Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

You said this:

This is just a thought, but I think it is the Chamberlain.  The bolt being Matthew's...staging the ambush in territory that only a native would know...Sending the message and speaking like a noble...It has to be him. The Chamberlain would also be able to move around the tower without being noticed (explaining why M heard a door close)  While I could be wrong, there just aren't many other possible suspects who have been given screen-time. The only other one I can think of is the guy who was trying to buy horses.

BJ isn't a suspect because he was with M as C was injured and he was training when the scout arrived.

If I'm right, then you need to obscure the clues better and add a bigger cast list with more potential people who have a grudge going.

And I replied with this:

I actually like the idea to add more potential suspects to the list.

And would like to add, that I have since reconsidered after thinking about it for the following reasons:

If you had come out straight away and said, I (as in Amy) KNOW it's the steward or the guy that wants to buy horses (Peter) or the Scot that wasn't happy that his wife got caught being rejected by Matthew (the Scottish warden's nephew), I'd sit up and go: oh-oh, need more suspects. But so far it seems I have enough to cast sufficient doubt. You're not entirely sure. Isn't that good enough? And I really want readers to go at the end, "ha! I knew it!" or as a minimum "ha! that makes sense!"

You're not trying njc's tricks guessing who it could be every time a potential suspect or klew come up hoping I would tell, are you? mmmm? *glares un-approvingly at Amy and njc*

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477 Reply by amy s

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Nope, I'm not just flailing. The Steward is my top suspect.

I think this is about priorities. You have repeatedly said that you want this book to be about boinking and the mystery is secondary. Now you're asking if you can leave the mystery slightly obscured so that you don't have to add any other characters (so you are avoiding the mystery). Then you say that this mystery will be tied together over the course of three books and only resolved at the end. (Three books to resolve a mystery that was promised in the first chapter? It sounds like my story…) Then you say there is an epic battle coming but you don't want to write about a sparring contest between M and BJ. AND Aiden. Don't forget Aiden.

I find so many opinions confusing, only tied together by a bunch of tumbles in the hay, on the dining room table, and in C's bedroom.

You said, 'instead of just having Matthew noting his strength was deteriorating fast with every blow he deflected'. This is where I see you having trouble with the action. You write with an analysis, while no one has time to think between being pummeled repeatedly. Combat is about action. Movement. Ex: Go to a movie that you like, put the action scene on the screen and write it. Just for practice. Don't make the scene about who is stronger. Leave the results up in the air. Then draw the picture instead of just saying, "They struck each other with a flurry of blows."

In my (questionable) opinion, you have to tell a story well to make the characters live and thrive in your world. So if you want to present a mystery, make it a GREAT mystery. If you don't want to add characters, then BJ can't be present during the initial attack where C is injured. You have to find a way to make EVERYONE in M's world a suspect so that C is the only one he's sure that it is safe to talk to. Even the kid who overheard the conversation might be lying. Let the reader figure out who they think is innocent. Since C is the only safe confidant, this could lead to further sex, so win-win.

However, I believe (again questionable) that you need to write better combat in the beginning so it is expected at the end. A sparring match isn't a battle, but M gets portrayed as tougher if he beats BJ. BJ's reaction gives clues on how persistent he is, how much hurt he is willing to take, and how far he is willing to go. (Ergo…leading to whether he is a suspect or not). I never have any doubt that M is going to win his fights. There has to be risk. So if you have BJ as strong or perhaps stronger than M, this is a series of clues in addition to being an action scene. So learning to write better combat will increase the learning curve of your reader, as well as you.

In other words, I don't think that adding additional characters is a waste of time or that it is counter-productive to your primary goal. I've gone to a talk or two about romance. A consistent theme is that editors are looking for good stories with a love story in there. To do that, you need to work on the mystery because that is what you are selling in the first chapter.

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478 Reply by njc

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

The steward won't be able to take Matthew's place.  Also, he's got to stay close enough to the castle that he can't be off arranging things.  Peter is a far better suspect in every way.

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479 Reply by amy s

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Maybe it is Peter and the Steward. THat way, we are both right.

