Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Archery fell out of use for warfare in the mid 1600s and was replaced by muskets which were being made much better by that time. It then became very popular as a sport for women. (It had always been popular as a sport for men).

However at the time of Northern Skies archery was still used for war. And the bows quite difficult to use by a small or weak person. Draw weight was well over 100 pounds, some bows were as much as 175 pounds. Archers had to be quite strong in the upper body and arms to pull the string back. Women rarely shot (I think Queen Elizabeth learned). It was considered unladylike, masculine, certainly not a weapon for a woman to learn.

If women learned to fight, (and not many did at this time) they would use a small sword or a spear. The spear was actually the traditional weapon for women.

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

amy s wrote:

Re feathers:

Janet, I have GOT to get you to an SCA event. What are you doing in August? Would you be open to a week at the Pennsic war?

You NEED to go shopping with me. You won't have these questions any longer.

Hand crafted arrows are absolutely identifiable by the maker. Enough that your assassin would have bought them from elsewhere rather than being traced back to him. (A bow is a woman's weapon, so I saw that with reservations) fletching, three or four fletching on arrows, the precision of the craftsmanship, how well the goose feathers were glued, etc. Remember that arrows are usually shot into targets and damaging the fletch? Or were they used new? (Unlikely)

Since arrows are used on practice targets, you want to identify your arrows from another so you can collect them after a practice shoot. And find them in the scruff if you miss at distance. (White feathers are much easier to see)

So I would have the person paint the arrows after purchase. Something personal that means something to only them. Key is, arrows are sold in bundles. You lose them during practice all the time. This person is missing one. And there are others out there WITH THE SAME MARK PATTERN. Find those arrows and you find the assassin.

Personally, I would go to where people practice archery and search the grass. You can shoot at a hay bale, but you will lose your arrows all the time. Bundled targets are where this person practices because he/she is good.

You won't know how much I'd like to go! I'll talk to Mr. C and see what happens, but it all depends a lot on what happens at home. There is a chance he's going to commission a project (he designed BTW - poor him, if something turns out to be wrong or not working, he's going to be there to take the flack!) in Kazakstan. If that happens, there is no way I'd be able to do it. But let's see closer to the time (or the time I really need to commit). *crosses fingers*

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

KHippolite wrote:

Just to be my usual thorn in your side, you might have pigeon-holed yourself again (the previous time was with Matthew & Catherine's "random" encounter that couldn't be during a roof repair and couldn't be in a town and couldn't be in a cellar).

Well, I got out of that one okay, I think. So far, 2 people (Janet TP and Rebecca), I won't name any names to make those who are falling behind on NS feel bad, had said it worked and didn't come across as forced. So, HA! Take that!

But yes I'm brilliant with getting myself tied into all kinds of knots. Unfortunately, unlike others (K), who I won't name, I can't just go and kill characters when they get in the way. tongue

454 (edited by janet reid 2015-12-05 00:28:36)

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Rebecca Vaughn wrote:

Archery fell out of use for warfare in the mid 1600s and was replaced by muskets which were being made much better by that time. It then became very popular as a sport for women. (It had always been popular as a sport for men).

However at the time of Northern Skies archery was still used for war. And the bows quite difficult to use by a small or weak person. Draw weight was well over 100 pounds, some bows were as much as 175 pounds. Archers had to be quite strong in the upper body and arms to pull the string back. Women rarely shot (I think Queen Elizabeth learned). It was considered unladylike, masculine, certainly not a weapon for a woman to learn.

If women learned to fight, (and not many did at this time) they would use a small sword or a spear. The spear was actually the traditional weapon for women.

To add, on the Northern Border the use of long bows survived even longer and only came to an end on the other side of 1600 - (1) because the borderers were really good with the long bow but also (2) the wet weather made the use of muskets really tricky (many hands were lost that way).

Also, the bows and strings could be adapted for someone with a weaker upper body, but this would have been typically for tournaments and such, not combat.

It's very hard to say to what extent women could fight on the border given the general decay and lawlessness, but I think it's a safe assumption to make that they also would've had some sort of preferred weapon to defend themselves. There is no doubt that everyone had to do their bit when the time came, children too.

Add: The upper arms and thumbs/fingers of archers from days were also unnaturally large from all the hours of practising and shooting. I'll need to look it up whether it would the right arm and left hand or the other way around, I'm too lazy today. Sorry. But you get the drift.

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

K, give my cad (and me) some credit! As if he would be using his own stuff and dropping shit all over the place and get identified that way. pffffttttt, way too easy! Not going to happen. But yeah, I'm in a hole, so I have started digging ....

****SPOILER ALERT****
****SPOILER ALERT****
****SPOILER ALERT****

It's not the blackguard's arrow - it's one of Matthew's. I haven't added any specifics, so that is one way to dig me out of the hole (keep it generic and don't list the qualities that makes it Matthew's - as long as it would be possible to identify the arrow as his without doubt). But it would've been nice to say: well, if you look at this feather and this so-and-so, it's mine.

