Re: emotional scenes

See, I could die of a broken heart but without turning a tear.

And yet I live in a world where it is assumed that if you don't cry you don’t care.

I recently attended the funeral of someone I loved dearly. A cousin taken by cancer far too young and a sweeter soul than her I’ve never met --truly.
It was tragic and my insides were in turmoil. I’m grieving still. I don’t suppose I will ever stop in one way or another.

I watched people crying during and after the service. Some of those close relations, her parents and siblings were in tatters. Some people on the periphery were crying too, I hated that. I know it is wrong and unjust of me but I thought their tears fraudulent. They never really knew her and wouldn’t feel the loss of her past the next Tuesday, let alone forever.  I feel that they cried because others cried and they no doubt cry at the drop of a hat because they are emotionally shallow, without dignity and self-indulgent thinking that crying it is the thing to do whilst staunch and respectful is right and proper in my book.

They also seemed to think that because I didn’t cry that I didn’t care whilst in truth they had a one off sad day but the fabric of my life, my family’s lives was irreparably torn for enternity.

I work with a young lady who cries crocodile tears on tap to cover situations where she has erred. I work with a lovely middle-aged woman who cries at nothing, Irrational floods of emotion over nothing and all due to the menopause, they say. 

I’m not a crier.

I’m not going to cry over something fictional that I’ve penned and I can’t relate to those who do.

I apologise for the offence this has caused.

Quote Post 26

Re: emotional scenes

vern wrote:

I'm going to have to agree with Dill since the original question was merely asking for an opinion and as we all should know, we all have one, and they don't always, actually seldom agree. As a matter of fact, my original response to this thread is more or less a case in point for Dill's position. As he stated, "I should think it differs dependant upon the circumstance. If it were memoir or non-fiction then I'd think it could be natural. If it is over a fictional scene they'd just invented then I'd say that the writer is emotionally dysfunctional." My original response stated that I had indeed shed a few tears on several occasions over my novel which happens to be a somewhat fictionalized memoir (aren't they all). But I don't recall having shed any tears over any other writing - I may well have, but if so it hasn't stuck with me as my own writing induced tears have.

So, I have to question how anyone could attack  (I will use that for lack of a better word at the moment) Dill's response to the question. You might disagree with his opinion as well as mine or anyone else's, but you can't logically argue with it or refute it; it is only an opinion, no more or less valid than yours or mine. The whole review process on this site is based upon others' opinions. You choose which to go with and ignore those you don't agree with, but you don't argue with them unless you are "emotionally dysfunctional" as Dill stated. That's my opinion. You can take it or leave it, but you can't argue against it in any meaningful manner. Take care. Vern

Rational, prudent, judicious, diplomatic, pragmatic, open-minded, considerate and progressive. Now that's the way to forum!

Vern, you have me welling up here  smile

Quote Post 27

28 Reply by Linda Lee (edited by Linda Lee 2015-08-26 00:50:33)

Re: emotional scenes

Dill's story got me thinking....Three weeks ago I began writing an entry for the superhero contest and grabbed something from my memory banks to depict the action between 2 kids in a warehouse. I'm in the middle of typing away about one of them leaping off a platform and I inexplicably burst into tears. And I don't mean I welled up, I exploded into a deep cry. Not only did it take me by total surprise at first, but it's very uncharacteristic for me.

I lost my brother about 8 months ago. He was still fairly young and it was unexpected. I didn't do a lot of crying. Mostly, I think because I was numb, and very distracted by having to tackle all the immediate concerns of my mother who'd been living with him. A few family members commented on my lack of visible mourning. I shrugged it off. I didn't need nor want to explain it to anyone even if I could.  Then during that writing session a few weeks ago, I came to the realization that the memory I was tapping into to depict those 2 kids in the warehouse was one of my brother and me.

That was the first thing I thought of when Janet first posed the question. I wasn't crying over what was written per say, I cried over a very real mental connection my brain made out of it. This time it happened to be tears, but I've had visceral reactions to writing that has challenged me, or angered me, or made me overly envious too. Sometimes it's fiction, other times not--the mental connection doesn't care, it just happens.

