Re: The Galaxy Tales - Dirk B.
Sounds like a bit of excessive force
Fantasy/Magic & Sci-Fi → The Galaxy Tales - Dirk B.
Sounds like a bit of excessive force
Huh?
Mmm, I like the idea of Windsor giving him some spine, it also seems to tie in well with the rest of the story. So there's one vote for that option for what it's worth!
So, Australia goes for Windsor. You do realize, Janet, that I named her after the Queen, don't you? Windsor-Mountbatten, I believe is the correct spelling.
Sounds about right. Although where I'm at, there's only one queen, Queen Aussie!
First, I don't think I ever questioned that God was real. I assumed he wasn't because the voices are so different. Giving the boys a connection makes me wonder otherwise. It could just be a coincidence, but I would like to see something that could be misconstrued as real God.
As to mentioning it before the first draft was done? I didn't think of these things before I saw the big picture. I'm trying to suggest options that you can keep or discard. I don't think it is fair to point out my nits without suggesting solutions.
Amy, I left out the smilies in my post. I assumed they were implicit. Sorry about that. I've been emulating Kranky with his unique wit, so let's blame it all on him. :-)
As for God being real or not, I walk a fine line like a staggering drunk. Just when the reader thinks they're real, I do something that makes them sure they aren't. And vice versa. That's intentional since it adds a little fun, I think. One is the things God says whenever the two MCs are together: he says things about the non-POV MC as if he knows things about him that only God could know.
There are a number of other examples scrambled somewhere in my head. For example, when Apollo begins to trust God at the end of Act III, he gets arrested on New Beth. God tells him not to worry because that's exactly what's supposed to happen. Another is when God tells Joseph to volunteer at the haven hospital. He saves Anikh from the fire, only to have her die in his arms, which triggers his decision to create the Christian Heresy. Also, there are the muscle urges that allow Apollo to beat the shogun, as well as the urge to pee and his head jolting. For obvious reasons, there are always other explanations, even if the odds are very slim.
I'll be adding another one in v3. Joseph's God will use some expression regularly and Apollo's God will use it at least once in some obvious place in the story to create a WTF moment.
I've had reviewers tell me they were sure one way or the other about God, which suggests I'm achieving a reasonable balance between the two possibilities.
Again, sorry for the missing smilies. :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
Janet, I added "mate" to the chapter, as you suggested. It's hilarious. I only use it once at the end when the AI is pissed off about the lack of respect. It says: Listen, Mate, I've asked you repeatedly to refer to me as Queen Aussie...
that would be like trying to ignore the sun
The sun? Giver of life?
- I'm not surprised that you think Joseph is ambling along. He's caught up in a whirlwind that tosses him from one place to another (cadet massacre, Central Haven riot, slavery, prison, battle, etc.). However, he believes it's all part of God's plan and doesn't question how insane his actions are until his crisis of faith.
Interestingly, this is the most common complaint K w a n has drawn from the market - that she doesn't take enough of an active role in her own destiny. And it's very true. As one reader put it, "things happen to her".
- Apollo scheming? Apollo is also caught up in events beyond his crontrol. In his case, he's fighting God every step of the way, and the more he does, the more he fails. Only when he grows a pair and follows God is he able to gain control.
Usually it's the character who's willing to fight who gets our attention. The chance-takers - the gamblers who put their necks out to hire assassins in a cause they believe is right.
- I agree that Apollo's arc is more dramatic. I'll see if I can further amp up the tension in Joseph's chapter.
I don't believe that's possible within the desired structure. I also don't believe it's warranted. I did not suffer a disconnect between the two stories (Sorry, Amy). My disconnect, as you know,was Caligula.
You must picture Caligula as a character the writer finds interesting, but always remember he was not a sell character. As such, he must work that much harder to earn our pathos.
