176

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

Bird uses many examples from both books and movies, some of what works well, some of what flops.  His resume is drawn from his successful work.

And since his emphasis is on Story, it seems reasonable to conclude that he is addressing principally the fiction writer.

Amazon lets you preview parts of the book.  Why not do that?

Believe me, I did not post a reply to your OP without checking it out, and in spite of his protestations to the contrary he has screenwriter fingerprints all over it.  It is even in the advice that every author should care about his audience and particularly the advice #4 on audiences don't care about stories; they care about characters, and I believe that is false for most genre of novels but is partially true for movies because the medium is first,visuals and second, plot; it is the actor's job to look good and be good. A novelist has to expend a thousand words to imitate the 30 second screen shot.  And, of course,  his only examples are and can be only from from movies. His extended movie biz anecdote on John Carter is irrelevant to a novel writer. I don't even agree that the movie flopped because of some unlikable John Carter who I thought was a very likable hero; it is the story that meandered and fizzled from action scene to action scene there were a bit silly. The history of Mars part, yes, movie goers don't not like that, but a genuine reader would -- until recently when authors are writing novels as if they were movies not realizing that is the whole point of a novel versus a movie is engaged versus passive entertainment.

177

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

What?  And give away the ending?  smile

Implied by "until the very last word" is until the very last word has been read. I am quite proud of the fact the plot/characterization/theme cannot be determined in the first three chapters and prologue even if they are, in fact, all there, and the fact that even if a reader were to skip over and read the last chapter no such determination can be made. The book is an organic whole incomprehensible without having read it completely in order from beginning to end.

178

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

In my Amazon review, I opine that the MFA should not be listed among Bird's qualifications because he states, in the firmest terms, that he had to unlearn the biggest lessons the MFA program taught him, and that the whole MFA program was a scam.  'scam' is his word.

The greatest preachers claimed to have been rescued from sin, though that certainly does not stop the collection plate being passed around.

njc wrote:

What was that lesson?  Write from your heart, gut, or whatever organ you find rewarding.  Bird's lesson from the real world?  You have to write for your audience, in whatever medium.  Implied is that the greatest reward is winning the audience to your story.

We all judge books by their covers, in various ways.  I assert that the suspicions that you have formed, based on the cover, do not represent the book's content.  Only you can test that assertion to your own satisfaction.

No, my suspicions are based on having read several how-to books regarding writing for commercial publication, and all of them were scams. How I might say they were scams is based on treatment of writing as if there were little difference between non-fiction, genre-fiction, non-genre-fiction, and TV/movie fiction except for a matter of marketing. Moreover, red flags go off when the "reviews" are all 5 starred.  And  "winning an audience to your story" is a feel-good platitude  that says nothing because no one will write for no audience even if there be a catharsis or the like effect in that writing.

If we are to ignore his screenwriting qualifications, what qualifications, tangible or otherwise, does he have? Does he, for example, point to a classic novel and analyze how it might written/marketed today? Something along those lines where he does distinguish a type of fiction that is not obviously commercial but may be made so, or is his advice to never write anything of the type that does not fit a commercial-fiction formula?

179

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:
CFB wrote:

Absolutely, there is no determination of the value of the novella by the first three pages or first three chapters or all chapters until the very last word.

Anyone who thinks a sane person is going to read a 34,000 word (or thereabouts) novella with no merit until the very last word is obviously very proud of that last word. I suspect you should put that mindboggling word, whatever it is, a bit closer to the beginning. Take care. Vern

I have already said that you have no quality of mind to read it, and that is one purpose for the prologue -- to weed out the feeble-minded.

180

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

This was a book recommendation, not an invitation to a Jaegermonster bar fight.

You recommended a book written by an MFA in screenwriting, and I opine that a screenwriter has little to recommend for a novel/short story writer except in the broadest possible terms (i.e., have a protagonist). Your response almost proves my point in that you could not refrain from referencing LOTR, the movie series, and not the series of novels by Tolkien that barely resemble each other. If Matt Bird, MFA in screenwriting, has something for the novelist, does he actually use a novel as an example?

njc wrote:

This isn't script formula.  Yes, there's some large-scale plot and pacing advice but that's a small part of a big picture.
Item six in his big 13:  It's very hard to get audiences to care about any hero because they care about being hurt.