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Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

I don't understand, sorry.

So, more suspects make it automatically a better mystery or if you don't have a legion of suspects, it's a half-washed attempt at a mystery? Why? I have no issue with readers guessing who dunnit and or guess right from a limited pool of suspects - they still need to read to the end to confirm their suspicion and to find out WHY this is all happening.

Why does it have to be hard/impossible/so complicated that they have no clue right up to the end? That is not avoiding the mystery, that is trying to make sure the mystery does not become the prime storyline, drowning the Romance with a capital R. This whole thing of trying to make it impossible to guess or be so subtle with any clues that readers don't even know it's a clue is not what I'm trying to achieve, primarily because I don't want the mystery to overshadow the Romance, not because I don't care or it's too hard to even try. And I have no problem with writers that try to that either, it's just not what I'm going for, because Romance.

I have always said, this is first and foremost a Romance. And I'm still saying, this is first and foremost a Romance. It is not a mystery with a love story component. The mystery is the inciting incident and that is all there is to it. But neither does it mean I have a brilliant excuse to do a half-washed job of the mystery. The mystery I have presented in the first chapter of NS will be resolved in NS, but more importantly, not at the expense of the Romance I have presented in the first chapter.

As a side-note - Right at the end there will be a hint at a bigger mystery which will lead into book 2. And right at the end of book 2, there will be a hint that the bigger mystery is even bigger and goes even further back than originally thought, leading into book 3. I can also say, I'm not writing a series. Each book in the end will be written such that each can be read independently. *Yeap, I like pain!* So far, there is nothing in NS to make anyone think otherwise - that is all coming from replies to reviews and comments I've made in forums ...

I'm also starting to suspect you have Black John, Matthew (Earl of Norwood) and Anthony (Anthony Aiden, Baron Aiden) all mixed up. The last chapter you reviewed, Matthew was training young men, Black John and Anthony/Aiden were sparring. Matthew was enjoying the show. I have no idea what you are saying when you say here:

A sparring match isn't a battle, but M gets portrayed as tougher if he beats BJ. BJ's reaction gives clues on how persistent he is, how much hurt he is willing to take, and how far he is willing to go. (Ergo…leading to whether he is a suspect or not).

BJ can wait for his turn to shine. Matthew is just about to enter another situation to prove his worth in a fight (the first one was the raid on A's tower) and it's not the last opportunity either. First, BJ and A will match each other, and then M will and will be portrayed, hopefully, as tough enough.

I also don't understand this:

I never have any doubt that M is going to win his fights. There has to be risk.

This would be true if BJ or A was the bad guy. So far, IMO, the bad guy is making M's life pretty miserable and anything I would call easy or 'no risk'. M isn't fighting BJ or A .... So do you really think, if you think back in terms of the mystery bad guy, that there's no risk or it's too easy for M?

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481 Reply by amy s

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

OK, I'm going to think out loud. This isn't me saying something I'm firm and fixed upon.  I'm trying to wrap my head around (R ) romance so that I don't preach about how to write a book that you don't want to write.

I did screw up who was fighting. Point taken. And I also remember teasing you about drinking the water instead of ale. (Good nit back). (FYI, I like the watered-down ale for hydration.) I just think that shorting the fight scenes isn't advancing your plot.  You start the story with a mystery and I think you can do this without deleting the (R ) romance.

Here is me thinking.

Distraction and deflection are basic concepts of a good mystery. Ex: Mote in God's Eye by Larry Niven and Jerry Purnelle. A fact is mentioned in the beginning that the 'rats' have six limbs. 'Time demons' are shown in a museum exhibit, and explained away despite the fact they have five limbs and a grasping claw. Then there are 500 pages of info explaining why 'Moties' should be allowed to join habitable space. Then the MC sees the 'rats' again and puts 2+2 together and realizes that the 'rats' have been engineered to form soldiers. That the sculpture in the museum was about a real incident and 'Moties' were actually the warriors, extremely aggressive and have been involved in massive scale destruction.

This was done with one word and only 68 pages left in the book.

