if I'm above or below, but that's a subject for another day and thread).  I cringed.  I blame Hollywood and movies.

Yes, the Hollywood factor doesn't help. In my last romance, I had Reiki jump from the roof of an office tower and swan dive into a pool of water roughly five foot square (described that a rake could be used to reach across it).

This feat would actually be incredibly difficult to perform by even a trained stunt person. I kept waiting for reviewers (or, now, readers) to harp on it. But nope... they seem to be giving her a pass. Next I might try having someone fall out of a speeding car and walk away unhurt

Maybe we should be glad Hollywood made our lives easier?!  But yeah, don't get me started on my absolute personal favourite - emails that warn you of all kinds of shit - people have lost their ability to challenge things.  I blame the internet.  If the interweb/email say so, it must be true?!  Right?!

Despite all of this, I do see the need to stretch the truth sometime, but I do it only to a point - it still has to be possible, unlikely, but possible.  Not sure if Reiki's dive could fit in with this?  But then again, if you have fantasy and magic elements, you have way heaps more leeway, I guess.  *scrambles to delete Matthew's double somersault from the highest tower into a shallow pond below and him walking away with arrows whooshing all around him, unhurt, with the damsel in distress, in awe, hanging over his shoulder*  smile

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Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

amy s wrote:

I'm really sorry that I complicated your life about the rewrite of Chapter 1.  That wasn't my intent.

We're on the same page then!  I'm taking this in my stride and know you mean well!  smile  The fact that you're sticking with me working through it, gave you away!  wink

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Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

amy s wrote:

How does this idea work?

Hells-bells.  This could work!  Catherine is going to pee herself when they remove that arrow though.  Pushing it through is the easy way.  To remove the arrow by pulling it out backwards and not having the head dislodged, they'll stretch the wound by inserting larger and larger wooden dowels (soaked in honey) and wrapped in honey-soaked cloth to stretch the entry wound open.  Other ways is to insert spoons or smooth tongs (stretching the wound in the process) "around" the arrow head to pull it out.  I might just have to make her faint at this point.  Guess once the arrow is out and she's over the shock, she'd be good to go again.

Arrows were never yanked out actually.  If it couldn't be removed by pushing it out or as described above, they broke the shaft off and left the head entact until the pus/infection eventually made it possible to be removed.  (short inaccurate description)  But this was not a good idea as the infection could be spread and the end result would be fatal.  (obviously?!)

How does this work for you?!

Quote Post 14

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

It's all about making the characters vulnerable but real, K. 

As to them leaving the arrow, the only way we know that is bodies that have been excavated with arrowheads in their bodies (with signs of healing over the wound).  How do we know which ones had the arrows pulled out?  If it was possible, why would anyone leave it in?  This falls more into the probable category for me.  I would give C the benefit of a doubt and let Matthew magically manage to remove the arrowhead (with much worry about her losing the arm if they didn't succeed)  Have them use a chisel or hammer to tap it out (from a forge or armory).  That'll be dramatic.

Quote Post 15

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

amy s wrote:

It's all about making the characters vulnerable but real, K.

Never took K for the sensitive type!  big_smile 

amy s wrote:

As to them leaving the arrow, the only way we know that is bodies that have been excavated with arrowheads in their bodies (with signs of healing over the wound).  How do we know which ones had the arrows pulled out?  If it was possible, why would anyone leave it in?

The procedure had been documented when Henry V while he was still Prince Hal had been wounded in a battle.  It was only available to royalty and the well-to-do.  Why leave it in?  I'd have to find the source in my buried stash I never intended to use.  Let me know if you really want to know, and I'll dig it up again - I can't remember if it gave examples when it was done (another reason not to use it, can't be validated).  But I'm with you, there would not be that many times it couldn't have been done by pushing or pulling.

amy s wrote:

This falls more into the probable category for me.

Consider it done, m'lady!  Whoo-hoo!!!!!!  *charlie chaplin moves going on here*  <------ obviously me and not Catherine, her bottom lip is shaking

amy s wrote:

I would give C the benefit of a doubt and let Matthew magically manage to remove the arrowhead (with much worry about her losing the arm if they didn't succeed)  Have them use a chisel or hammer to tap it out (from a forge or armory).  That'll be dramatic.

No magic needed, just an old village wife!  wink  Chisel, hammer, drama.  Looks like we'll need more than Matthew to hold her down.  What's Tazar's schedule looking like?!  wink

I'm busy with the next chapter, still want to change chapter 1 as soon as I can and get njc on the job.  So it looks like I'll be starting with njc reviews soon!  big_smile

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Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Sic him.  He plays tough, but he loves the attention.  :-)

Quote Post 17

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

I see that you posted but I don't know where.  What chapter needs reveiwing?

Quote Post 18

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Hey Amy

I'm posting in the Premium group until we can post to more than 1 group without having to pay points for each post in addition to the first one - otherwise reviewers will not get points either.  This is my understanding in any case.