Every time I watch Jackson's Return Of The King there comes a moment, about two minutes after the cold open, when I ask myself if I really want to ride this emotional roller coaster again.

An invulnerable hero (the comic-book sort and many of the fantasy genre) is an extreme case of a character because he is not only not real but cannot be realistic, nor even an archetype of an ideal. So, your advice may, at best, apply to novel writing of a subset of one genre.

181

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Charles_F_Bell wrote:
Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

The fact of the matter, evidenced in my more recent fiction writing, is I find value in expressing more in fewer words, and, in fact, point to the folly of the naturalist detailing every single fact{*} while entirely missing the context and meaning of facts.
.

Great stuff. How's that working out for you?

Readers love nothing better than reading bullet points. Be sure to hi-light the pertinent words in case they are skipped over within the brevity.

What?

Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

The fact of the matter, evidenced in my more recent fiction writing, is I find value in expressing more in fewer words, and, in fact, point to the folly of the naturalist detailing every single fact{*} while entirely missing the context and meaning of facts.
.


Charles_F_Bell wrote:

What?

This I assume is some of your "more recent fiction writing" ?

A complete mystery thriller novel encapsulated within a single word? Brilliant. Breathtaking. A work of genius.

I was going to suggest to you a sequel called;

Where?

I was asking what you meant by: "Readers love nothing better than reading bullet points. Be sure to hi-light the pertinent words in case they are skipped over within the brevity" and what it has to do with what I wrote.

But you know that already.

182

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:
CFB wrote:

Exactly the sort of thing that you would not understand: irony being both the purpose and method of farce - that the book is, as I announce in the tagline: a novel experience in serious farce.

DEFINITION:
farce
/färs/
noun
noun: farce; plural noun: farces

a comic dramatic work using buffoonery and horseplay and typically including crude characterization and ludicrously improbable situations.

synonyms: slapstick comedy, slapstick, burlesque, vaudeville, buffoonery
"the stories approach farce"

antonyms: tragedy
•the genre of farce.

•an absurd event.
"the debate turned into a drunken farce"


synonyms: mockery, travesty, absurdity, sham, pretense, masquerade, charade, joke, waste of time; informal shambles 
___

So, which definition of "farce" are you using? I see nothing comedic within your verbiage. Additionally, to modify farce with "serious" as you do, seems to negate the purpose of farce, but then most of your arguments seem to negate either your current position or a prior one. I would concede that your literary depiction could be in the "absurd event" or "waste of time" category, but then it would be doubtful you would make that assertion about it, so please enlighten me. Take care. Vern

I provided insight into the subject with the posting in Literary Fiction Forum entitled "Serious Farce" , but I suspect that because you are not even a member of  the Forum you have and have had and will always have no interest in the topic or any novel purporting to be Literary Fiction and are never of the mind to understand the context of my Prologue to Remembrances and Reconciliation within farce that, not in 17th century drama, broadly means almost all of the synonyms you list above except, I'd like to think, "waste of time." Like a dead body presented in the first scene of a mystery, the words of the Prologue are an introduction to the story but the significance, the farcical nature,  of which cannot be determined until reading through to the end of story. Absolutely, there is no determination of the value of the novella by the first three pages or first three chapters or all chapters until the very last word. There is an absurdity in such a description of an event that does not happen like the absurdity that corresponds to Marxism, Climate Change, President Hillary Clinton and any number of things you, especially, cannot ever find absurd, or funny, and therefore you are well outside the demographic of anyone interested in the novella.  However, as things ought to proceed, you would have read the entire 34,000 words of the novella and provided critique/commentary in the means for which Premium members expect rather than as homeless gutter-dweller sniping at your betters leaving a fine restaurant.

183

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

dagnee wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

And it is an unnecessary complication of detail for Dil and Dagnee sticking their tongues out and whining that in spite of anything anyone might say, whether real (with sources fully annotated and verified) or imagined, they liked a particular crappy movie.