Think of him like my Marsha McKnight: a) absolutely essential to the plot b) 100% replaceable
(in my case by David McKnight and in your case by Apollo's little-used brothers)
Your unenviable task is to get me to feel one way or the other about him. You don't want me neutral on this guy. I should either love him or hate him so much, I want Apollo to kill him just to wipe the smirk off his face. There are a bazillion ways to accomplish the former, but having him kill Adam and Eve is a good start. Bonus points if he's despicable. Shooting tied up, helpless opponents is a good way to harvest those points (Joseph, I'm looking at you shooting a guy in handcuffs).
- As I mentioned in my response to Amy, Act II needs work. There isn't enough animosity between the MCs, fur flying, etc. I do have to stop a couple of times in the book to actually allow Joseph to define the Christian Heresy, beginning with the New Commandments, which slows the pace. His thoughts that lead him to unify the Essence, reincarnation, and evolution need trimming, but I think they're more interesting than the commandments.
This is the basic premise of the story. Why are you trimming that part?
- Is the end of Act II the neutral phase you refer to? If so, I'm confused, because that's where both the queen and emperor die. Most of Act II drags, except for the deaths at the end. Acts I & II need quite a bit of rewriting.
Remember Star Wars New Hope when Palpatine abolished the Senate? How his guards gunned down the senators and he rose, cackling with glee to accept his throne? No? Oh... it happened off camera.
- The introduction of a smart, scheming Caligula was too good to pass up
Agreed
. His scheme mirrors that of the Imperium's founder, which is a nice connection. I also needed a chapter from his point of view in order to hide the surprise that Apollo is still alive. .
Why hide it?
Writer: "Bob felt something brush his cheek"
Me: Is this a shard of metal? A fingertip? A tree branch? You kinda know this stuff even if its dark.
Writer: Oh, I don't want to say yet. It's for suspense.
So I ask of you... is there a benefit I'm not seeing to hiding a major character?
- The cult will truly go nowhere in book one.
Sure... as long as it was intentional and not an oversight, I'm down
- Personally, I found the lightsaber duel with Palpatine very enjoyable, were it not for the fact that Yoda looks CGI. The emperor hurling pods down at Yoda and cackling was fun. And who doesn't love Force lightning? The stupid leaping about by the CGI Yoda was a bore. I digress...
I needed more build to that to make me remotely interested. I would have liked to see a 10-15 minute sololiquy from Yoda about how he hates Palpatine for killing his puppy or something. It was literally two randoms going at it with lightsabers for me. All the magic / personability / pathos-driving of Expendables II but with half the action.
- I agree that Apollo should continue to fear discovery, although it's going to get tedious at some point. There's only so many ways I can shake an arm. Amy's idea of having them mumble their dialogue with God is a good one.
Stage 3:
After the mumbling stage he should start to see furtive mevements from the car of his eye. When he randonly turns to look, people are staring at him quizzically. He's not sure if they're doing it to unnerve him. He finds muddy footprints in his room when he wakes up. Security assures him no one was in there. He starts imagining Aphrodite is cheating on him. He can suddenly no longer write straight - he hires a scribe.
Stage 4:
He starts to worry about poison (specifically of the exploding bowel nature). Hires a tate tester. Hires a second backup tester. Aphrodite grows distant. He thinks it's a conspiracy. He randomly has her arrested and searched for evidence (comes up empty-handed). Good time to throw in an exploding car bomb from the Heresy.
Need more? Amy and Seabrass are also good at this.
PS: Joseph needs a burning bush encounter. It's kind of a Judaic staple.
Janet, I added "mate" to the chapter, as you suggested. It's hilarious. I only use it once at the end when the AI is pissed off about the lack of respect. It says: Listen, Mate, I've asked you repeatedly to refer to me as Queen Aussie...
You're my hero! I think that spot is perfect!
- I agree that Apollo's arc is more dramatic. I'll see if I can further amp up the tension in Joseph's chapter.
I don't believe that's possible within the desired structure. I also don't believe it's warranted. I did not suffer a disconnect between the two stories (Sorry, Amy).
