51 (edited by njc 2015-08-28 11:51:20)

Re: emotional scenes

It also depends on your skill in appreciating the art.  Someone might say "Oh, not another piece of jazz/classical/rock," being unable to realize that the piece in question is extraordinary because he's blind within the genre.

Incidentally, 'great' things are often built of simple pieces.  I'm no musician, but I'm pretty sure that the striking Angel Chorus in =Jesus Christ, Superstar= is built on the reversal or a very standard concluding chord progression.  All of =Les Mis= is built on using the fourth instead of the fifth, and the emotional character of the interval in context becomes an allegory of sorts for the redemptive journey of Jean Valjean.

Re: emotional scenes

If we take as a given there are only seven basic plots (yes, I know that is a subjective number and some say there is really only one and others will expand the number slightly) that still doesn't account for the myriad variations in those basic plots. And then within the plots you have another countless number of character variations, and then another universe full of descriptions. So, you take all that into consideration and no one really has to worry about repeating a story that's already been done; as a matter of fact I challenge you to repeat any story ever written without copying it directly. You couldn't if you set out to do it deliberately, let alone by chance or coincidence. In short, you can write till the universe ends in a last gasp of radiation and not duplicate what's already supposedly been done a bazillion times. Of course all bets are off if you write romance novels; they're all the same, lol. Take care. Vern

Re: emotional scenes

vern wrote:

Of course all bets are off if you write romance novels; they're all the same, lol.

No, vern, formula written romances are all the same. So are formula written mysteries. A + B =C. BORING. So, maybe it's sort of been done. Put your own spin on it.

Re: emotional scenes

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:
vern wrote:

Of course all bets are off if you write romance novels; they're all the same, lol.

No, vern, formula written romances are all the same. So are formula written mysteries. A + B =C. BORING. So, maybe it's sort of been done. Put your own spin on it.

I generally don't like romance novels, but I read one that was sort of like a compilation of short stories and I quite liked it. Each section was about one of the sisters and when you put it together, it was pretty neat. Unfortunately for this discussion, it did not make me cry, but I was pretty saddened during a few scenes. It's fairly difficult for any book to make me cry, though it has happened a few times. (Where The Red Fern Grows... Every. Damn. Time.)

-Elisheva

Re: emotional scenes

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:
vern wrote:

Of course all bets are off if you write romance novels; they're all the same, lol.

No, vern, formula written romances are all the same. So are formula written mysteries. A + B =C. BORING. So, maybe it's sort of been done. Put your own spin on it.

Now, I'm gonna assume you agree with the rest of what I wrote in that post since you only took a stand on the last sentence; so, if that assumption is correct, then surely you must have smiled at least a little with the humor of that last sentence which is obviously diametrically opposed to what came before. Well, I thought it was kinda, sorta, maybe just a teensy bit funny anyway. Come on, work with me here. Take care. Vern

Re: emotional scenes

Betty White wrote:

The audience today has heard every joke. They know every plot. They know where you're going before you even start. That's a tough audience to surprise, and a tough audience to write for. It's much more competitive now, because the audience is so much more - I want to say sophisticated.

You weren't surprised at the end of Atonement?

57 (edited by Janet Taylor-Perry 2015-08-29 03:19:40)

Re: emotional scenes

vern wrote:
Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:
vern wrote:

Of course all bets are off if you write romance novels; they're all the same, lol.

No, vern, formula written romances are all the same. So are formula written mysteries. A + B =C. BORING. So, maybe it's sort of been done. Put your own spin on it.

Now, I'm gonna assume you agree with the rest of what I wrote in that post since you only took a stand on the last sentence; so, if that assumption is correct, then surely you must have smiled at least a little with the humor of that last sentence which is obviously diametrically opposed to what came before. Well, I thought it was kinda, sorta, maybe just a teensy bit funny anyway. Come on, work with me here. Take care. Vern

Actually, I did chuckle. And yes, I agree. I was suggesting getting outside the box, especially in those two genres which often get stuck in a rut. Point in case: 50 Shades. Book one was awful. Book two a bit better written, so I had hoped the author learned something. Alas, Book three was so predictable that I could have written it for her (And probably better) Of course, she is now the multimillionaire, so who am I to judge taste or lack thereof?