It seems to me you guys need to decide what qualifies as success: First week ticket sales or the total amount a movie makes over time. I was just pointing out that a few classics were not box office successes and some box office successes were not classics. I also think a good story, whether it be book, movie, tv show, opera, or Broadway play will find its audience and its message will not be diminished over the course of time.

If you want to characterize that as whining...okay. But personally, I think it's silly to waste all this time on a rabbit trail when the topic is a self help book for writers, not the worth of a syfy action movie. I agree with Jack, on the average the only thing 'how-to' books really do is enrich the bank account of the person who wrote it.
smile

Oddly, we are in agreement to the extent any of these off-topic parts of the thread go. My OP reply was essentially that getting advice from a movie/TV industry writer is not pertinent to the degree selling one's novel and making a living at script writing are quite different all the way to the extent of the measure of success. One can succeed by making a profit of $1.99 on a self-published novel after ten years (in the standard proposed by Dil Carver), and an entry-level Hollywood writer can make a net profit in one year on his contribution to a movie script before taxes of some $37K even if the movie never makes a profit. In most respects, it is like apples and oranges.

The top 6% of movies (i.e. those which made the most profit) provided 49% of all the money made by the profitable films.
Overall, it is 50:50 on any movie making any profit. But the writer gets his $37K either way.

https://stephenfollows.com/hollywood-mo … -a-profit/

It took me 20 seconds to "research" this on the internet to provide some sourcing of a fact -- and everyone knows every internet fact is always true and accurate. This concept of movie-industry profit I have already known for years before my extensive 20-second internet search, and anybody would know if he or she has had any interest in the subject.

184

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

The fact of the matter, evidenced in my more recent fiction writing, is I find value in expressing more in fewer words, and, in fact, point to the folly of the naturalist detailing every single fact{*} while entirely missing the context and meaning of facts.
.

Great stuff. How's that working out for you?

Readers love nothing better than reading bullet points. Be sure to hi-light the pertinent words in case they are skipped over within the brevity.

What?

185

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

vern wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

The fact of the matter, evidenced in my more recent fiction writing, is I find value in expressing more in fewer words, and, in fact, point to the folly of the naturalist detailing every single fact{*} while entirely missing the context and meaning of facts.

Funny for one claiming to express more in fewer words to invite us to evidence his recent fiction writing where he takes an entire prologue to tell us a truck and car didn't collide -- brilliant.

Exactly the sort of thing that you would not understand: irony being both the purpose and method of farce - that the book is, as I announce in the tagline: a novel experience in serious farce. I use such language as something to be pointed out in contrast to the message of overall simplicity in everything spoken, read, and thought. But your being rather a simple thing is itself an argument in real life, and not in idealized fiction, against simplicity.


vern wrote:

Of course you are correct in stating "the folly of the naturalist detailing every single fact"

And it is an unnecessary complication of detail for Dil and Dagnee sticking their tongues out and whining that in spite of anything anyone might say, whether real (with sources fully annotated and verified) or imagined, they liked a particular crappy movie.

186

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

Edge of Tomorrow (2014) lost $78 million and not because of bad acting or direction or lack of action/special effects or even the story's premise - it was the script,...

Dill Carver wrote:

It can’t find the quality of the script being attributed to the movie’s poor release performance anywhere on-line? Several other reasons are suggested but I can’t find anyone from the media or movie industry blaming bad scriptwriting for the poor initial audience figures?

Would you be so kind as to share the source of the article which identifies the script as the reason the movie suffered a slow audience take-up ?

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

A life led around by Google, eh?  I cannot reveal my sources as anyone who reads my profile understands.

.

I’m not your patsy, Charles.

Wow!  You give meaning to finding one's accusers out-of-touch with the reality of what else is out there in comparison.  Egotistical, diarrhea-mouth, blowhard ...

The fact of the matter, evidenced in my more recent fiction writing, is I find value in expressing more in fewer words, and, in fact, point to the folly of the naturalist detailing every single fact{*} while entirely missing the context and meaning of facts.

