1 (edited by Dirk B. 2020-11-11 05:30:32)

Topic: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle a lot of dialogue within dialogue? It comes up quite a bit when someone in a story is, in turn, telling a story involving dialogue. Below is a somewhat contrived example I carved out of some recent fan fiction. The paragraphs in bold are the storyteller (Elrond) speaking to his audience (which includes Luke). The rest is nested dialogue, including some minimal narration. The bold won't be in the fan fiction, but the blank lines would be. Note the switch from double to single quotes.

"An Imperial walker delivered Luke to me at the landing platform, his wrists in restraints. The officer in charge gave me Luke’s lightsaber. I dismissed him, leaving Luke and me alone for the first time in many years.


'Hello, Luke.'
'Hello, Elrond.'
'It’s good to see you again.'
Luke looked at me sadly. 'I never thought we’d end up on opposite sides of the war.'


"I wanted to take him into my confidence and reveal my plan, but it was too dangerous. Palpatine was an incredibly powerful Sith Lord. One slip by Luke and my plan would’ve fallen apart, leaving Palpatine aware he had been manipulated. He would not fall for the same ruse twice.


'Vader will be here shortly,' I told Luke.
'You don’t need to do this,' he said, using the Force in an attempt to influence my mind. 'Walk into the forest and disappear.'
'I can’t do that. I have a role to play, as do you.'


"We spent the next thirty minutes mostly in silence, waiting for Vader. When he arrived, he told me, 'Leave us. Find his companions.'"

In the fan fiction in question, Elrond weaves in and out of his story frequently (sips his drink, coughs, smiles, nods, etc.), and Luke also interrupts, so it's not something I can tell in one continuous flashback scene. Nested quotation marks don't work well for the total amount of dialogue in Elrond's story. Also tricky is the fact that sometimes Elrond only relates one line of dialogue within dialogue (see last sentence of the example above), which probably should use nested quotation marks.

Is there a better way to do this?

Thanks.
Dirk

2 (edited by John Hamler 2020-11-13 09:28:25)

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

*I could see that Skywalker saw that he'd failed to manipulate me. Thusly, we spent the next thirty minutes, mostly in silence, waiting for Vader. Once the Lord arrived, the Sith immediately dismissed me, saying, "Leave us. And find his companions."

That's the way I'd write it, but who cares. I like the dialogue exchange because it conveys mood. Simple and friendly but with a measure of annoyance that hints at larger outcomes. I dunno. I love Star Wars and this scene made me think of the scene in Return of the Jedi where Vader examines Luke's lightsaber. So I'm curious... Is ELROND an Imperial turncoat? Shit. Now I just wanna read this fan fiction thing!

That's neither here nor there, I guess. As far as the dialogue goes, I don't see a problem. Adverbs like SADLY don't need to be there because you can write better, but... There's really NO BETTER WAY TO DO THIS from what I can tell.

Godspeed

John

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

Thank you, John. Yes, Elrond is an imperial turncoat. He's actually a Whill, a race of godlike beings who use their powers to maintain balance in the Force.

I took the short story down because it needed more work. It should be back up this weekend in two or three easily digestible parts.

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

Is the story mostly about Elrond and how he inter? Can you just tell it first person from his POV, and use the quotes normally?

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

I agree with CJ, it sounds like Elrond is merely the narrator and wouldn't be in quotes so the dialogue would proceed as normal. If that is not the case, then you might consider making it the case. Take care. Vern

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

I agree. It's odd usage. The narrator shouldn't be in quotes and the dialogue should be in double quote. Single quotes are generally used when recollecting what was said.

7 (edited by Dirk B. 2020-11-14 14:34:21)

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

I'm not sure how that would work. The characters in the story weave in and out of the tale, talking to each other, moving around, etc. Also, there is more than one narrator; other characters jump in and tell parts of the historic events.

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

If you have more than one narrator, you can separate by chapters and head the chapters with the narrator's name- cueing in the reader to whom is speaking. I've seen that done effectively both on this site and off. However, the most effective way to do that would be to style the voices differently. Make sure the narrator sounds different to the ear of the reader.

9 (edited by Linda Lee 2020-11-15 16:36:23)

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

Dirk B. wrote:

I'm not sure how that would work. The characters in the story weave in and out of the tale, talking to each other, moving around, etc. Also, there is more than one narrator; other characters jump in and tell parts of the historic events.

If characters are talking to each other directly, it should get handled the same as you would for all dialogue; double quotes, tags etc. But if the narrator isn't speaking to another character, it doesn't classify as dialogue anymore unless he's speaking it all aloud to himself--which might work in tiny snippets, but would be quite odd and tiresome in a long read. 

I'm a heavy dialogue writer and all of my stories have many characters weaving in and out, talking to each other etc. I also generally have a narrator (usually the MC). It's not difficult to accomplish this if you pay close attention to creating character voice, utilizing solid transitions, good tagging and employ solid punctuation consistently.

As far as multiple narrators, there are loads of available techniques to do this effectively--the top 2 being differentiating characters by giving each a unique voice, and creating rock solid transitions--so switches between narrating characters are crystal clear to the reader. Switching heads in a 1st person narrative isn't an easy thing by any stretch--which is why so many writers go the route (the lazy one IMHO) of titling who is speaking, or using new chapters to switch heads. It's so widely done (especially these days) because getting good at creating written transitions takes a lot of work.

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

Thank you, Linda. Not to beat this to death, but the characters who are telling this shared tale (using double quotes) also relate dialogue that was spoken within the tale. That requires nesting quotes, which is what you see in my initial post in this thread. Maybe I'm just missing something...