The increased tension seems like a good idea. Most of it is already swirling in my head - the hidden assassin, the homophobic decisions he makes that kill Andrew and his cadets, him truly despising Adam, as opposed to simply being mad at him (boo hoo), etc.
My disconnect, as you know,was Caligula.
He'll get more nuanced screen time (setting up the Caligula chapter), plus he undergoes a miraculous change of behavior after the blast to his head. I want there to be enough clues that something's not right, right up to the reveal. I didn't care for him as a character until I came up with his hidden plot. Now I love him, which is the main reason he survived the battle. I want to do more with him. I could see putting him, Lady Kay, Leonardo, and Aussie in a book on the edge of settled space.
- As I mentioned in my response to Amy, Act II needs work. There isn't enough animosity between the MCs, fur flying, etc. I do have to stop a couple of times in the book to actually allow Joseph to define the Christian Heresy, beginning with the New Commandments, which slows the pace. His thoughts that lead him to unify the Essence, reincarnation, and evolution need trimming, but I think they're more interesting than the commandments.
This is the basic premise of the story. Why are you trimming that part?
No plans to get rid of them. Just expressing a preference for the stuff in Act III. I was thinking of trimming the chapter with the Essence. I crammed in too much stuff. It drags.
. His scheme mirrors that of the Imperium's founder, which is a nice connection. I also needed a chapter from his point of view in order to hide the surprise that Apollo is still alive.
Why hide it?
There are other ways to write it, but there's not much point to the Caligula chapter unless he gets an enemy. Who better than Apollo?
Stage 3:
After the mumbling stage he should start to see furtive mevements from the car of his eye. When he randonly turns to look, people are staring at him quizzically. He's not sure if they're doing it to unnerve him. He finds muddy footprints in his room when he wakes up. Security assures him no one was in there. He starts imagining Aphrodite is cheating on him. He can suddenly no longer write straight - he hires a scribe.Stage 4:
He starts to worry about poison (specifically of the exploding bowel nature). Hires a tate tester. Hires a second backup tester. Aphrodite grows distant. He thinks it's a conspiracy. He randomly has her arrested and searched for evidence (comes up empty-handed). Good time to throw in an exploding car bomb from the Heresy.Need more? Amy and Seabrass are also good at this.
Very nice stuff. Is it copyrighted?
S: Joseph needs a burning bush encounter. It's kind of a Judaic staple.
Awesome idea.
Norm d'Plume wrote:Janet, I added "mate" to the chapter, as you suggested. It's hilarious. I only use it once at the end when the AI is pissed off about the lack of respect. It says: Listen, Mate, I've asked you repeatedly to refer to me as Queen Aussie...
You're my hero! I think that spot is perfect!
I can't wait to do more with Aussie. I'll make the AI way over-the-top Australian. He'll hail from your neck of the woods, Woop Woop.
I'm back to toying with military ranks in the Imperium. Currently, I use modern military ranks (captain, colonel, general, etc.). However, I also use Roman names for legionarii and classiarii. And I use Roman military ranks as classes of ships. Confused yet? Anyone with a basic understanding of Roman history will probably wonder why the hell military titles aren't used for the Imperial military.
Ranks that would be used for the Imperial military would include prefect (general), praetor, tribune, centurion (captain), etc. I'd like to use the titles correctly, but I worry that readers will constantly scratch their heads when they see these ranks. There are, however plenty of films about the Roman era that do use these ranks, although probably not as many as I need.
Thoughts?
Okay, here's a gherkin.
Following is the list of Roman ranks I pulled together from the internet:
- Praefectus classis - admiral
- Legate - general
- Tribune - colonel
- Praefectus castrorum - major
- Centurion - captain
- Optio - lieutenant
Note that admiral and major are both prefects. Not exactly logical in our day, so that would be confusing to the reader. Even if that wasn't the case, the reader is going to forget what each Roman rank means unless I reinforce it over and over. A further complication is that some of the above ranks are Anglicized, while others are not. Add to this the fact that I use legionarii (ground troops) and classiarii (marines) in their Latin form, since I thought it was cool. Yet, I use Praetorian Guard in English. I also learned that candidati is the Latin word for the emperor's personal protection detail, which I called the Elite Guard in v2. I prefer the Latin whenever possible, provided the reader's head doesn't explode.