I learned from the age of twelve or so that the rejoinder "cite your sources" is pseudo-academic blather displaying ignorance of the subject matter because if one does not know what the sources might be, one is a pretender.

{*} in regards to this thread and TNBW generally, there is no good advice to describe characters' physicality, for example, unless there is relevance to the story - Boy meets girl who has red hair requires prior "red hair" description if the boy loves red-heads (or Irish, perhaps); otherwise, prose description is waste of words to write and to read. And the push to make a character, if not a kitten or adorable puppy, "likable" by way of described appearances is silly.

187

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:

Books I recall, used to be similar (at least here in the UK, I don't know about the US), where the first release run was always the hardback format with the paperback release following some months later.

Like it or not; understand it or not, NYT bestseller lists are composed from hardback sales, and the success of movies is determined by first-run theatre sales.  The reason is related to the fact that Amazon "reviews" are useless and the perishability of Kindle books. The time will tell factor is only important to historians and bean counters.

188

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

.Edge of Tomorrow (2014) lost $78 million and not because of bad acting or direction or lack of action/special effects or even the story's premise - it was the script,...

It can’t find the quality of the script being attributed to the movie’s poor release performance anywhere on-line? Several other reasons are suggested but I can’t find anyone from the media or movie industry blaming bad scriptwriting for the poor initial audience figures?

Would you be so kind as to share the source of the article which identifies the script as the reason the movie suffered a slow audience take-up ?

A life led around by Google, eh?  I cannot reveal my sources as anyone who reads my profile understands.

189

(27 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

#2 - perhaps too "busy" with the train, and the lettering for your name might be bigger. The color (too much Vit. B excretion in urine) for #1 is unattractive.

190

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:

As you mention again and again, the movie suffered a slow start in US theatres upon its release. However this did not prove to be a pattern and the movie recovered to become very popular and very profitable. The reason the release was slow seems be unclear to the industry and most theories that I can find upon the subject suggest the publicity and marketing were poor and the ambiguous title 'Edge of Tomorrow' failed to evoke interest.

In the direct democracy of free-enterprise capitalism, the ticket purchasing movie-theatre-goer is more equal than others, if only, at least, for the divvying up of profits to those directly connected to the movie rather than to those farther downstream. There are indeed two issues in maximizing profits - the second being irrelevant to this discussion and the first being the initial marketing puts people in seats for the opening weekend, and TET had a poor opening weekend, but the audience picked up, then leveled off. The word of mouth effect might have initially been good but never escalated. It neither fit those who wanted more cerebral or those who wanted more lightness. It certainly is a movie that is trying very hard to please everyone but pleased no one in the details of what makes a good, better-than-average movie because the script/theme/action/dialogue is everywhere at the same time. It is a poorly written and utterly unoriginal. In the country that invented the American "film", the movie, the U.S. ticket-purchasing movie-goer is the most discriminating in the world, not for any artistic reason -- that is the "film" -- but for American cultural values.  Whatever was good in War of the Worlds (the Tom Cruise version in 2005) as a family movie, supporting family values, more so than in the original, was completely absent in TET. The initial marketing for WoW was vastly easier than for TET, but it soared to a summer blockbuster because it contained underlying American values. Some have have suggested that TET is an analogy to the muslim alien invasion of Europe centered in France which can only be stopped by Anglo-American greatness in the face of adversity. If that were true, few could realize it in the thick, discombobulated plotline, and certainly no Hollywood personage is going to promote it. Moreover, the foreign audience and downstream American audience is too obtuse to pick up on that message, and the theatre-going audience is not wanting to look for that, unlike as for 300, for example, and more obviously American Sniper and 13 Hours while, of course, Hollywood distances itself from admitting to messaging in that way.

191

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

Again. The standard is what the movie made in its first run on U.S. screens. It cost $178M and made through the summer of 2014 $100M. What it did make a year later or might make by the end of the year 3074 on Mars is irrelevant.

How does that work?