Quote Post 28

Re: emotional scenes

Linda Lee wrote:

Dill's story got me thinking....Three weeks ago I began writing an entry for the superhero contest and grabbed something from my memory banks to depict the action between 2 kids in a warehouse. I'm in the middle of typing away about one of them leaping off a platform and I inexplicably burst into tears. And I don't mean I welled up, I exploded into a deep cry. Not only did it take me by total surprise at first, but it's very uncharacteristic for me.

I lost my brother about 8 months ago. He was still fairly young and it was unexpected. I didn't do a lot of crying. Mostly, I think because I was numb, and very distracted by having to tackle all the immediate concerns of my mother who'd been living with him. A few family members commented on my lack of visible mourning. I shrugged it off. I didn't need nor want to explain it to anyone even if I could.  Then during that writing session a few weeks ago, I came to the realization that the memory I was tapping into to depict those 2 kids in the warehouse was one of my brother and me.

That was the first thing I thought of when Janet first posed the question. I wasn't crying over what was written per say, I cried over a very real mental connection my brain made out of it. This time it happened to be tears, but I've had visceral reactions to writing that has challenged me, or angered me, or made me overly envious too. Sometimes it's fiction, other times not--the mental connection doesn't care, it just happens.

A touching story Linda and I am sorry for your loss. It kind of reminds me of a theory someone put forward on the old tNBW site; in that there is no such thing as pure fiction as we re-wrap our own real feelings and experiences into another guise.

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Re: emotional scenes

Dill Carver wrote:
Linda Lee wrote:

Dill's story got me thinking....Three weeks ago I began writing an entry for the superhero contest and grabbed something from my memory banks to depict the action between 2 kids in a warehouse. I'm in the middle of typing away about one of them leaping off a platform and I inexplicably burst into tears. And I don't mean I welled up, I exploded into a deep cry. Not only did it take me by total surprise at first, but it's very uncharacteristic for me.

I lost my brother about 8 months ago. He was still fairly young and it was unexpected. I didn't do a lot of crying. Mostly, I think because I was numb, and very distracted by having to tackle all the immediate concerns of my mother who'd been living with him. A few family members commented on my lack of visible mourning. I shrugged it off. I didn't need nor want to explain it to anyone even if I could.  Then during that writing session a few weeks ago, I came to the realization that the memory I was tapping into to depict those 2 kids in the warehouse was one of my brother and me.

That was the first thing I thought of when Janet first posed the question. I wasn't crying over what was written per say, I cried over a very real mental connection my brain made out of it. This time it happened to be tears, but I've had visceral reactions to writing that has challenged me, or angered me, or made me overly envious too. Sometimes it's fiction, other times not--the mental connection doesn't care, it just happens.

A touching story Linda and I am sorry for your loss. It kind of reminds me of a theory someone put forward on the old tNBW site; in that there is no such thing as pure fiction as we re-wrap our own real feelings and experiences into another guise.

Thank you, Dill, for finally seeing the point.

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Re: emotional scenes

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

Thank you, Dill, for finally seeing the point.

Ahh, as eyes and minds open, if you continue to converse you may ultimately see that he saw the point from the beginning; you just might have been blind to that fact initially. Take care. Vern

Quote Post 31

Re: emotional scenes

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:
Dill Carver wrote:

A touching story Linda and I am sorry for your loss. It kind of reminds me of a theory someone put forward on the old tNBW site; in that there is no such thing as pure fiction as we re-wrap our own real feelings and experiences into another guise.

Thank you, Dill, for finally seeing the point.

Was your point somehow related to the allegation there is no such thing as pure fiction? That not stuffing real feelings and experiences into another guise is pure fiction that does not exist?  Perhaps you or Mr. Carver like to explain that.

Quote Post 32

33 Reply by Dill Carver (edited by Dill Carver 2015-08-27 12:39:17)

Re: emotional scenes

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

Was your point somehow related to the allegation there is no such thing as pure fiction? That not stuffing real feelings and experiences into another guise is pure fiction that does not exist?  Perhaps you or Mr. Carver like to explain that.