Re: emotional scenes

Dill, I never disagreed with my husband, I found a way to reconcile it is all. I didn't care if my work was compared to others. Most of the time the comparison would be a good thing. In the literary world, comparisons, particularly of those you admire, are a much sought after thing. Complimentary comparisons are the gold standard for authors tout to the hilt in terms of marketing.

I've never set out to write like authors I admire, or write music like artists I covet, but I do endeavor to evoke a similar feeling. It's that wonderful sense of soul satisfaction when something you've read, or listened to strikes a chord within you. If I can feel that way about one of my own finished works, it's a success, regardless of what others have to say. Selfish? Probably, but it's my most powerful motivator. I'll work tirelessly to come away feeling something genuine--and if I don't, it gets scrapped or reworked until I do.

All that said, [ahem vern], I'm also not opposed to dipping my nib in the formula ring. I've written several romantic leaning novels which are not only highly formulaic, they're quite limiting in terms of attaining selfish satisfaction. Yet, I'm no less proud to have completed them. Mainly because I found writing in a strict formula framework to be as challenging to pull off well as pantsing can be. In some ways I'm even more proud of those novels because not only did I find the challenge fun, I came away feeling humbled by how difficult disciplined writing can be.

59 (edited by vern 2015-08-29 23:38:41)

Re: emotional scenes

Linda Lee wrote:

All that said, [ahem vern], I'm also not opposed to dipping my nib in the formula ring. I've written several romantic leaning novels which are not only highly formulaic, they're quite limiting in terms of attaining selfish satisfaction. Yet, I'm no less proud to have completed them. Mainly because I found writing in a strict formula framework to be as challenging to pull off well as pantsing can be. In some ways I'm even more proud of those novels because not only did I find the challenge fun, I came away feeling humbled by how difficult disciplined writing can be.

Hi, LL, if I could write to the formulae and make a few million, I would be wearing my fingers to a nub on the keys, lol. My wife reads romance novels all the time. If she's not working, she can go through two or three in day. But here's the kicker; on more than one occasion, she's gotten almost to the end of a book and realized she'd already read it. So, I naturally have to pick on them.

BTW, since we're in the superhero contest, do you realize the number of characters in the Superman's superhero world whose initials are LL as your pen name. Did you choose Linda Lee because it was Supergirl's secret identity? Here are a few more LLs in that alliterative world:

◾ Linda Lee, Supergirl's secret identity.
◾ Linda Lang, another secret identity used by Supergirl.
◾ Lana Lang, Superman's first girlfriend.
◾ Laura Lang, Lana Lang's mother.
◾ Lewis Lang, Lana Lang's father.
◾ Lois Lane, Superman's main love interest.
◾ Lucy Lane, Lois' sister.
◾ Alexander "Lex" Luthor, Superman's frequent foe.
◾ Lena Luthor, Lex Luthor's sister.
◾ Lena Luthor II, Lex Luthor's daughter.
◾ Lori Luthor, Lex's niece.
◾ Lionel Luthor, Lex's father on Smallville.
◾ Lillian Luthor, Lex's Mother on Smallville.
◾ Lachlan Luthor, Lex's grandfather on Smallville.
◾ Lutessa Lena Luthor, Lex's half-sister in Smallville.
◾ Lenny Luthor, Lex's nephew in Superman IV.
◾ Lucas Luthor, Lex's half-brother on Smallville.
◾ Lori Lemaris, Superman's college sweetheart.
◾ Lenora Lemaris, Lori's sister.
◾ Lyla Lerrol, Superman's love affair on Krypton.
◾ Letitia Lerner, Superman's babysitter.
◾ Lara Lor-Van, Superman's biological mother.
◾ Luma Lynai, one of several characters to have used the name Superwoman.
◾ Linda Lake, a reporter on Smallville.
◾ Lesla Lar, a Silver Age foe of Supergirl.
◾ Liri Lee, member of the Linear Men (uses the pseudonym Liesel Largo).
◾ Lyrica Lloyd, from Superman #196 (May 1967)
◾ Lola-La, a member of a Neandertholic people on a remote undiscovered island (with dinosaurs) whom an amnesiac Superman nearly married.
◾ Lupé Leocadio, a Metropolis police officer.
◾ Leslie Luckabee, posed as Lex Luthor's son in Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman.
◾ Lisa Lasalle, Superman's love interest in Superman: Earth One Volume 2

Take care. Vern

PS: Edited to delete extraneous material which somehow didn't disappear properly the first time.