Again. The movie cost $178 million to produce and it earned $392 million within the first 24 months

Again. The standard is: if the movie does not lose $78M on almost 4000 screens in the U.S. during its summer run, it is a success. If it could be predicted that foreigners, having notorious appetites for bad American films. would be the primary audience then the distributing to them might have been better than wasting distribution and marketing in the U.S. market which would be treated to "straight to video" or a run on SyFy that it deserved.

192

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

cobber wrote:

I saw the movie and actually enjoyed it. It had one of the more original plots for a sci-fi movie.

Which original part did you like best: War of the Worlds, Groundhog Day, or Looper?

193

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

The standard today is the same as in 1939: it if does well in the first-run U.S. theaters, it is a success, if not, not.  It doesn't matter how many Chinese see the movie on their bootleg versions.

I picked this particular movie because the script did stink. Awful, but tight to the success formula.

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

Edge of Tomorrow (2014) lost $78 million

In order to support or promote your opinion, you stated that the movie "lost $78 million" when actually the movie has made a profit of $213 million thus far.

Again. The standard is what the movie made in its first run on U.S. screens. It cost $178M and made through the summer of 2014 $100M. What it did make a year later or might make by the end of the year 3074 on Mars is irrelevant. It was an expensive movie to make because of bloated and unnecessary (to the plot) action scenes and the star-actors cost. It had little word-of-mouth power to draw people in after the first weekend because so many judged it as "meh."

My original point was that what a hack Hollywood (movie and TV) writer advises to write TO MAKE MONEY is pointless to a novelist at least for the reasons that he can write a script, and it usually creation by committee (and Edge of Tomorrow shows that abundantly) and so many other factors and calculations are at play that -- sure, the "writer" made money from his formula writing job -- but not all measures of success are the same inasmuch the pet rock of the '70's made money for its creative genius, for example, and so did the iPhone. Gone with the Wind as a movie was a success in the same way Gone with the Wind the novel was, but The Wizard of Oz as a movie was a success in a much different way than as a novel. Atlas Shrugged as a novel is certainly an enduring success (sales 2009-present nearly match sales with its release in 1957) but the attempt as a film (in three parts) was a flop. The novel written as a novel has had a different standard for success than attempts to script it for movie or TV screen.

194

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Helen Chambers wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
njc wrote:

I just spent an evening reading The Secrets of Story by Matt Bird.  It was a very well spent evening, and money well spent on the trade paper edition.

Looking to Hollywood hack writers for advice is looking to an industry that produces by far more failures than successes. Edge of Tomorrow (2014) lost $78 million and not because of bad acting or direction or lack of action/special effects or even the story's premise - it was the script, perfect to the formula in every respect.

Here's some other formulaic  don'ts

Stories written in present tense (especially third person present tense)
Stories with graphic dead baby scenes
Stories about writers
Stories about struggling marriages
Stories set in bars
Stories with more backstory than plot
Stories with undeveloped characters
Stories that are overly reflective

All of which  Edge of Tomorrow didn't do.

I assume that the conversation here is forum-wide and not private and it is okay to jump in?

There seems to be a mix-up here between script writing and written stories. Despite the quoted 'formula don'ts' that you seem to be applying to movie scripts, 'don't write in the present tense' breaks that 'rule' in about every movie script ever written.


Note: The Don't's aren't from Matt Bird's book.

Yes, I would say that there is general confusion on a real distinction between novel writing and movie making, and that is why I think, for the most part, there is little good advice to a novelist from Hollywood unless there is an established feedback loop as between Steven King and Hollywood since he stopped writing novels as anything other than proto-movies years ago.

Yes, in a real novel there is much narration but not in movies. Voice-over narration is nearly taboo for film unless the voice is Orson Welles (Silent Snow, Secret Snow) or Anthony Hopkins (Alexander), and present-tense third-person? (Ferris Bueller?)

195

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

.... Edge of Tomorrow (2014) lost $78 million and not because of bad acting or direction or lack of action/special effects or even the story's premise - it was the script, perfect to the formula in every respect.

There is information, misinformation, facts and the other stuff....

Edge of Tomorrow (2014) Suffered a disappointing box-office release weekend in the USA but recovered Internationally.