My original point was that I could not understand an author who was motivated to cry by the act of proof reading a scene they'd written.

I did clarify that I was talking about creative fiction rather than non-fiction (memoir, or biographical pieces).

I considered it self-indulgent, sybaritic and precious of them and wondered how an author so emotionally embroiled within their product could rationally interpret harsh yet objective critique upon such a piece in a professional manner? 

My opinions upon the existence (or not) of 'pure' fiction is another kettle. A fascinating subject that I'd readily discuss if other feel the subject merits it?

However, I was reminded that the fictitious scene could cause the author to reminisce or associate with personal tragedy so I conceded the fact that reading one’s own fiction could therefore be an emotional experience that in turn could lead to crying

The original question posed for discussion and that I was addressing, was along the lines of 'what does it mean if you cry when reading your writing?' I surmised at the time that it was either superficial, over dramatic attention seeking or if genuine grief, an emotionally dysfunctional act that could be a symptom of mental illness depression, delusion (etc.).

My opinions upon the existence (or not) of 'pure' fiction is another kettle. A fascinating subject that I'd readily discuss if others feel the subject merits it?

Quote Post 33

34 Reply by njc

Re: emotional scenes

Are you saying that you cannot imagine-create a scene that will move you to tears, or that reading such a scene after you've written it will not still move you to tears?

Quote Post 34

Re: emotional scenes

njc wrote:

Are you saying that you cannot imagine-create a scene that will move you to tears, or that reading such a scene after you've written it will not still move you to tears?

Absolutley. Are you saying that you can?

Quote Post 35

36 Reply by njc

Re: emotional scenes

I don't know if I can.  If I can't do it in 2015, I might yet be able to do it in 2018.  And if I never can do it, there may well be authors who can.

To say that you can't do it does not mean it can't be done, nor does it reduce the value of the achievement for those who can.  As I recall, a fellow named Aesop had something to say about the question.

Quote Post 36

Re: emotional scenes

I've never questioned whether people can cry or not (well, apart from my retort to you). The original question was, 'what does it mean when they do?'   Which (to me) poses the question, 'why would they cry?' Which was answered conclusively (in my opinion) by Linda Lee yesterday at which time I conceded the point she made.

Quote Post 37

Re: emotional scenes

The pure fiction argument has been going on in my house for decades. My husband has dragged his feet for 30 years about getting involved in the songwriting process because he believes "there are no true original songs because all the chords have been played a million times over". My simple side of the argument was always; so what?

There are an infinite combination of chords and progressions as there are dimensions to feelings, moods, and passions. And while we may in fact dutifully give a nod to those who have inspired us, originality is rooted in the self--and there isn't another person, ever, in the entire universe, who is exactly like you.

Quote Post 38

Re: emotional scenes

Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

Was your point somehow related to the allegation there is no such thing as pure fiction? That not stuffing real feelings and experiences into another guise is pure fiction that does not exist?  Perhaps you or Mr. Carver like to explain that.

The original question posed for discussion and that I was addressing, was along the lines of 'what does it mean if you cry when reading your writing?' I surmised at the time that it was either superficial, over dramatic attention seeking or if genuine grief, an emotionally dysfunctional act that could be a symptom of mental illness depression, delusion (etc.).

My opinions upon the existence (or not) of 'pure' fiction is another kettle. A fascinating subject that I'd readily discuss if others feel the subject merits it?

Okay, while I disagree with the first premise, and I think you came around enough to explain the context of your original premise as not applying, I think that "not applying" is the issue of what sort of crap one stuffs into his fiction. That many authors and their readers want real emotion (and not that list of phony melodrama above in your original premise) the author would come up with that -- Janet's point, I suppose. What I have a problem with is that there is no literary necessity to include anything real at all:  'pure fiction' is possible and indeed would be stripped of those real emotions, real tragedies, real(istic) characters, etc. --or-- 'pure fiction that cannot exist' is an anti-concept against writing which is not naturalistic.