Thanks
Dirk

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

I tinkered a tiny bit with your example.
   
An Imperial walker delivered Luke to me at the landing platform, his wrists in restraints. The officer in charge handed over Luke’s lightsaber before turning to depart, leaving Luke and me alone for the first time in many years.  (small edit to rid it of quotation and attribute correctly--you had a 'he' which would have been attributed to Luke as the last person mentioned, and you weren't referring to Luke at all. I switched it around to get rid of that)

   "Hello, Luke."
   "Elrond." (removed the second hello to rid it of echo effect--see echo dialogue)
   "It’s good to see you again."
   "Is it?" he asked, twisting his wrists against the restraints. "I never thought we’d end up on opposite sides of the war."

    I wanted to take him into my confidence and reveal my plan, but it was too dangerous. ((which is why it wouldn't ever be in double quotes because then the other person in this 2-person scene would hear exactly what he's thinking)) Palpatine was an incredibly powerful Sith Lord. One slip by Luke and my plan would’ve fallen apart, leaving Palpatine aware he had been manipulated. He would not fall for the same ruse twice.

    "Vader will be here shortly," I said. (changed the tag because with only 2 people in the scene, it's obvious who he spoke to)
    "You don’t need to do this," he said, ((using the Force in an attempt to influence my mind.)) this part makes no sense because it feels as though it's a piece of narrative stuck within a dialogue tag, which is confusing and doesn't work. "Walk into the forest and disappear." I'm assuming this piece of dialogue is Luke trying to use the Force? If so, it needs to be reworked for clarity and should probably be in it's own line with clear-cut action tags.
    "I can’t do that, Luke. I have a role to play, as do you." (added the name for clarity sake)

    We spent the next thirty minutes mostly in silence, waiting for Vader. When he arrived, he told me, 'Leave us. Find his companions.' I did exactly as instructed and took my leave in haste. (I changed it up a tiny bit and chose to leave what Vader said in single quote because the narration is being told in past tense as a recollection--therefore double quotes would be incorrect AND turn it into a tense flip)
~~~~
This doesn't address dual narrative, but it's punctuated so that narrative isn't being spoken aloud, and what is spoken aloud is punctuated appropriately as spoken word.

12 (edited by Linda Lee 2020-11-15 17:49:15)

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

Dirk B. wrote:

Thank you, Linda. Not to beat this to death, but the characters who are telling this shared tale (using double quotes) also relate dialogue that was spoken within the tale. That requires nesting quotes, which is what you see in my initial post in this thread. Maybe I'm just missing something...

Thanks
Dirk

Double quote are used to depict words spoken out loud. Generally used in dialogue between 2 or more characters. However, you can have words spoken aloud with only a single character (I often scream "Fuck" at other drivers when alone in my car), but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Single quotes are generally reserved to reference something said in past tense. It can be used in narration and in active dialogue. It's simply a way to portray a recollection of spoken word.

Narration, depending on the type (there are several), is generally where the reader gets a much more in-depth peek at what the character is thinking or feeling. It's also used to fill in subtext (things that aren't said), define stakes, flesh out details, or to illustrate the stark differences between what a character thinks and what he says.  The narrative in your example was strong because it fleshed out the stakes, gave us a peek into what he was really thinking (but not saying) and filled in a few informational holes. Putting all that in quotes would get very confusing to the reader...because it changes it from narration, to dialogue.

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

Hi Dirk

What you have here is something my editor would throw red ink at, it's telling backstory through dialogue.

Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, entered the graveyard. He was upset at his step father, Claudius, for marrying his mother Gertrude. His friend Horatio agreed.

Crowd: Don't do this. We don't need all this backstory. Show us the heart of the character and the action.
Writer: What defines action?
Crowd: What the characters say or do
Writer: Oh! That's easy!

Hamlet: "I am Hamlet, Prince of Denmark"
Horatio: "How do you feel about your mother, Gertrude, marrying Claudius?"
Hamlet: "So soon after my father's death, yea the cakes were not yet cooled. Forsooth, I was upset at Claudius."

Now, aside from the fact that Shakespeare pretty much did exactly this, it's getting a little frowned on because it doesn't produce natural two-way dialogue. It tends to sound like people stating facts for an invisible 3rd person.

Doesn't help you here, but chipping it in because I see Linda has detected that and straightened it back into narrative like my editor would.

Also note that the danger of the moment is in the past at which point Luke's actions may cause the narrator danger. This method removes any chance of such suspense by punting the danger into the past (admittedly another trick the Great Bard got away with).

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

Thank you, all. As some of you have pointed out, it needs to be structured differently, which would require a rewrite. Also, as CJ pointed out in his review, the dialogue in question doesn't really add much. The quick fix is to rip it out. Nevertheless, it was surprising/interesting to write myself into a corner. Haven't done that in a while. :-)

Thanks again.
Dirk

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

Hey Dirk,
The comments from the ghosts was more intriguing. Maybe you should have Elrond tell the story, and have Luke and Yoda chime in. Heck, maybe Anikan can show up and there could be a debate. Could’ve be hilarious.

16

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

My approach: Start dialogue, drop into flashback.  Return from flashback, use closing dialogue.  I've got limited practice, but if it's needed for the story it can work.

Re: How to handle lots of dialogue within dialogue?

It sounds like most of the struggles you're having has to do with your chosen POV. Have you considered trying it in 3rd Omni? The all seeing eye of 3rd Omni would allow you to delve more easily into many heads. The added bonus of choosing that POV given the type of tale you're aiming for is you won't need difficult transitions because the narrator handles that for you--in that pov you're allowed to give perspective from multiple main characters.