Re: emotional scenes

KHippolite wrote:

For example, we've had vampires in literature for hundreds of years, but as recently as fifty years ago modern zombies didn't exist (I refer to the Romero version. I realize that purists will claim the Frankenstein monster was the first zombie, but he was hardly the product of a contagious disease, and far from a mindless eater of brains).

Romero's invention gives us countless zombie movies of the Resident Evil / Walking Dead / you-name-it type

Extending from that, you can have zombies take over the world as politicians... and zombies vs vampires and zombies in love. Eventually you'll get zombie robots and zombie celestial bodies... All these spin-off concepts must be explored before we'll get someone to come along and make something new. After that the process will repeat.


Appropriating imaginary-conceptual beings like Bram Stoker's Dracula into romantic (Twilight Saga) or comedic Grampa (The Munsters) characters are not spin-off concepts but rather rip-offs for entertainment.  Only Nosferatu and Bram Stoker's Dracula (in part) are attributable to any originality (by Bram Stoker), whereas Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles  may be what you are talking where she borrows the concept of vampires to frame original stories a little something about vampires -- but not 'exploring the concept of vampires' as you claim.

Betty White wrote:

The audience today has heard every joke. They know every plot. They know where you're going before you even start. That's a tough audience to surprise, and a tough audience to write for. It's much more competitive now, because the audience is so much more - I want to say sophisticated.

The problem with this sort of comment is that it misjudges a typical audience as eager for something new, and that is untrue, but they would rather have rip-offs crafted originally, perhaps sophisticated, rather than creative original concepts. Few want to think about something heretofore unknown to them. I think the timeline for 'accepting audiences' for new ideas is in reverse as  current civilization advances, not as implied by the above comment, and that may be a hypothesis about why civilizations ossify and collapse.

61 (edited by Linda Lee 2015-08-30 20:34:38)

Re: emotional scenes

vern wrote:
Linda Lee wrote:

All that said, [ahem vern], I'm also not opposed to dipping my nib in the formula ring. I've written several romantic leaning novels which are not only highly formulaic, they're quite limiting in terms of attaining selfish satisfaction. Yet, I'm no less proud to have completed them. Mainly because I found writing in a strict formula framework to be as challenging to pull off well as pantsing can be. In some ways I'm even more proud of those novels because not only did I find the challenge fun, I came away feeling humbled by how difficult disciplined writing can be.

Hi, LL, if I could write to the formulae and make a few million, I would be wearing my fingers to a nub on the keys, lol. My wife reads romance novels all the time. If she's not working, she can go through two or three in day. But here's the kicker; on more than one occasion, she's gotten almost to the end of a book and realized she'd already read it. So, I naturally have to pick on them.

BTW, since we're in the superhero contest, do you realize the number of characters in the Superman's superhero world whose initials are LL as your pen name. Did you choose Linda Lee because it was Supergirl's secret identity? Here are a few more LLs in that alliterative world:

Wow...very cool list smile  And your wife is in very good company--it's the highest selling genre on the planet.

I chose LL because it was my sister's name and she never got to finish my first novel. But now that I know it's also Supergirl's secret identity, I love it even more!

62 (edited by Dill Carver 2015-08-31 11:31:26)

Re: emotional scenes

Dill Carver wrote:

I still feel fraudulent because in essence, everything has been done before

KHippolite wrote:

I disagree. Yes, the basic archetypes have all (mostly) been done, but there are limitless possibilities out there....

Yes, yes.... I totally agree with your disagreement... and this is where I know I'm never going to be a writer, because I always seem to fail to convey what I mean.

Irrespective of however the situation really is or whatever is the reality or actual fact of the matter; I (me personally) feel like a fraud and that is what blocks my confidence within my own writing.

It is like someone with acrophobia, a height or risk of falling may be minimal, intangible or imperceptible to the average person but the vertigo, the sensations of spinning and dizziness, the fear that the sufferer feels are real and unstoppable even though the situation is imperceptible and the ailment inconceivable to the vast majority of the non-suffering population.

I’m not saying that ‘this is the way it actually is;’ I’m saying ‘I know it is irrational, but this is the way it is for me’.

Re: emotional scenes

vern wrote:

◾ Linda Lee, Supergirl's secret identity.

smile