Distraction: The 'Moties' fight amongst themselves as they try to get the perfect representation. They start a really big war. There are humans who need to be rescued. There are factions who try to help the humans.

Deflection: 500 fricking pages of interesting material. All the sociology workup. The math of the star drives. (by a Caltech grad)

I think my husband's word for the epiphany was, "Fuuuuuu**!"

That said, presenting your clues in the beginning, having a lot of distraction (heaving bosoms and glistening brows) and deflection (A lot of events and searching…maybe an innocent gets kidnapped or someone has to be saved...) Then only clues you may need are a a series of characters who weren't present at certain events and using these facts to implicate them. This can be sufficient to keep your (R ) romance in play. That way, the characters only have to make a spreadsheet (pun intended) and they can figure out the bad guy at the end.

I like this solution. It keeps your story on track (at least in my mind). The (R ) romance is the distraction and forwards your goals. It lets your writing take its own path. It satisfies me because there is a plan and I know how to help you and stay out of the way.

Is this more accurate a description (in Amy language) of what you are going for?

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Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

amy s wrote:

Maybe it is Peter and the Steward. THat way, we are both right.

Okay, I'll pity you guys and throw you a bone. You're getting warmer. It's not just one person ...

I have to ask ... Do you guys still remember James Forster? I gave him a whole scene from his POV. And Davie? He's so cute and damn likeable, isn't he? But he tends to be where everywhere where there's trouble. yikes

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483 Reply by njc

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Good points.  Yes, I've assumed that Peter as the most workable motive--gain.  But what about revenge?  Who would go this far and endanger this many people for revenge?  Of course, it's always good to have your reader fixated in the wrong direction.

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Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Amy

I was starting to get worried, but now I don't worry anymore. If your problem was with the Romance, then I would've been worried. But, since you have a problem with the Mystery, I'm starting to think, that's a good thing, the M is not more important or overshadowing the R. That's a good thing, right? So how good are you?! smile

I'm busy writing a chapter where Matthew will get some info that throws the apple cart over. Remember Isaac said the bad guy tried to sound like he was from the around the border but he was convinced he wasn't from the border? Well, Matthew is going to talk to another person who says the exact opposite ... the bad guy tried to make it sound he's from somewhere else, but he's definitely from around the border. And if you think about it, that makes sense since he moves around without anyone taking special notes or interest. I wonder if njc will still think Peter is it after this. Will have to see. It does support your theory though ... although the castle Steward is old. But then again, not too old for what's been happening. Who knows?! smile

So the next few chapters may change your mind on the distraction and deflection side of things. And here I thought bed-sport was enough to distract! LOL

Someone is going to be kidnapped too! But closer to the end. And there is something that you do that is really annoying and should really stop - I have no idea how you do it, but every time when you say/said: 'consider this, consider that, do this, do that', I tell you, no lies, I was planning to that right the next chapter. But now you suggest it, and when I do it, it looks like you suggested it and I wasn't planning to do it all along! That's really annoying. And then I think, damn Amy, damn you Amy, now it looks like I'm just waiting for your reviews and then do what you suggest! LOL I've since get used to it. smile

The water is an easy fix - I just need for someone to mention something. And I need to decide whether they have access to a clean water source (the well at the castle) or streams when they're riding about. Streams depends on what is upstream and the elevation (elevation influences where people live, so that's why it's usually safe to assume when you're high up in mountains, you can drink the water as there will be very unlikely be a village upstream). My research reference is based on London - they definitely didn't have access to clean drinking water and everyone from weaned toddlers to old people drank ale. And lots of ale. As I said, not a sober society. We're all good!

Too long : didn't read (TL:DR) - All good, we're on the same page! Thanks for the feedback and support. Keep it coming - you sometimes do get it right and then you're annoying, but I still like you despite of that! wink

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Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

njc wrote:

Good points.  Yes, I've assumed that Peter as the most workable motive--gain.  But what about revenge?  Who would go this far and endanger this many people for revenge?  Of course, it's always good to have your reader fixated in the wrong direction.