The standard today is the same as in 1939: it if does well in the first-run U.S. theaters, it is a success, if not, not.  It doesn't matter how many Chinese see the movie on their bootleg versions.

I picked this particular movie because the script did stink. Awful, but tight to the success formula.

196

(73 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

I just spent an evening reading The Secrets of Story by Matt Bird.  It was a very well spent evening, and money well spent on the trade paper edition.

Looking to Hollywood hack writers for advice is looking to an industry that produces by far more failures than successes. Edge of Tomorrow (2014) lost $78 million and not because of bad acting or direction or lack of action/special effects or even the story's premise - it was the script, perfect to the formula in every respect.

Here's some other formulaic  don'ts

Stories written in present tense (especially third person present tense)
Stories with graphic dead baby scenes
Stories about writers
Stories about struggling marriages
Stories set in bars
Stories with more backstory than plot
Stories with undeveloped characters
Stories that are overly reflective

All of which  Edge of Tomorrow didn't do.

197

(12 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Norm d'Plume wrote:

I agree with you, Janet. A few well-chosen tags can add a lot to a sentence. I also prefer italics to emphasize thoughts and, in my case, to represent mind-speech between characters. As for secret code, there must be a lot of double agents on the site, because I learned by emulating writers whose work I respect.

There is obviously nothing preventing you and your TNBW friends passing ungrammatical notes amongst yourselves because you understand each other.

However, there is no established rule for the rest of us that punctuation for any component of what is said or thought be in italics. It is established grammar that thought and speech be distinguished, at least at first, by dialogue tags.

correct

"I say," he said. "I think," he thought.
"She says," she said.

incorrect

"I say," he said. I think.
"She says," she said.

198

(12 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

My humble opinion b/c I know it carries no weight among many on this site, but s/he said gets BORING.

Certainly, your opinion counts here and anywhere. Your writing is of the workhorse in contemporary fiction and a model for anyone.

With dialogue tags or not, through explicit or implicit tagging, the established grammatical rule for writing dialogue is alternation. Once the order is established, a reader can figure out who has said or thought what. This may be from paragraph to paragraph or within any complex sentence.

He said. He thought.
She said.
He thought. He said.

He said, and she thinks; he said, but she says.

It is boring no matter how scintillating the plots and fascinating the characters to write 300 pp+ in such a fashion as: He said./She said./ This happened./That happened. He said./She said./ This happened./That happened. And on and on and on...

There is no established rule that punctuation for any component of what is said or thought be in italics. It is established grammar that thought and speech be distinguished, at least at first, by dialogue tags.

correct

"I say," he said. "I think," he thought.
"She says," she said.

incorrect

"I say," he said. I think.
"She says," she said.

Only the rule of alternation maintains.

Doubly incorrect

"I say," he said.
I think.
"She says," she said.

Because there is incorrect alternation from paragraph to paragraph, and because of some made-up rule considering italicization a form of dialogue punctuation.

199

(12 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Old man Max. That’s what Alec began to call me when he was ten. I replaced my Porsche with a Jag on my forty-ninth birthday. C’mon, how many times are you going to be forty-nine? The smart aleck said. Old man with his old-man car. I had thought him to be a quiet, even rather stupid boy, when he was little. A phone call in the night changed my mind. Should I kill them?

But by your such use of italics, those italicized words are Max's thoughts, not Alec's explicit words.

Norm d'Plume wrote:

Charles, did you intend for your last example to show as one paragraph? I can't decipher it.

Perhaps, by your use of the italics -- not standard English -- those italicized words are Max's thoughts and not Alec's explicit words. You wouldn't "decipher" them according to your special secret code. On the other hand,by standard application of italics:

1.    The italicized words are not Max’s in thought or speech. He is reacting/responding to them.
2.    The italicized words are emphasized.
3.    The italicized words are not within the immediate context of the present action or narration – at a different time and space.

taking apart the elements and including the phrases to eliminate ambiguity, That’s what Alec began to call me when he was ten. and The smart aleck said. we have...