So yeah, the bad guy shot Geordie using one of Matthew's arrows ... Like Black John is going to say: "That is one hell of a message." (to Matthew and the others who is supposed to keep him safe).

456

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Oooh!  You called him a backguard!  I've got shivers up my spine.

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

njc wrote:

Oooh!  You called him a backguard!  I've got shivers up my spine.

I'm busy to thesaurus the hell out of "bad guy" while I'm writing! smile

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

I belive a lot of Scotish women learned to fight with swords and spears so their southern neighbors might also have learned as well.

You shoot according to you dominant eye. As most people (about 2/3 of the population) are right eyed, they would lean to shoot right handed. People who are lefted eyed would have to learn left handed which would be difficult if they were right handed.

Weak bows under 70 pounds were not efficient weapons and would only have been used to teach children to shoot.They would not have been able to penetrate any armor and would have had a limited range.

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

janet reid wrote:

K, give my cad (and me) some credit! As if he would be using his own stuff and dropping shit all over the place and get identified that way. pffffttttt, way too easy! Not going to happen. But yeah, I'm in a hole, so I have started digging ....

****SPOILER ALERT****
****SPOILER ALERT****
****SPOILER ALERT****

It's not the blackguard's arrow - it's one of Matthew's. I haven't added any specifics, so that is one way to dig me out of the hole (keep it generic and don't list the qualities that makes it Matthew's - as long as it would be possible to identify the arrow as his without doubt). But it would've been nice to say: well, if you look at this feather and this so-and-so, it's mine.

So yeah, the bad guy shot Geordie using one of Matthew's arrows ... Like Black John is going to say: "That is one hell of a message." (to Matthew and the others who is supposed to keep him safe).

Then definitely have the bird feathers unusual and the shaft painted! Matthew is rich, he can afford it!

460

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Rebecca Vaughn wrote:

You shoot according to you dominant eye. As most people (about 2/3 of the population) are right eyed, they would lean to shoot right handed. People who are lefted eyed would have to learn left handed which would be difficult if they were right handed.

I suspect that most left-eyed people are left-handed.  I'm a southpaw and my eye dominance is mixed: right for reading, left for everything else.  I suspect a lot of lefties have such mixed dominance, and that this contributes greatly to the poor handwriting southpaws are famous for.  We have to learn twice, once with the left eye for the letterforms, and again with the right eye for writing from language.

(Since I started learning shorthand later in life, I was able to observe the process while learning to write all over again.  See my book covers.)

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Rebecca Vaughn wrote:
janet reid wrote:

K, give my cad (and me) some credit! As if he would be using his own stuff and dropping shit all over the place and get identified that way. pffffttttt, way too easy! Not going to happen. But yeah, I'm in a hole, so I have started digging ....

****SPOILER ALERT****
****SPOILER ALERT****
****SPOILER ALERT****

It's not the blackguard's arrow - it's one of Matthew's. I haven't added any specifics, so that is one way to dig me out of the hole (keep it generic and don't list the qualities that makes it Matthew's - as long as it would be possible to identify the arrow as his without doubt). But it would've been nice to say: well, if you look at this feather and this so-and-so, it's mine.

So yeah, the bad guy shot Geordie using one of Matthew's arrows ... Like Black John is going to say: "That is one hell of a message." (to Matthew and the others who is supposed to keep him safe).

Then definitely have the bird feathers unusual and the shaft painted! Matthew is rich, he can afford it!

smile

Thanks for this!

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

I don't know. 33% of any population is left eyed but only 10% of any population is left handed. I don't think there can be much of a correlation. My sister is left handed and right eyed and the archery instructor implied that that was common for left handers to be right eyed and have to shoot right handed.

I do know there is so genetics involved (left handedness tends to run in families) so maybe eye dominance does to? If that is so then maybe a particular family could have both a lot of left handers and a lot of left eye dominance? I don't know much about biology so many I shouldn't speculate...

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

njc wrote:
Rebecca Vaughn wrote:

You shoot according to you dominant eye. As most people (about 2/3 of the population) are right eyed, they would lean to shoot right handed. People who are lefted eyed would have to learn left handed which would be difficult if they were right handed.

I suspect that most left-eyed people are left-handed.  I'm a southpaw and my eye dominance is mixed: right for reading, left for everything else.  I suspect a lot of lefties have such mixed dominance, and that this contributes greatly to the poor handwriting southpaws are famous for.  We have to learn twice, once with the left eye for the letterforms, and again with the right eye for writing from language.

(Since I started learning shorthand later in life, I was able to observe the process while learning to write all over again.  See my book covers.)

You're won't believe this! I'm also a left-handed! *high five* But I'm right eye dominant for everything, so my handwriting is pretty. tongue

In any case, I bat (like in cricket and base-ball) right-handed, because I was taught to do it that way. Everything else, I do with my left, including opening cans with a right-handed can opener. I'll stop now, the stories I can tell you about being left-handed are plenty. smile

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Rebecca Vaughn wrote:

I don't know. 33% of any population is left eyed but only 10% of any population is left handed. I don't think there can be much of a correlation. My sister is left handed and right eyed and the archery instructor implied that that was common for left handers to be right eyed and have to shoot right handed.