Peter does have the best motive for sure! Feuds on the border between families stretched over generations - they do not forget, ever - so revenge is always possible and very applicable.

I'm just adding to the list of suspects to help you guys. Or maybe not!

Here's another bone - it's definitely not Anthony, Catherine or any of Matthew's closest friends (Black John, Tom, Robert, Henry, George). If you stop guessing, I can get the next chapter done! LOL

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486 Reply by njc

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

In short, in matters vegetable, animal, or mineral / I am the very model of a modern Major General!

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Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

KHippolite wrote:

What's all this about mystery and gain vs revenge? Where's the boinking?

LOL You're behind on your reviews, that's your own fault! tongue I'm also slightly worried now that I'm turning the future of fantasy/magic/mystery writers into Romance readers ...

I wish! LOL

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Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Boinking ... I'm going to use that for my next warning. Which reminds me, I was supposed to use on of Amy's for a warning and I didn't - need to look for that one too. grrrr, unforgiveable of me!

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489 Reply by amy s

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

I shall stop making predictions and sit on my laurels lest I fail in being right all the time. Better to quit with a perfect record...

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490 Reply by njc

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Anant the review: my tongue is definitely inside *my own* cheek!

Two or three days for Matthew without Catherine, and Catherine without Matthew?  They'll be like springs bent to the breaking point.  But that's what you planned, isn't it, you cruel author?

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Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

njc wrote:

Anant the review: my tongue is definitely inside *my own* cheek!

Two or three days for Matthew without Catherine, and Catherine without Matthew?  They'll be like springs bent to the breaking point.  But that's what you planned, isn't it, you cruel author?

LOL, that's what I meant, *your* cheek! hahahaha

And no, it wasn't me! That's is all the bad guy's fault too! smile

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Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

I've hit a massive milestone today!

40,000+ words

I'm half-way there!!!!! whoo-hoo!!!!

Only problem ... no boozzzzzz in the house to celebrate sad

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493 Reply by amy s

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

(Virtual wine glass appears)

Clink!

Quote Post 493

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

amy s wrote:

(Virtual wine glass appears)

Clink!

Just a glass? Not a bottle? sad

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Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

janet reid wrote:
amy s wrote:

(Virtual wine glass appears)

Clink!

Just a glass? Not a bottle? sad

I have two bottles in my fridge... plus loads of chocolate from Christmas. I could celebrate on your behalf? ;D

-Elisheva

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Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Elisheva Free wrote:
janet reid wrote:
amy s wrote:

(Virtual wine glass appears)

Clink!

Just a glass? Not a bottle? sad

I have two bottles in my fridge... plus loads of chocolate from Christmas. I could celebrate on your behalf? ;D

-Elisheva

You are my new hero. Clearly well prepared for any eventuality! Wine + chocolates. That's EXACETEDLY my style! Thanks for helping me out on this one!!! big_smile

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497 Reply by amy s

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Calorie free as well. Just not as fun if the chocolates aren't in front of your face.

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Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

I need some help, please.

I have shown a raid (where Matthew had 2 sword fights and was the victor in both) and he had a fist fight against a hardened reiver (the reiver came second). There also was a detailed training scene where he was sparring with young men. However, he didn't fight Black John or Anthony (Black John and Anthony fought).

So I'm now unsure if another training session needs to be covered in detail just to have Matthew fight against Anthony (he already kicked his ass during the raid on Aiden Tower) or against Black John (it will only serve to show Matthew's fighting skills once again).

What do you guys and girls think? Just skip over it to the next big event? Or do you think another scene is required to establish Matthew's fighting skills/abilities as awesome? Or is it already established? I think for a Romance it's good enough, but would appreciate other's opinions too!

Thanks! Janet

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499 Reply by njc

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

If you put another such scene it, that action should be background to other events.  Maybe show Mathew as a versatile fighter?

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500 Reply by amy s

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

I owe you more than one review and will look at the pace. Since you are in doubt, suggest that you go ahead with the story and add the other combat later once the first draft is done. That way, you can get M back to the keep so he can treat C like a prize of war:-)

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