Quote Post 39

Re: emotional scenes

Linda Lee wrote:

The pure fiction argument has been going on in my house for decades. My husband has dragged his feet for 30 years about getting involved in the songwriting process because he believes "there are no true original songs because all the chords have been played a million times over". My simple side of the argument was always; so what?

There are an infinite combination of chords and progressions as there are dimensions to feelings, moods, and passions. And while we may in fact dutifully give a nod to those who have inspired us, originality is rooted in the self--and there isn't another person, ever, in the entire universe, who is exactly like you.

I don't make the connection you are making between 'pure fiction' and originality. Also, the difference between music making and writing is so much greater than the difference between prose and poetry/lyrics as to be apples and oranges,  but I can see that conceptually 'pure fiction' in abstractive process is close to music making. Plain writing is barely abstract at all.

Quote Post 40

Re: emotional scenes

Charles_F_Bell wrote:
Linda Lee wrote:

The pure fiction argument has been going on in my house for decades. My husband has dragged his feet for 30 years about getting involved in the songwriting process because he believes "there are no true original songs because all the chords have been played a million times over". My simple side of the argument was always; so what?

There are an infinite combination of chords and progressions as there are dimensions to feelings, moods, and passions. And while we may in fact dutifully give a nod to those who have inspired us, originality is rooted in the self--and there isn't another person, ever, in the entire universe, who is exactly like you.

I don't make the connection you are making between 'pure fiction' and originality. Also, the difference between music making and writing is so much greater than the difference between prose and poetry/lyrics as to be apples and oranges,  but I can see that conceptually 'pure fiction' in abstractive process is close to music making. Plain writing is barely abstract at all.

Writing is writing. We're talking about the creation of original works--be they song, poetry, or novel.

Quote Post 41

42 Reply by njc

Re: emotional scenes

Some writing is harder than other kinds.

Quote Post 42

Re: emotional scenes

Linda Lee wrote:

Writing is writing. We're talking about the creation of original works--be they song, poetry, or novel.

Umm... how is a novel created without writing, and how is a song created without music?  What I said was that writing (novels) is not music; and the creation of both is apples and oranges.  And indeed. you were talking about original works, but I thought everyone else was talking about 'pure fiction.'

Quote Post 43

44 Reply by Linda Lee (edited by Linda Lee 2015-08-28 01:15:12)

Re: emotional scenes

It's a parallel analogy.  Here, I'll change for you...


My husband has dragged his feet for 30 years about getting involved in writing as a creative process. He believes "there are no true original works because all they've all been done before." My simple side of the argument was always; so what?

I believe....
There are an infinite combination of words & scenarios as there are dimensions to feelings, moods, and passions. And while we may in fact dutifully give a nod to those who have inspired us, originality is rooted in the self--and there isn't another person, ever, in the entire universe, who is exactly like you (I.E. they will never create a work exactly like yours unless plagiarizing).

Better?

Quote Post 44

Re: emotional scenes

njc wrote:

Some writing is harder than other kinds.

Not sure what you mean by this, and where it sits in the conversation.

Quote Post 45

Re: emotional scenes

Depending on which college professor you ask, there are only a very small number of archetypes in fiction. For Star Wars, George Lucas did research for about a year, getting ideas from fairy tales, war movies, a Japanese Samurai film called the Hidden Fortress, and the Flash Gordon serials. He added the Force (in lieu of an almighty God) and lightsabers, and came out with magic. Until Episode I, that is. I like to pretend that doesn't exist. Nevertheless, Lucasfilm was bought by Disney for a mere $3B (including all rights to Star Wars and Indiana Jones), yet Snapchat (which is only four years old) is worth almost $20B. Doesn't anyone remember AOL Time Warner?