I do know there is so genetics involved (left handedness tends to run in families) so maybe eye dominance does to? If that is so then maybe a particular family could have both a lot of left handers and a lot of left eye dominance? I don't know much about biology so many I shouldn't speculate...

I shoot right-handed too, now that you mention it. Okay, I bat and shoot with my right hand, everything else, left ...

465

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

I find it hard to believe that fully a third of the population is left-eyed, given that SLR manufacturers have never made cameras designed for this segment.  Especially before the advent of the (relatively) inexpensive motor drive, left-eye operation of an SLR was a very clumsy business.

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

I have no idea how the statistics are collected so I couldn't say on the accuasy of them. sad

I do know that a lot of people assume that because they are right handed they must be right eyed, and are shocked when they find out they are actually left eyed! My husband is right handed and left eyed. So for archery he needs a left handed bow. But cameras are different. He has no problem taking pictures with his right eye.

467

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

If he can switch for the camera, he should be able to learn to switch for the bow.  It used to be a standard technique when using a microscope.

468

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Oh, archeologists can identify trained longbow archers by changes both in arm bones and in the spine, which takes on a permanent bend in the direction to which it is so long twisted and in which it is so long stressed.

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

njc wrote:

If he can switch for the camera, he should be able to learn to switch for the bow.  It used to be a standard technique when using a microscope.


I think bows are very different than cameras and microscopes. A very skilled archer could learn to shoot for the opposite eye, I suppose, a lot like a master swordsmen may also learn to fence with the none dominant hand. But that is a lot of work! It could take 12 years to master a medieval bow! To then do all that work for the other way? Yikes!

470

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Great conversation. No comments. I've never thought about being right or left eye dominant. Intriguing.

471 (edited by njc 2015-12-05 07:04:18)

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

I don't think it would be a full 12 years, and even if the price was a loss in accuracy or range the ability to fire after the dominant muscles tired might be useful.

Amy, optometrists seem to think of mixed dominance in terms of near and far, but the far test is individual letters (geometric form) and the near test is a reading card (language).   I can read simple music at singing speed (okay, I'm rusty) but only if I force a switch to my right eye and process it with the high-speed language part of my brain.

These fault lines are sharper in southpaws than in dexters, but southpaws have faster average reaction times, according to both MLB and the US Air Force.  Back when it was the Army Air Force, they tested Babe Ruth and found that he had the fastest reactions they had yet tested.

472

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

So I could cover one eye with an eyepatch and memorize pirate songs, switch to the eye and sing it better? Brings new meaning to talk like a pirate day.


On a more serious note, could I read faster and retain more if I excluded one eye? Gonna have to try.

473

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Probably not.  You're almost certainly reading with the best eye.  The reason I have to force the switch for music is because I'm not well-practiced and music doesn''t yet look like language to my left eye.
The same thing may be happening with shlorthand.  I'll have to pay attention to it to see.

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

amy s wrote:

So I could cover one eye with an eyepatch and memorize pirate songs, switch to the eye and sing it better? Brings new meaning to talk like a pirate day.


On a more serious note, could I read faster and retain more if I excluded one eye? Gonna have to try.

Try reading with both eyes. Now that's weird! Going back to just reading without thinking which eye(s) I'm using.

Re: Northern Skies - Janet!

Ames ...

I said: Just when it seemed as if Aiden was about to capitulate ...
You said: we need to work on your fighting descriptions. Hit me up on the forums and I'll give you a few ideas

I'm hitting you.

The problem might be it's too telling rather than I need help with fighting descriptions ... i.e. Anthony could stumble, shift his sword awkwardly, have Black John score more hits/make more contact, etc. instead of just having Matthew noting his strength was deteriorating fast with every blow he deflected, his counterattacks were weak or as good as non-existing, or that it seems as if he is at the verge of giving-up?

To be honest, I can describe each blow blow by blow as per your suggestion or I can give readers a bit more freedom to imagine it for themselves - I think they have enough info to be able to do that. There's a reason that I don't want to give too much time/power to Black John or Anthony and it might not be so much that I don't 'know' how to describe fights (I would hope I proved this point when Matthew got involved with a fight or two during the raid). This is Matthew's book, the other two can wait for their turn book 2 and book 3 and by going into too much detail when Matthew isn't fighting, it could create a different (bigger/more undesirable) problem - leaving readers wondering who's the hero again? Oh, yes, the guy watching the awesome fight. Why is he the hero again?

When Black J and A fight against Matthew, and believe me, it's coming as sure as winter is coming in GOT, I'll give details. They will both be worthy opponents (given they're going to be the heros in the coming books and not to make it too easy for Matthew), but as I said, only when they fighting Matthew.

It could also be simply a problem that Matthew 'should' be the one fighting against Anthony to teach him the ropes. I don't want him to do that, that's what Black J is there for - to toughen them up and just when they think they're sliced bread, Matthew cuts them to size again.

Does this make any sense? Thoughts?