Your last review was Chapter 8, I've posted 2 new chapters on the new site since - you'll recognise some of your suggestions!  smile

At this stage, I go to my homepage and review my connections.  If someone new wants me to review their work, they'd need to review me or connect with me with other words.  As it is, I can't keep up with my connections ...  sad  But luckily no one is counting, right?

Cheers
Janet

Quote Post 19

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Which 2 new chapters did you post?  Give me the numbers so I don't have to hunt

Quote Post 20

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Janet

DO NOT KILL CATHERINE'S MARE!

Okay, I'm breathing now...

You can have Catherine get a nasty graze that requiters stitches. Matthew would still insist that she be take to his house. The blood loss and pain would make her unable to ride (or really do anything) for a while, and even after a few days, she would not be able to use the are at all. It would probably continue to hurt every time she moved it or tried to use it for a few weeks. But the arm will eventually heal and be fine (although with a nasty scar that Matthew can kiss better every night...).

A good rider can slow a horse to a stop, even if one arm is bleeding. No reason to have Catherine fall off a racing horse and risk breaking her neck. And a heroine who always falls over and never gets hurt is just a lame stereotype.

Quote Post 21

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

amy s wrote:

Which 2 new chapters did you post?  Give me the numbers so I don't have to hunt

I'm back!!!  I couldn't post message to any groups, including the premium group, so had to send Sol a quickee.  Lucky that worked!

Chapter 9 (title Chapter 7 - Return to Norwood Castle) and Chapter 10 (title Chapter 8 - Catherine confesses)

Thanks!

Quote Post 22

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Rebecca Vaughn wrote:

Janet

DO NOT KILL CATHERINE'S MARE!

Okay, I'm breathing now...

You can have Catherine get a nasty graze that requiters stitches. Matthew would still insist that she be take to his house. The blood loss and pain would make her unable to ride (or really do anything) for a while, and even after a few days, she would not be able to use the are at all. It would probably continue to hurt every time she moved it or tried to use it for a few weeks. But the arm will eventually heal and be fine (although with a nasty scar that Matthew can kiss better every night...).

A good rider can slow a horse to a stop, even if one arm is bleeding. No reason to have Catherine fall off a racing horse and risk breaking her neck. And a heroine who always falls over and never gets hurt is just a lame stereotype.

Hi Rebecca

Not to worry, Catherine's mare is safe!  Not sure if I'm just lazy, but your idea to just have a deep laceration is appealing.  Given that I haven't connected any "awareness" to the scene where the arrow was removed (I thought that would really be stretching it and would be inappropriate), it shouldn't be too hard to do, except I'd be minus a whole chapter.  But, it's not necessarily a bad thing!

And we so agree on the stereotype you've mentioned!

Thanks!!!!

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Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Here's a completely random thought: Have the story begin with a woman's scream that chills the bones. Matthew questions if it were real or coyotes (don't know if they have those there or not) or something out of his worst nightmare. They follow the sound of a horse crying. It stands over an unconscious woman, protecting her. The woman is on the ground and her delicate ankles are exposed, but he shouldn't be looking because she's hurt and its not right. The arrow is visible sticking out of her arm. He drops to the ground off his horse, using it as a shield if need be, but he determines the danger has passed. When he rolls the woman over he discovers it is Catherine, his unrequited love. There is a bump on her head and is slightly bleeding but she doesn't wake. Determined not to lose her ever again, he takes her with him (on his horse) to his home to help her mend. He can't fathom why she would be there at night alone. Was she the threat he'd been warned about? No, because they'd expected a raid from neighboring clans, not a lone woman. Had she lost her mind after her husbands death? He wouldn't know because he'd not checked on her.

I've said all this to show you that there are tons of ways you can approach the beginning of the story and still set the scene and tension. I subscribe to a blog that "Flogs a Pro." I've learned a lot from the floggings they give famous, well-known authors. The premiss is they take the first 17 lines from a story and ask the hard questions:
1. Story questions
2. Tension (in the readers, not just the characters)
3. Voice
4. Clarity
5. Scene setting
6. Character
Yes, all this in only the first 17 lines. I try to make sure my story fits in this as well. What I originally had to begin with was a prologue but quickly determined it wasn't enough to answer those 6 questions. This is your story, and you can make it anything you want because it's your imagination. However, ask those questions of your first 17 lines.
http://writerunboxed.com/2014/04/17/flo … st-page-5/

I hope this encourages you because you have a good plot. I love historical romance!
Philisha

Quote Post 24

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Sorry, Philisha. No coyotes. sad There are foxes which look nothing like coyotes but have some similar behavioral traits. Fortunately for Catherine all the wolves have been killed off for tribute by this time. (Sucks for the poor wolves, but good for people who are hurt out in the middle of nowhere...)

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