Quote Post 46

Re: emotional scenes

Norm d'Plume wrote:

Depending on which college professor you ask, there are only a very small number of archetypes in fiction. For Star Wars, George Lucas did research for about a year, getting ideas from fairy tales, war movies, a Japanese Samurai film called the Hidden Fortress, and the Flash Gordon serials. He added the Force (in lieu of an almighty God) and lightsabers, and came out with magic. Until Episode I, that is. I like to pretend that doesn't exist. Nevertheless, Lucasfilm was bought by Disney for a mere $3B (including all rights to Star Wars and Indiana Jones), yet Snapchat (which is only four years old) is worth almost $20B. Doesn't anyone remember AOL Time Warner?

Good artists barrow, great artists steal.
smile

Quote Post 47

Re: emotional scenes

njc wrote:

Some writing is harder than other kinds.

I believe that you may have just proved that.

Quote Post 48

49 Reply by Dill Carver (edited by Dill Carver 2015-08-28 10:33:57)

Re: emotional scenes

Linda Lee wrote:

My husband has dragged his feet for 30 years about getting involved in writing as a creative process. He believes "there are no true original works because all they've all been done before." .......

I fully understand his concerns (I understood the first time you stated this and can see the direct link between writing music, lyrics, fiction and poems -- they all follow the same creative process in terms of invention and composition).

I've been put off creating fictional stories for the same reasons your husband has been put off writing music. I read an awful lot and when I write, even though I've put a lot of conscious effort into making it original, I still feel fraudulent because in essence, everything has been done before. There are only a certain amount of words and phrases and there is not a story that is not like another 10 or 2,000 in one way or another.

The trick is (of course) not to worry about it. But even knowing that, some of us are ruled by a self-conscious pedantic attitude (even if it is a subconscious influence).

Yesterday I started to write an entry for the Superhero competition. It is way out of my natural genre scope and I thought that unfamiliar ground would provide an exercise in making my writing fresh (i.e. if I don’t read the genre then I'd be less likely to fall into the ‘common genre cliché mode’ that can occur when authors write a type or class of story). What I forget is that genre fan readers actually expect the platitude of the common formula – often which is the hook or attraction for them).
   
Anyway, I read back what I’d written and although I thought it an original plot and prose, as I wrote, I was mortified to notice similarities to other works (written and film) that must have surreptitiously influenced my train of thought as I created the story. When read objectively, my work seemed to me like a borrowed and rehashed ‘same-old’ churned out story.

I can see where you husband is coming from.

Quote Post 49

50 Reply by Charles_F_Bell (edited by Charles_F_Bell 2015-08-28 11:01:47)

Re: emotional scenes

Linda Lee wrote:

It's a parallel analogy.  Here, I'll change for you...


My husband has dragged his feet for 30 years about getting involved in writing as a creative process. He believes "there are no true original works because all they've all been done before." My simple side of the argument was always; so what?

I believe....
There are an infinite combination of words & scenarios as there are dimensions to feelings, moods, and passions. And while we may in fact dutifully give a nod to those who have inspired us, originality is rooted in the self--and there isn't another person, ever, in the entire universe, who is exactly like you (I.E. they will never create a work exactly like yours unless plagiarizing).

Better?

Sure, as you dropped 'pure fiction' because you don't want to talk about it like everyone else here who stuck his or her toe in the water on that. You also clarified that hubby had been thinking about 'writing' in general whereas I thought you had him talking about song writing/music.  Okay.

For the most part, I agree with your husband, and I think it is a waste of time venturing into the creative process -- and this applies to commercial novels and commercial (pop/Rock) music -- because he and I may have higher standards on the sort of things we wish to spend our time. Although I am a believer in radical individualism, I also know there is such a thing as mass hysteria in extremis of tastes, and fads in tastes, style, and even content on which the free market is built, so that individuals merely churn out over and over again this same crappy 'literature' and 'music' more or less within each generation when there may appear a  paradigm shift in tastes-- like a factory worker who has his hand in the making of Oreo cookies.  There is something unsatisfying in that, unless money as the measure of success is a goal.

Therefore, the standards are: to be the creative genius of the Oreo cookie or to be the factory drudge making them.

Quote Post 50