So, what do I do with this crap? Options are:
1. Leave everything as is, except add candidati. That means keeping modern ranks in English for the Imperials, and use just legionarii, classiarii, and candidati in Latin. Use the best of the Latin titles for classes of Imperial ships (Praetor, Consul, Tribune, and Centurion), which is how it's currently written.
2. Make it all Latin. Hopeless, as far as I can see. Too much for the reader to remember.
3. Use only the best known Roman ranks in place of their English equivalent. That would definitely include centurion in place of captain. It may also include tribune in lieu of colonel, and Praetor or Consul in place of governor. That leaves me with a mix of Roman and English: legionarii, classiarii, candidati, centurion, tribune (or colonel), admiral, general, major, and lieutenant.
Number 1 is easiest and relatively easy to understand. I could even rip out the ship classes, so there is no reference to Roman ranks in the book. Not sure if that's needed.
Number 3 is a bit of a mess, unless I limit Roman ranks to just centurion. Let's face it, the word centurion belongs in the book.
I'm leaning toward option 1.
For those who read the battle chapters and the new chapter one, did it strike you as confusing that I used Roman ranks (praetor, consul, tribune, centurion) as ship classes?
Thanks.
Well... take my thoughts with a grain of salt because I was confusing legionarii and classiarii (and still can't keep them straight).
Adding more divisions and ranks will only make me more lost. Thus, you must choose between "fresh" readers and readers with a good command of latin. I see no major issue with any option as long as you know your readiability going in, and provide sufficient explanations to handle it.
-K
Well... take my thoughts with a grain of salt because I was confusing legionarii and classiarii (and still can't keep them straight).
Adding more divisions and ranks will only make me more lost. Thus, you must choose between "fresh" readers and readers with a good command of latin. I see no major issue with any option as long as you know your readiability going in, and provide sufficient explanations to handle it.
-K
I'll take that as a preference for option 1. I'm surprised that classiarii (Imperial marines) and legionarii (Imperial ground forces) threw you. I assumed everyone was fine with it, since there were no complaints. I guess that means you're looking forward to the addition of candidati. :-)
Did the use of Roman ranks as the names of ship classes cause any problems?
And then, thinking back to my previous series... I have tons and tons of ranks.
Electron ranks go from electrokinetic->Lightning/Kinetic-Lightning->Elika->Namika->Nuclearkinetic (Each of these ranks can take "minor" or "arch" eg Minor-Elika or Arch-Namika).
Proton ranks Deputy->Sheriff->Lieutenant->General->Telika.
Telepaths rank themselves with a number representing how far they can reach + a division (projection / empathy / biopathy / placing / etc)
and there are many many more.
And I'm thinking about Book 6 and less than 10% of my ranks appear. The only ranks you see in book 6 are the ranks that matter to the characters. For example, [S t r a d i n] is technically a Minor Namika, but J calls him Namika. It's not relevant to her which kind he is because as far as she's concerned, he has all the properties of a normal Namika. She never refers to [K w a n] by her telepathic designation of "projection rank i". The term never appears in books 5 or 6. It exists in the story, but it's never so critical that J needs to mention it.
ok... back to yours. I ask of you... how important are the ranks? Which do you really *need*? Of course in a first draft use "lieutenant corporal". But in a second draft, maybe that guy is just a lieutenant or just a corporal. In a 3rd draft, maybe he's just "a leader baddie who wants to beat up the good guys".
Ideally the ranks are so unobtrusive that the story can remain dominant.