"Old Man Max." That's what Alec called me from the time he was ten.  I had replaced my Porsche with a Jag on my forty-ninth birthday. Alec, the smart aleck, asked, "C’mon, how many times are you going to be forty-nine?" Before then I had thought him to be a quiet, even rather stupid boy, but later when he was twelve or so, a phone call in the night changed my mind. "Should I kill them?" he asked me ominously.

In both cases it is appropriate by standard English to put the entirety of narration in a single paragraph because a single person is telling the story, not two people having a dialogue.

In your example, however,
Jill hit Jack with a spoon. How dare he say vanilla ice-cream tastes bad.
"What did you do that for?"
"You're mean!" I need to play hard-to-get.

There is no context whatsoever to interpret the origin of those italicized words except by the non-standard-English secret code you learned somewhere.

Now, the reason I wrote the section the way I did and not in ordinary standard English that happens to provide more information, too, is because I am writing first-person narrative in a way Max speaks and not in a way that an author would have Max speak and suspiciously exactly the way the author speaks. The style is rather the point of the book -- not so much the particulars of plot and dialogue.

In Ken Kesey's One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest he narrates the novel through Chief Bromden, plodding and slow like a "dumb" Indian. That style can be annoying to a typical reader, but there's a point to it that expresses much that is not in diract plot and dialogue - even though I think Kesey beats his theme to death by the end of the book.

200

(12 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Norm d'Plume wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

Did you read part two of this topic? Bad writing:


Jill hit Jack with a spoon.
How dare he say vanilla ice-cream tastes bad.
"What did you do that for?"
"You're mean!"
I need to play hard-to-get.

I find the above difficult to read because I'm not sure who is thinking. Here's my amateur solution:
Jill hit Jack with a spoon. How dare he say vanilla ice-cream tastes bad.
"What did you do that for?"
"You're mean!" I need to play hard-to-get.

I have no problem combining a character's thoughts, actions, and dialogue in the same paragraph as long as they're related.

Again, in part 2 . . .

I argue that there are two competing ways to use italics to express words not explicitly said by a character, one non-standard (cannot be found in CMS, for example), and the other rule-bending standard. Your version is non-standard.

my version
Vanilla, yuck! So I hit Jack with a spoon. What did you do that for? "You're mean!" I need to play hard to get.
  - first-person limited

or

Vanilla, yuck! Jack says. So Jill hits him with a spoon. What did you do that for? "You're mean!" Jill thinks she needs to play hard to get.
- third-person limited

The reason I say the second is rule-bending standard:

1.    The italicized words are not Jill’s in thought or speech. (A standard use of italics.) She is reacting against them.
2.    The italicized words are emphasized.  (A standard use of italics.)

and if the italicized words are in past tense, but Jill's words and thoughts are in the present tense:

3.    The italicized words are not within the immediate context of the present action or narration – at a different time and space.

Vanilla, yuck! Jack had said. Jill hits him with a spoon. What did you do that for? "You're mean!" Jill thinks she needs to play hard to get.

Your non-standard use of italics to express an unspoken thought conflicts in derivable meaning from mine because by your use the words spoken by Jack could be words thought by Jill, whereas my words by Jack even if thought by Jill (as in recall, for example) are still clearly Jack's.

Okay, so we've used a trivial example to express some deep meaning when it really deserves completely standard treatment - there is no deep meaning, no real expression of "deep POV":


"Yuck! Vanilla?" Jack said.
Jill hit Jack with a spoon. "How dare you say vanilla ice-cream tastes bad."
"But why did you hit me with a spoon?"
"You're mean!" Jill said, but she thought, "I need to play hard-to-get."

but my example in part 2 on this topic  from my own writing compresses into a much shortened version of what is long story not all in the same time and place (three different time periods) so, the proper, standard use of italics is:

Old man Max. That’s what Alec began to call me when he was ten. I replaced my Porsche with a Jag on my forty-ninth birthday. C’mon, how many times are you going to be forty-nine? The smart aleck said. Old man with his old-man car. I had thought him to be a quiet, even rather stupid boy, when he was little. A phone call in the night changed my mind. Should I kill them?

But by your such use of italics, those italicized words are Max's thoughts, not Alec's explicit words.