Here are some random questions to demonstrate what I mean:
a) In Seabrass's story, Tammon's rank/title is "Cityseer". Can you name the rank of Mawk?
b) Before the term "battle droid" was coined in 1990, how many classes of droid did Star Wars have?
c) Aside from "Prime" name at least 3 ranks of autobot.
(okay (c) is me cheating)
d) Aside from "dinobot" and "triple changer" name 3 classes of autobot.
PS: Classiarii and legionarii didn't throw me. I mentally re-assign them as "military guy carrying gun". Therefore no complaint. A 3rd, 4th, and 5th group merely joins this existing classification. Again, no complaint. UNLESS all five are in the same paragraph.
For those who read the battle chapters and the new chapter one, did it strike you as confusing that I used Roman ranks (praetor, consul, tribune, centurion) as ship classes?
Thanks.
No, I could keep up with who's shooting who and what not. That said, I won't be able to say which is which, so a subtle reminder when you use them again will probably be worth your while.
Not sure I'm helping, but I am trying to help!!!
I use four classes of ships in chapter one, set in 3994, and another four in the final battle set in 4017. Those eight classes are of one of four basic warship "types", namely command ships, dreadnoughts, destroyers, and battle cruisers. For example, I have a Praetor-class dreadnought named IRS Hercules. Still with me? The destroyers are a recent addition, used by the Realm, while the Imperium has a comparable type, the battle cruiser. To hell with Mickey Mouse. They didn't invent destroyers, although I do yield 'star destroyer' and 'super star destroyer' to them.
Ideally the ranks are so unobtrusive that the story can remain dominant.
Here are some random questions to demonstrate what I mean:
a) In Seabrass's story, Tammon's rank/title is "Cityseer". Can you name the rank of Mawk?
b) Before the term "battle droid" was coined in 1990, how many classes of droid did Star Wars have?
c) Aside from "Prime" name at least 3 ranks of autobot.
(okay (c) is me cheating)
d) Aside from "dinobot" and "triple changer" name 3 classes of autobot.PS: Classiarii and legionarii didn't throw me. I mentally re-assign them as "military guy carrying gun". Therefore no complaint. A 3rd, 4th, and 5th group merely joins this existing classification. Again, no complaint. UNLESS all five are in the same paragraph.
a) I can't remember Mawk's rank. You forget (pun intended) who you're asking. I don't even remember J e n n a's last name before she married blue balls.
b) Star Wars had a lot of types/classes. Remember the Jawa sandcrawler loaded with droids? Plus a few in Mos Eisley, and the mind probe droid in Leia's cell.
c) The whole autobots series is just a blur of crap. Movie pitch: "We'll fill the screen with tons of metal smashing metal until no one can tell what the hell is going on!" Studio exec: "I love it. Will $100M be enough? Screw it. Here's $200M."
If I could have clearly defined all of the Roman ranks to match modern equivalents, and if most of those ranks were reasonably well known, I would have gone ahead with it. At various points in the story, I need a general, admiral, colonel, major, captain, and lieutenant, so they need ranks. I'm usually pretty good at hitting readers over the head with explanations when needed. I intensely dislike books that throw terms at you starting from page one without explanations until pages 9, 17, 98, and 123.
I'm working on the rewrite of chapter 2 (introduction of the MCs). I'm struggling to create a real-time galactic simulator to introduce key historic moments in the galaxy (Collapse of Civilization, Rise of the Imperium, etc.) in about 5 pages.
New caps question. As those who follow my neverending caps saga know, I lowercase informal references to titles (e.g., the emperor), but capitalize formal uses (e.g., the Emperor of the Imperium Romanum). That generally works.
Now for the latest. Apollo's father refers to Caligula as Bastardus Minisculus. Should Bastardus Minisculus be capitalized? Why? It's pretty much a "title". If no caps, what would it be in direct address: The emperor said, "Get over hear, bastardus miniscules."?
Thanks
Dirk
Fantasy/Magic & Sci-Fi → The Galaxy Tales - Dirk B.